A separate nuclear umbrella for Europe? The prospect of a Trump victory is spurring a new debate over nuclear weapons

by NZZReporting

32 comments

  1. God I hope gets Trump elected. Until then Europe will be reliant on the US. Because that’s where the US wants us to be, dependant and helpless. And as long as they have their pawns in the EU, that won’t change. So let’s hope for Trump.

  2. Wtf are these fear mongering news? They reek of propaganda.

  4. The UK already has Nuclear Umbrella Assurances with a number of European Nations (most recently with Finland,prior to them joining NATO, and Sweden) and wider NATO allies ie most of Europe.

  6. European nuclear weapons would be the only deterence against a russian attack if trump gets reelected. No one can believe that he would give up New York for Warsaw or Munich. Only we can deter the russians with our own nukes. We could even work with South Koreans. They have the exact same problem as we do, deterence is only credible if putin/kim jong un has reason to believe, nukes would be used.

  7. A nuclear umbrella sure is good but not nearly enough. Europe already has non-US nuclear umbrellas to some extent, France’s and the UK’s. However, I would be surprised if the umbrellas, be it Washington’s, Paris’ or London’s, were used in the kind of scenarios we wish to protect ourselves from, that is an invasion of the Baltics or Poland, just as France probably wouldn’t respond to a limited invasion of Marseille with nuclear weapon.

    What we need is conventional deterrence, with massive and deep armies capable of responding fast to an agression and to prevent said countries from being overrun. We need more military expenditures or more coordinated ones. We need some military expenditures excluded from the deficit calculation so that countries invest more in them. We need more coordination and more common procurements. We need EU debt to kickstart our rearmement. We need to finally be conscious our security can only be truly provided by us.

  8. EU countries have been shitting on France’s nuclear umbrella for years. Refusing to invest in a EU made nuclear umbrella.

    They also have been welcoming US old B61 gravity bombs which are a massive joke of a program:

    – You host bombs for the US
    – Only the US president can order to use them
    – EU hosting country refuses to spend on defense so it gives all the financial burden to the US
    – The cost is that they have to buy a few US military programs (F-35) once in a while
    – They don’t have a serious and long term defense strategy

    We’re one election away from losing US military support in the EU. When it happens, EU politicians will be crying for help. Members should be panicking and build a sovereign and long term defense strategy.

    Reminder about France’s nuclear deterrence options:

    – the M51 is a submarine launched ballistic missile MIRV (10,000km range, 6-10 100kt warheads)
    – the ASMP-A is a nuclear air-launched cruise missile (Mach 3, 500km range, 300kt warhead)

    It would not be that hard to make the ASMP-A compatible on the Eurofighter for example. And more EU countries could invest in ballistic missiles submarines. France always have at least one in active service at all times.

  9. I think poland and lithuania should have a joint nuclear program. It’s obviously where an attack would most likely occur, and polish/lithuanian owned nuclear wepons would put the “but would NATO REALLY defend the baltics??” speculation to rest

  10. Remember that its the media who are pushing this conversation

  11. Uk is increasing its stock pile of nukes Europe has enough nukes….

  12. All eu states should exit the nuclear non proliferation treaty and resume development/manufacture

  14. Europe is a mudflap to protect the US homeland from the East so, they’re never going to give up their grip on their nuclear dominance/aerial superiority. Trump(ists) will blow hard and hype but there are limits to even what he can achieve in his quest to make everything worse.

  16. The nato umbrella includes the uk, so we’re fine. France is outside of the command and control of nato but again, would cover Europe.

    This is fine.

  17. I don’t get why we have this conversation because of the eventuality of Trump’s victory.

    Even if Biden get reelected, if there is an escalation between the US and China, I really doubt the USA would have time, and ressources, to spend on Russia.

    Now we are just waiting for the election of an other country to see if we are to do anything? That’s just shameless, honestly.

    A common and independent european defense is long overdue. What we are seeing now is just the result of years of inaction.

  18. I think the EU should have a nuclear umbrella regardless if Trump wins or not. It’s simply a question of national security.

    And develop proper conventional EU forces. Nukes are good, but they can’t be used in every single case

  19. East Europe needs the nukes, the west Europe have 0 shits to give, because they have UK and France to save ass.

  20. Every single day now a new article on why Europeans should fear Trump’s reelection lol. Propaganda machine took over this sub. Time for me to leave this sub.

  21. I honestly cant fathom how anybody could vote for this guy. I just dont get it.

  22. Berlin should be quiet about european politic. It was proven that Berlin has it wrong again, again and again.

  23. Ukraine proved that relying on the good faith of other powers has ZERO value.

    ​

    Nuke umbrella needs to be where it matters – The eastern border. So they don’t even try. In a nuclear war, these regions will be sacrificed.

    France and UK are not going to sacrifice and make themselves a target – NATO or not, they would rather deal with the consequences of not complying.

  24. What the fuck is the prospect of a Trump victory bollocks? The guy is not going to be president again. Yeah, sure, I know they said that last time but last time he wasn’t up to his neck in impending criminal convictions and he’s already off the ballot in some states with more likely to follow.

    All this talk of the prospect of his victory just emboldens him, he’s a loser, he’ll lose if he even ends up running. I’d be far more worried about the far higher likeliehood of him trying to sieze power again. He’d lose at that too, but cause a lot of havoc and damage to the US on the way.

  25. What we need in the EU is a way to deal with hybrid war tactics. Russia and China utilise propaganda, corruption and cyberwarfare to infiltrate and influence elections. Until we fix that, we’ll be a target. If we fix that, they’ll be forced to change tactics – which is something Russia’s proven time and time again is incapable-of. It’s always propaganda, subterfuge, assassinations and a war of attrition.

    However, I think EU should invest heavily not in nuclear deterrence, but into defense against it. I know an ICBM is immensely hard to shoot down, moreso when there’s hundreds of them, but it’s really just a complex problem needing to be solved. If we can somehow create a multi-layered defence system across all of the Europe, which can take-out 90% of what Russia can toss our way, we have a huge upper hand and don’t need more nukes.

    Moreover – installing such a system can’t be marked as a sign of aggression, if it’s only use is destroying incoming ICBMs.

  26. If it wasn’t spurred by Trumps election and four years in office then it’s not going to be spurred by the “prospect” of his victory this year 

  28. It’s not even if trump wins. It’s who comes after trump if he does win. This is the concerning part

  29. This isn’t about Trump. It’s about the American voter. Americans don’t want to continue being the global police anymore. It’s costing us too much and we can’t shoulder the load anymore.

    It doesn’t matter if Trump wins or not. Voters are, eventually, elect someone who will pull us out of our current foreign entanglements. Americans want to turn inward and work on their own country.

    I urge you to build your own defense. Don’t count on the US.

  31. Time for most EU states or at least the major ones to start their nuke programs, long gone are the times of no proliferation to avoid new states from joining the club, they got their nukes regardlessly (South Africa, Israel, NK and soon Iran if they already have them but keep it a secret)

    I personally wouldn’t trust the strategic defense of my country to just france or the uk (without offense, i admire both countries) as governments come and go and as well the willingness to uphold promises.

    So even living in a country that does not have any enemy i would sleep better if we have 6 or 7 more nuclear states in the EU (Spain, Italy, Poland, Romania, Netherlands, Sweden and anyone else) in a joint Umbrella program than just France and UK

  32. Well yes, Europe absolutely 100% needs to be militarily secure and independent from USA. Right now it’s like having a house with a fire insurance in a circus ran by meth junkies.

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