Dutch Minister Jetten proposes a European defense Ministry and to establish a European pillar within NATO that “can operate independently if needed.” [..] “We spend three times more than the Russians and yet are not capable to defend ourselves. This is an insult to taxpayers.”

Dutch Minister Jetten proposes a European defense Ministry and to establish a European pillar within NATO that “can operate independently if needed.” [..] “We spend three times more than the Russians and yet are not capable to defend ourselves. This is an insult to taxpayers.”
byu/EUstrongerthanUS ineurope



by EUstrongerthanUS

36 comments

  2. A bit hard to do when you got 2 EU members not part of NATO. Granted, threatening to kick them out of the Union if they don’t join NATO would be neat.

    Edit: some seem confused so just reread the title; guy’s talking about an EU defence ministry that’d be a pillar WITHIN NATO.

  3. Saying that we are not capable of defending ourselves is a bit of an exaggeration. But we certainly can do better, and I like the idea of intensifying European cooperation. Using Nato means non EU countries like the UK can participate without unwanted discussions about the EU. 

  4. This is the solution.

    Capabilities that I believe a united European defense would need:

    1. Conventional Prompt global strike equivalent.
    2. A large fleet of strategic nuclear stealth bombers.
    3. Robust nuclear deterrence through a trinity of bombers, land based ICBMs and nuclear ballistic missile submarines.
    4. Nuclear first strike counter-force capability. (Only if/after robust missile defence has been implemented)
    5. At least 5 super-carrier battlegroups. The real ones with ~90 fighter aircraft with large payload capacity thanks to catapults.
    6. Missile shields effective against large waves of ICBMs.
    7. Series produced rapidly and fully reusable 100 ton to orbit spaceplanes. (Big version of [this](https://www.polaris-raumflugzeuge.de/Technology/Light-Spaceplane-AURORA))
    8. Space force, for real. Fight and win large battles in the Earth-Moon system.
    9. Full autonomy in defense materiel production at large volumes, giving us the capability to fight and win a two-front WWIII (nuclear or not).
    10. Several hundred nuclear powered large frigates capable of keeping the seas free for global trade for all (but those that chose to wage war against us).
    11. Creating the industrial capacity to field laser weapons en mass down to the lowest levels. Only viable defense against non-civilian tech drone swarms.
    12. Capability to produce millions of military drones a year, under the assumption that Europe is under a full naval blockade. That’s necessary ammunition in today’s wars.
    13. At least two 6:th gen fighter programs focusing on different requirements. E.g. heavy fighter vs. light fighter.
    14. Massive research into human enhancement giving both new capabilities and preserving investments in previous generations when they remain viable for service longer.
    15. Civil defense capable of continuing society after a full nuclear exchange.

    Would probalbly require 4-6% of GDP and a Europe wide conscription. But it is a necessary sacrifice to preserve our liberty, way of life and peace. All for none of this capability never to be used in anger.

  5. Create a EU Army already.

    The EU is a fantastic project, but imo its foundationally stuck in the past. With China having grown to a superpower, Europe, even as the EU, has taken a backseat.

    Our approach to geopolitics is pretty limp dick. We are so focused on the constant infighting, that we cant organise ourselves to present a strong, united voice to the rest of the world.

    So, imo, we are at a crossroads where we either become the united states of Europe or inevitably splinter back into nationstates.

    We need a common Army, common foreign policy, common social policies and a common and clear strategy for industrial policies. As of right now, Europe certainly isnt realising its full potential.

  6. The US will not protect us forever. We need to build this today, so that we can rely on it tomorrow.

  7. Or we just help ukraine defeat russia??? This would be a lot cheaper and safer.

  9. He is right we need a collective protection that is not dependent on the us. I hope this changes really fast into reality.

  11. Hear me out. What if countries in middle of Europe give their defense budget to border countries?

    I swear that Finnish army with the German budget would be a sight to behold

  13. Jetten was ridiculed when he started out as a young lad, but as someone working in the Dutch energy transition I can say he’s been mightily effective in his job as energy and climate minister.

    He had a barebones staff and in two years he made the Netherlands from a renewable laggard to one of the highest ranking in terms of renewable energy per capita. He did this during two years of energy crisis and also managed to mitigate those crises.

    He’s someone that can get things done. That’s why he always looks so tired, he’s a go-getter.

  14. Let him talk, hey had never worked a 9-5 job in his life. Always was in politics

  15. that would be pretty cool to make life easier for eastern governments if the army is funded by EU directly. also a lot of eastern europeans might join the army if there are european level salaries and pension

  16. As a minister he failed miserably. His D66 party went from 24 to 9 seats in the Dutch parliament. He is a joke. But yes, we could and should do better. But with people like him it’s never going to happen and lots of tax money will be wasted on his neoliberal buddies who will make report after report about bullshit items like inclusion in the military.

  20. As an American I fully support this. Not because “fuck you guys”, but because “fuck us and our disfunction”.

    The irony is that this is just what Republicans here want you guys to do, so they will see it as a win.

    But, regardless, it would be the right moves for your continent to make and not have so much dependency on our whack asses.

  21. >We spend three times more than the Russians and yet are not capable to defend ourselves. This is an insult to taxpayers

    Ooooohh, so here we open the REAL world for ourselves, where we aren’t beating the d’s to MUH GDP on reddit, but realize that russians have much smaller wages and payments, so they can recruit many more people for same amount of money. They also have natural resources, so manufacturing costs less. And so on, and so on.

  22. Defend ourselves and take in more refugees?

    So, who are we defending ourselves from? Russia? LOL. Like Russia will ever start beef with a NATO and EU country.

    The problem is immigration. Look at what’s going on in Spain, Italy, and France. Those are real problems that seem to have no fix!

  23. There should not be any EU army without United States of Europe…
    I do not want to be dragged in a war against Russia by a army that does not respond directly to the nations and their related electoral base.
    As long as we are not a super nation like the US such a army is only a waste of taxes

  25. Yeah, that is because our militaries are not a mincer for recruits and we actually care for things like crew survival, proper training and specially, not embezzling funds.

    An Euro army is a good idea, yes, armies are always in need of reform and adaptation, yes, your example is insanely fucking stupid, you silly person.

  26. It’s an insult to taxpayers that we aren’t consulted on whether or not we want our money to go towards wars

  28. We spend three times as much because we are (at least) three times as rich.

    Its doesn’t really compute, looking at the absolute numbers. If that would be accurate all North Korea would have is some knights in rusty armor, but no, they have ballistic missiles, that most EU countries don’t even have.

  30. Not sure why this is needed when NATO exists.

    When would there be a situation where an EU force would need to operate independently to NATO?

  31. Rutte, front runner to be the next NATO chief, heavily opposes a European pillar within NATO.

  32. Europe had a chance to prove itself post Feb 2022. Thanks to Germany and France it failed. As a result Eastern, Baltic and central EU MS amoung others have very clearly stated European defense is predicated on NATO. Simple as.

    An EU alternative it to open to manipulation by larger countries and can be taken advantage of by free rides like Ireland or countries with pro russian oppositios/govs. There are just too many holes and issues in an EU centric approach.

    Not to mention an EU defence organisation it NATO minus three of the five largest conventional powers and two of the three nuclear powers. It just lack credibility at the moment. People who have been talking about it for years have done nothing to actually bolster and build European defense capabilities.

    Would I like to see a coherent and viable European defense organisation yes unfortunately it’s not going to happen.

  34. Well, after all that shit declared by trump, after US chiefs telling that they would prefer pacific military engagement, it’s pretty clear: Europe must be ready to defend it’s own boarders by self.

  35. I’m hesitant to cede more power to the EU. However it’s hard to deny that at least from a defense perspective, a collective military is more than the sum of its parts. I would insist this defense organ be entirely separate from what we know as the current “EU”.

  36. He is right. Europe has been living in a fantasy land for decades and it needs to wake up.

Leave a Reply