Replace ‘Men’ with ‘Romanians’ in that article and see how generalisation would go down then.
Slightly risky post considering the demographic here is more than likely male but enjoyed this piece by WW, all things considered.
“No, I don’t want to get into lengthy debates about what I ‘could’ and ‘should’ do to be safe”
Has anyone seriously seen anybody try and victim blame the poor unfortunate woman who was killed? I’d be absolutely fucking amazed if it’s happened
Literally 100% of responses I’ve seen have been devastation, sorrow and anger
The reek is insecurity off lads here is immense. If you wouldn’t attack someone then good, but if people don’t feel safe why shouldn’t you do something about it.
It costs you fuckin nothing
Every aspect of this murder is absolutely horrifying and everyone has a right to feel out raged, especially women.
But the witty articles taking digs at men, social media campaigns with catchy slogans and marches through the streets aren’t going to change anything. Does anyone have actual tangible ideas on how this can be prevented from ever happening again?
WW cashing in on a day old murder. Classy stuff.
“Just let us vent at you and tell you to do more but never clarify what that means”
More outrage than people genuinely using #NotAllMen
Writing a satire article in the light of someone’s death is shameful
It’s dispiriting, really. What so many men in comments sections like this never seem to understand is that women aren’t necessarily asking you to feel guilt or not murder when you don’t do murders, we’re really looking for some empathy, some understanding of why events of this kind make women feel less secure, more wary in general. The sneering and anger don’t really help women to feel like you’re the good guys in this, to be honest.
As tragic as it is, there are valid points made my men about this too. Not necessarily about their role in things but about the situation in general. For example, the argument that criminals are going to be criminals. We can’t really expect social media campaigns and men’s support to stop this. It’s an issue with immoral people committing crimes.
I’ve been avoiding these posts all day because it hurts my head to see what the men of this sub and country have taken from this utter tragedy.
No one is calling you all murderers/rapists/abusers but what the women are trying to convey here is a point of vulnerability and yes inequality that we experience in a 21st century Ireland.
It is a hard truth that women have to be guarded in public to a certain extent more than men, everywhere. Ask your family members who are women: have you ever been followed, ever have a man call you a degrading slur after you rejected his advances on a night out?, ever been waking down the street and an 02 red transporter rolled down its windows so some lad and his mate could whistle or shout at you?
Ever been in a situation where you were with a man – could be a partner, father, friend and having a conversation with another man and asked him a question as the woman only for him to reply back to your male companion and barely notice you or look you in the face. That’s if he even bothers to acknowledge your voice at all.
Ever been in a supermarket to turn around and there’s some lecherous old chap behind you staring at your body?
Worked in a bar/restaurant where punters would give a cheeky slap or pinch? Then laugh it off “sure we’re only messing!, it’s a bit of craic!, smile more sure you look miserable.”
As a woman, these experiences are common. The only reason men try to deny this or are becoming defensive about mens behaviour is that you probably never experienced it first hand. Women being murdered is fortunately rarer but sexual assault is rather common however ‘mild’.
Thankfully the tide is shifting for the better from auld fellas beating their wives for not having dinner on the table at 5pm but lads, if you read this and think back to a possible time you made a woman feel uncomfortable for whatever reason then yeah, this is why women feel unsafe. Not just for the big murders like this poor girl.
I don’t expect you all to understand because it’s hard to put yourselves in womens shoes but Jesus Christ, try to understand the vulnerability. No one is calling you a threat but there’s a way to go before it’s completely safe to be a woman in the world.
All we can do is stand in solidarity with women and listen to what they are saying. Giving an opinion on something you can’t truly comprehend does more harm than good.
Posts coming up all over my social media about how men need to act and fix our shitty behaviour, while at the same time being told we’re not allowed be part of the conversation.
How interesting
Men, this is YOUR problem, why aren’t you doing something about it?
Also, men, just shut up we don’t want your input.
Women know its not all men. But it is most women….most women have had something bad happen at the hands of a man. Weather its the boyfriend that hit them, the guy who groped them in the bar, or the worse stuff.
You are asking what can be done. Here are some genuine suggestions to be helpful.
Don’t make suggestions about self defense, rape alarms, or appropriate routes to walk.
Don’t make excuses for friends who make rapey jokes about women – he’s not a “character”, he’s a creep at best, a pervert at worst. Same goes for jokes about hitting women.
As a man Don’t say “I’ve never felt unsafe in that place/ situation/ time”
Offer to walk your female friends home
If its late or night and you see a woman walking by herself Cross to the other side of the road. Or call your mate, partner, wife and loudly tell them you are almost home. You’d be surprised the comfort this could provide to someone who feels unsafe.
Recognise that no offence is meant to upstanding men in society. The women in your life are scared. This could have been any woman. She was going for a run. She did all the things women are told to do to keep themselves safe. And still she wasn’t.
Most men are completely horrified by what happened but are satisfied that they could never be the man in the situation.
Most women are horrified by what happened and terrified that the next time they could be the woman in that situation.
My sister was seriously and randomly assaulted by a teenage boy in the middle of a packed public street in a main Irish town about 10 years ago, entirely unprovoked. She didn’t know the boy. Her only theory for why passersby didn’t intervene was that “they must have assumed he was my boyfriend or my brother or something.”
I mean, read that last bit again.
EDIT: Getting a lot of comments about the bystander effect and people not wanting to get hurt themselves. I suppose I should have been clearer. I understand this is likely the case. What I was drawing attention to was my sister’s response. She’s a reasonable woman, and not stupid. For her immediate reaction in the aftermath of shock to be like “oh they probably thought he was my boyfriend or brother” just struck me as indicative of the sort of stuff women come to expect from situations of abuse. That it even came to her mind as a possibility is what struck me. If I spoke to her about it now, I’m sure she’d agree with all the stuff about bystander effect etc. It wasn’t really the intended point of my comment to suggest that people necessarily allowed her to be beaten because she’s a woman.
Nothing changed when Thiago Cortes was killed. Nothing changed when Urantsetseg Tserendorj was killed. There wasn’t half as much revulsion on social media or the media. Maybe the senseless killing of someone more relatable to the average Irish person is what it’ll take to stop the justice system turning sick violent fucks loose on us again and again.
Asking your Dad to not murder joggers is just saccharine clout chasing on the back of a tragedy. It’s time for the Gardaí, Courts, and Prison Service to give us some confidence they can actually protect us from these people.
Murderous sexual predators will always exist, no amount of training or awareness is needed because the vast majority of people are decent human beings, but there will always be murders like this across the globe.
“Not all men are rapists”.
No shit, mate.
Can’t wait to read the same arguments between people, who need their egos stroked, that we’ve read every time a tragedy of this nature happens.
“Teach men not to [crime]!”
“But surely you don’t mean all men!?”
this political point scoring especially used by certain ‘journalists’ in the aftermath of the poor girls death is disgraceful. First and foremost, Twitter should only be in overdrive now with tributes to what was by all accounts a lovely and kind human being.
Secondly, after a period of reflection there needs to be a real discussion in our country about prison sentences. This man should spend the rest of his life in jail. He possibly should have already been in jail. Until we get serious about protecting law and order, these things will continue to happen.
This is regardless of nationality/ gender. Those idiot journalists wonder why they’re hated. Well, when things like this happen they always make it about THEMSELVES.
This thread is absolutely amazing, so many comments doing exactly what the piece is satirising, alongside a whole load of butthurt lads who are actually offended.
You’d have to say that’s some effective satire.
Men are vital to this conversation. Spouting “not all men” or “of course I wouldn’t do anything like that” doesn’t help. Just try and put yourself in someone else’s shoes. Just because it doesn’t happen to *you* doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
I can’t wait to read the comments. Wish me luck.
It is absolutely horrific and I feel awful for her family and students. However I don’t fully understand how or why it has become a gendered issue. It was a senseless crime that could happen to anyone anywhere. Statistically speaking you are much more likely to be murdered or violently assaulted as a man, and more likely to be murdered by a stranger at random, whereas women are more likely to be murdered at home or by an ex partner. These are the facts, yet men still seem happy enough to walk about wherever without worry. Why is this? Its a terrible tragedy but I don’t see why its being politicised. Where I live tomorrow they are having a gathering/vigil in remembrance and to call for an end to violence on women. Like the solidarity and remembrance thing I understand and respect completely. But to call for an end to violence..? Like jesus why didn’t I think of that
Gender is a really ineffective predictor variable when looking for murderers. Nationality (say Romania as a random example) is as worthless. Even mental illness or mental health doesn’t skew as you might imagine.
But look at abusive parenting, and now you can start a conversation about causality. If you are interested in causality that is.
The sad and infuriating reality is that all the self defence in the world wouldn’t have saved that woman, or countless others, and that’s a really bitter fucking pill to swallow. It shouldn’t be difficult to understand that nobody wants unsolicited advice from someone who knows nothing about their problems and fears.
Look lads, the reason so many women are talking about feeling unsafe around men in certain scenarios, in general, in the wake of this horrific killing is likely because a high-profile event like this has made them think about *all the times they felt unsafe before*.
It’s not “using a tragic death to shame men” or whatever bullshit these guys are coming up with.
I feel genuinely sick to my stomach when I read about what happened to Aisling.
I understand why people talk about cultural issues when it comes to a lot of violent crimes against women, but I don’t see how this really fits into that pattern. With say, the Sarah Everard case, the policeman had exhibited a clear pattern of behaviour towards women which should have precluded him from holding a position of authority. That pattern was ignored by the police force (which is presumably mostly male). So we can see how broader issues of misogyny and how seriously we take violence against women come into it.
Here, a man murdered a woman in broad daylight in a very public place. It’s not clear that he has any connection to the victim, like being a stalker, or even that this crime was sex related at all. He was witnessed by 2 other people and was ~~caught almost immediately.~~ It’s so bizarre. These don’t seem like the actions of a sexual predator to me. Where does our general culture come into this?
Is this the kind of thing we can prevent? If we lived in a totally equal society, where the prevailing culture among men was strong condemnation of any kind of sexual harassment, misogyny, toxic masculinity, etc., would this kind of stuff just not happen ever? ~~Yeah he was known to the Gardaí, but had he done anything to indicate he’d do something like this?~~
I don’t think there’s any “educating your sons” out of something like this. This attack is so far removed from anything which is socially accepted. I don’t think we can eradicate rape or murder by changing our culture.
Edit: Turns out the suspect they had is definitely innocent, so that changes things. I think a lot of the stuff I’m saying still applies but obviously we don’t know the details (and neither do the people posting about it on Twitter).
lets not forget Urantsetseg Tserendorj in all of this either. that was an utterly vile crime that was glossed over.
men can be violent scum and we must do more to cut out the culture of male banter and chauvanistic bullshit.
but we should also be focusing on criminal justice reform. we can´t have it both ways. you can´´´´t end violence without investing in justice and crime prevention. Ireland is one of the lowest in Europe in this regard. which is it?
The arrested male has been eliminated as a suspect
When I see people shitting on about alarms or self defense in these situations it’s obvious they haven’t a clue.
It doesn’t matter if your a woman or a man who has self defence training if someone gets the drop on you and suddenly violently attacks you in a situation where it is unexpected your as good as dead if they want to kill you.
Real life violence isn’t a video game, you don’t have a hp bar… the first hit out of the blue could give you a concussion, wind you or cause serious internal damage… before you even have time to react the next one’s are coming in, outside of professionals who specifically train for a large portion of their lives for these situations most people would be goosed.
Sudden, ruthless and unexpected violence is far more deadly than many people realise.
The solution here isn’t self defence training its stopping the violence before it happens.
I honestly had to Google what this was all about, as I don’t follow the news much. Jaysus, horrific stuff, and she was really young too. How could something like this happen in broad daylight?
Sick of the judges that let these animals on the streets. I’ve read tons of cases of dudes with multiple sexually violent crimes get 3 or 4 year sentences. They are repeat offenders ffs.
I wonder how many lads are going through their comments from yesterday and deleting them now that the Romanian man has been ruled out. The fucking hypocrisy of the fragile wounded male ego.
Couldn’t help but be shocked reading about women’s experiences on Twitter yesterday. One woman said she was walking her dog in broad daylight and a car drove by, some young lad stuck his head out the window and screamed “I’d rape you if you didn’t have that dog with you!”
It’s fucking insane how different the world is for women.
39 comments
Replace ‘Men’ with ‘Romanians’ in that article and see how generalisation would go down then.
Slightly risky post considering the demographic here is more than likely male but enjoyed this piece by WW, all things considered.
“No, I don’t want to get into lengthy debates about what I ‘could’ and ‘should’ do to be safe”
Has anyone seriously seen anybody try and victim blame the poor unfortunate woman who was killed? I’d be absolutely fucking amazed if it’s happened
Literally 100% of responses I’ve seen have been devastation, sorrow and anger
The reek is insecurity off lads here is immense. If you wouldn’t attack someone then good, but if people don’t feel safe why shouldn’t you do something about it.
It costs you fuckin nothing
Every aspect of this murder is absolutely horrifying and everyone has a right to feel out raged, especially women.
But the witty articles taking digs at men, social media campaigns with catchy slogans and marches through the streets aren’t going to change anything. Does anyone have actual tangible ideas on how this can be prevented from ever happening again?
WW cashing in on a day old murder. Classy stuff.
“Just let us vent at you and tell you to do more but never clarify what that means”
More outrage than people genuinely using #NotAllMen
Writing a satire article in the light of someone’s death is shameful
It’s dispiriting, really. What so many men in comments sections like this never seem to understand is that women aren’t necessarily asking you to feel guilt or not murder when you don’t do murders, we’re really looking for some empathy, some understanding of why events of this kind make women feel less secure, more wary in general. The sneering and anger don’t really help women to feel like you’re the good guys in this, to be honest.
As tragic as it is, there are valid points made my men about this too. Not necessarily about their role in things but about the situation in general. For example, the argument that criminals are going to be criminals. We can’t really expect social media campaigns and men’s support to stop this. It’s an issue with immoral people committing crimes.
I’ve been avoiding these posts all day because it hurts my head to see what the men of this sub and country have taken from this utter tragedy.
No one is calling you all murderers/rapists/abusers but what the women are trying to convey here is a point of vulnerability and yes inequality that we experience in a 21st century Ireland.
It is a hard truth that women have to be guarded in public to a certain extent more than men, everywhere. Ask your family members who are women: have you ever been followed, ever have a man call you a degrading slur after you rejected his advances on a night out?, ever been waking down the street and an 02 red transporter rolled down its windows so some lad and his mate could whistle or shout at you?
Ever been in a situation where you were with a man – could be a partner, father, friend and having a conversation with another man and asked him a question as the woman only for him to reply back to your male companion and barely notice you or look you in the face. That’s if he even bothers to acknowledge your voice at all.
Ever been in a supermarket to turn around and there’s some lecherous old chap behind you staring at your body?
Worked in a bar/restaurant where punters would give a cheeky slap or pinch? Then laugh it off “sure we’re only messing!, it’s a bit of craic!, smile more sure you look miserable.”
As a woman, these experiences are common. The only reason men try to deny this or are becoming defensive about mens behaviour is that you probably never experienced it first hand. Women being murdered is fortunately rarer but sexual assault is rather common however ‘mild’.
Thankfully the tide is shifting for the better from auld fellas beating their wives for not having dinner on the table at 5pm but lads, if you read this and think back to a possible time you made a woman feel uncomfortable for whatever reason then yeah, this is why women feel unsafe. Not just for the big murders like this poor girl.
I don’t expect you all to understand because it’s hard to put yourselves in womens shoes but Jesus Christ, try to understand the vulnerability. No one is calling you a threat but there’s a way to go before it’s completely safe to be a woman in the world.
All we can do is stand in solidarity with women and listen to what they are saying. Giving an opinion on something you can’t truly comprehend does more harm than good.
Posts coming up all over my social media about how men need to act and fix our shitty behaviour, while at the same time being told we’re not allowed be part of the conversation.
How interesting
Men, this is YOUR problem, why aren’t you doing something about it?
Also, men, just shut up we don’t want your input.
Women know its not all men. But it is most women….most women have had something bad happen at the hands of a man. Weather its the boyfriend that hit them, the guy who groped them in the bar, or the worse stuff.
You are asking what can be done. Here are some genuine suggestions to be helpful.
Don’t make suggestions about self defense, rape alarms, or appropriate routes to walk.
Don’t make excuses for friends who make rapey jokes about women – he’s not a “character”, he’s a creep at best, a pervert at worst. Same goes for jokes about hitting women.
As a man Don’t say “I’ve never felt unsafe in that place/ situation/ time”
Offer to walk your female friends home
If its late or night and you see a woman walking by herself Cross to the other side of the road. Or call your mate, partner, wife and loudly tell them you are almost home. You’d be surprised the comfort this could provide to someone who feels unsafe.
Recognise that no offence is meant to upstanding men in society. The women in your life are scared. This could have been any woman. She was going for a run. She did all the things women are told to do to keep themselves safe. And still she wasn’t.
Most men are completely horrified by what happened but are satisfied that they could never be the man in the situation.
Most women are horrified by what happened and terrified that the next time they could be the woman in that situation.
My sister was seriously and randomly assaulted by a teenage boy in the middle of a packed public street in a main Irish town about 10 years ago, entirely unprovoked. She didn’t know the boy. Her only theory for why passersby didn’t intervene was that “they must have assumed he was my boyfriend or my brother or something.”
I mean, read that last bit again.
EDIT: Getting a lot of comments about the bystander effect and people not wanting to get hurt themselves. I suppose I should have been clearer. I understand this is likely the case. What I was drawing attention to was my sister’s response. She’s a reasonable woman, and not stupid. For her immediate reaction in the aftermath of shock to be like “oh they probably thought he was my boyfriend or brother” just struck me as indicative of the sort of stuff women come to expect from situations of abuse. That it even came to her mind as a possibility is what struck me. If I spoke to her about it now, I’m sure she’d agree with all the stuff about bystander effect etc. It wasn’t really the intended point of my comment to suggest that people necessarily allowed her to be beaten because she’s a woman.
Nothing changed when Thiago Cortes was killed. Nothing changed when Urantsetseg Tserendorj was killed. There wasn’t half as much revulsion on social media or the media. Maybe the senseless killing of someone more relatable to the average Irish person is what it’ll take to stop the justice system turning sick violent fucks loose on us again and again.
Asking your Dad to not murder joggers is just saccharine clout chasing on the back of a tragedy. It’s time for the Gardaí, Courts, and Prison Service to give us some confidence they can actually protect us from these people.
Murderous sexual predators will always exist, no amount of training or awareness is needed because the vast majority of people are decent human beings, but there will always be murders like this across the globe.
“Not all men are rapists”.
No shit, mate.
Can’t wait to read the same arguments between people, who need their egos stroked, that we’ve read every time a tragedy of this nature happens.
“Teach men not to [crime]!”
“But surely you don’t mean all men!?”
this political point scoring especially used by certain ‘journalists’ in the aftermath of the poor girls death is disgraceful. First and foremost, Twitter should only be in overdrive now with tributes to what was by all accounts a lovely and kind human being.
Secondly, after a period of reflection there needs to be a real discussion in our country about prison sentences. This man should spend the rest of his life in jail. He possibly should have already been in jail. Until we get serious about protecting law and order, these things will continue to happen.
This is regardless of nationality/ gender. Those idiot journalists wonder why they’re hated. Well, when things like this happen they always make it about THEMSELVES.
This thread is absolutely amazing, so many comments doing exactly what the piece is satirising, alongside a whole load of butthurt lads who are actually offended.
You’d have to say that’s some effective satire.
Men are vital to this conversation. Spouting “not all men” or “of course I wouldn’t do anything like that” doesn’t help. Just try and put yourself in someone else’s shoes. Just because it doesn’t happen to *you* doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
I can’t wait to read the comments. Wish me luck.
It is absolutely horrific and I feel awful for her family and students. However I don’t fully understand how or why it has become a gendered issue. It was a senseless crime that could happen to anyone anywhere. Statistically speaking you are much more likely to be murdered or violently assaulted as a man, and more likely to be murdered by a stranger at random, whereas women are more likely to be murdered at home or by an ex partner. These are the facts, yet men still seem happy enough to walk about wherever without worry. Why is this? Its a terrible tragedy but I don’t see why its being politicised. Where I live tomorrow they are having a gathering/vigil in remembrance and to call for an end to violence on women. Like the solidarity and remembrance thing I understand and respect completely. But to call for an end to violence..? Like jesus why didn’t I think of that
Gender is a really ineffective predictor variable when looking for murderers. Nationality (say Romania as a random example) is as worthless. Even mental illness or mental health doesn’t skew as you might imagine.
But look at abusive parenting, and now you can start a conversation about causality. If you are interested in causality that is.
The sad and infuriating reality is that all the self defence in the world wouldn’t have saved that woman, or countless others, and that’s a really bitter fucking pill to swallow. It shouldn’t be difficult to understand that nobody wants unsolicited advice from someone who knows nothing about their problems and fears.
Look lads, the reason so many women are talking about feeling unsafe around men in certain scenarios, in general, in the wake of this horrific killing is likely because a high-profile event like this has made them think about *all the times they felt unsafe before*.
It’s not “using a tragic death to shame men” or whatever bullshit these guys are coming up with.
I feel genuinely sick to my stomach when I read about what happened to Aisling.
I understand why people talk about cultural issues when it comes to a lot of violent crimes against women, but I don’t see how this really fits into that pattern. With say, the Sarah Everard case, the policeman had exhibited a clear pattern of behaviour towards women which should have precluded him from holding a position of authority. That pattern was ignored by the police force (which is presumably mostly male). So we can see how broader issues of misogyny and how seriously we take violence against women come into it.
Here, a man murdered a woman in broad daylight in a very public place. It’s not clear that he has any connection to the victim, like being a stalker, or even that this crime was sex related at all. He was witnessed by 2 other people and was ~~caught almost immediately.~~ It’s so bizarre. These don’t seem like the actions of a sexual predator to me. Where does our general culture come into this?
Is this the kind of thing we can prevent? If we lived in a totally equal society, where the prevailing culture among men was strong condemnation of any kind of sexual harassment, misogyny, toxic masculinity, etc., would this kind of stuff just not happen ever? ~~Yeah he was known to the Gardaí, but had he done anything to indicate he’d do something like this?~~
I don’t think there’s any “educating your sons” out of something like this. This attack is so far removed from anything which is socially accepted. I don’t think we can eradicate rape or murder by changing our culture.
Edit: Turns out the suspect they had is definitely innocent, so that changes things. I think a lot of the stuff I’m saying still applies but obviously we don’t know the details (and neither do the people posting about it on Twitter).
lets not forget Urantsetseg Tserendorj in all of this either. that was an utterly vile crime that was glossed over.
men can be violent scum and we must do more to cut out the culture of male banter and chauvanistic bullshit.
but we should also be focusing on criminal justice reform. we can´t have it both ways. you can´´´´t end violence without investing in justice and crime prevention. Ireland is one of the lowest in Europe in this regard. which is it?
Fucking state of this thread and sub in general.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0113/1273394-tullamore-murder-investigation/
The arrested male has been eliminated as a suspect
When I see people shitting on about alarms or self defense in these situations it’s obvious they haven’t a clue.
It doesn’t matter if your a woman or a man who has self defence training if someone gets the drop on you and suddenly violently attacks you in a situation where it is unexpected your as good as dead if they want to kill you.
Real life violence isn’t a video game, you don’t have a hp bar… the first hit out of the blue could give you a concussion, wind you or cause serious internal damage… before you even have time to react the next one’s are coming in, outside of professionals who specifically train for a large portion of their lives for these situations most people would be goosed.
Sudden, ruthless and unexpected violence is far more deadly than many people realise.
The solution here isn’t self defence training its stopping the violence before it happens.
I honestly had to Google what this was all about, as I don’t follow the news much. Jaysus, horrific stuff, and she was really young too. How could something like this happen in broad daylight?
Sick of the judges that let these animals on the streets. I’ve read tons of cases of dudes with multiple sexually violent crimes get 3 or 4 year sentences. They are repeat offenders ffs.
I wonder how many lads are going through their comments from yesterday and deleting them now that the Romanian man has been ruled out. The fucking hypocrisy of the fragile wounded male ego.
Couldn’t help but be shocked reading about women’s experiences on Twitter yesterday. One woman said she was walking her dog in broad daylight and a car drove by, some young lad stuck his head out the window and screamed “I’d rape you if you didn’t have that dog with you!”
It’s fucking insane how different the world is for women.