Im an American and was wondering if someone can explain the Hagia Sophia and Turkey thing.

13 comments

1. >Isn’t it a symbolic show of dominance over all Greek people

   Yep, that’s exactly why Erdogan did it.

   And let me be clear,

   as a Greek. I dont expect nor I want the Hagia Sofia to be an orthodox church like it used to be thousands of years ago.

   Hagia Sofia is an UNESCO world heritage site, it should remain a musuem and nothing more than that.

   > Also do you think that the American Government should be doing anything to help

   Well, if they want to call themselves “Leader of the free world”. Then yes, they should have done many things for the past decades about Turkish aggression in the area. But again, we are not stupid, we understand that Turkey is a country that USA must keep as an ally.

   About the Marshal plan. We also got many money from that (thing is we spend most of them for the upcoming civil war, but that is a different story). Of course, Germany and Italy got tons of money because A) Especially Germany, was literally destroyed from this war and B) The USA could not let Germany or France to end up as socialist states.

   Everything is about politics my friend

2. First of all , half of European countries said that they were THE NEW ROME but America wtf.

   I don’t know why you find the exploitation of weaker countries by stronger countries suprising. It’s happening today.

   The Greek people despise almost everyone except the serbs and cypriots. So we do have some historical trauma but we are biased as fuck. We think that everyone has wronged us and we were saints. This mentality has led us to be nationalists. See Golden Dawn.

   About the religious stuff i am not religious so i don’t really care if Muslims or Christians do stupid stuff. I find all them gringe. But the reason Turkey is doing those stupid stuff is propaganda and should be called out. Generally historical monuments should be preserved if they don’t offend.

3. Yep, we pretty much got the bad side of history and there is nothing we could do about it.

   Turkey is much a stronger state and more importantly, a much more valuable ally to the US than Greece ever will be. That gives enough space for the Turkish government to do whatever the fuck it wants with impunity.

   Constant let downs from Western allies left a country with an Anti-Western public and Pro-Western political elite.

4. Actually you are less ignorant than most people I have met. The only thing you got wrong is that we did benefit from the Marshal plan. As for how we’re putting up with it… We don’t really. But what else can we do? The reason Greece in this situation is because throught modern history they’ve been taking advantage of us. It’s not like we don’t understand they are, it’s that we don’t have a choice. What else could we do? The only reason Greece isn’t under the turkish rule again is because we have more allies. With turkey wanting to take the Agean sea (the only reason the western world has been on our side) we need more allies because even though we have a better army we’re severely outnumbered. And the worst thing is that there’s a huge portion of the people living in Greece aren’t greek but rather muslims (of different ethnicities but the muslim part is important because they’ll side with their “muslim family”) or albanians who, for some reason, tend to side with the turks. Not all of them, of course, but many. So the bottom line is, we are fully aware that we’re being exploited, that we’re Germany’s little bitches, but we have absolutely no other choice.
   As for Hagia Sofia… Again, what can we do?

5. To sum up everything under one simple answer:

   It’s all history. It happened in the distant past and we have more important things to worry about. Don’t get stuck up like that!

6. I really didn’t understand what the question is.

   If you ask why our allies only use Greece and never support when there is need, answer is because they have to protect their own plans and interets. Politics is a dynamic think, always changing. They don’t help Turkey either. Look what they have done to the Ottoman empire. So, many of us understand that. We also understand that if you have the means (wealth, energy, power) you react. If not, you try to survive.

   If you ask why Greeks do nothing, the answer is the same. Because Greece has no power enough to do something and because our “allies” don’t want us to do anything. We are just a pressure control for the Turks and the opposite too. If Greece or Turkey try to do something the “allies” don’t agree with, be sure there gonna be bad consistences. And we both know that.

7. In short, Turkey bad, Greece good.

   /s

8. I am just gonna stay on the Mount Rushmore example you provided and let you figure it out. Mount Rushmore before USA as we know it, belonged to a native tribe called Lakota. It was a religious place for the tribe called Six Grandfathers Mountain, the most sacred spot for that tribe. The European immigration there, basically stole the area. The mountain then was sculpted by a member of the KKK that decided it should represent the American exceptionalism. You can read more [here](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/article/the-strange-and-controversial-history-of-mount-rushmore)

9. >Isn’t it a symbolic show of dominance over all Greek people???

   It’s a shame whenever any cultural landmark is re-appropriated and modified but this bullshit needs to stop. It’s been 500 years since it became a mosque then a museum and then a mosque again we need to get over the histrionics of “LE INSULT TOWARDS LE GREEK PEOPLE!”.

   Even if that’s the intent we look like idiots spazzing out over it.

10. Nationalistic publicity stunts and warmongering is artificially created by elites as a tool to deflect internal anger towards them, and the elites of receiving countries respond in kind, to also try and deflect internal anger towards them. In Greece, Turkey, the US and every other country in the world. This isn’t a genuinely popular thing. This tactic is being followed for centuries.

11. Yeah dont worry greeks think that they are the new Byzantines, and germans, russians, serbians, french and italians think they are the new romans. A lot of competition. Now, Hagia sofia is a very important sign of religion, especially during the thrive and the fall of Constantinople. When turkey decided to make the used to be museum, a mosque, the greek state department and a lot of international heritage organisations( including unesco) were opposed to the idea. Now why is it important for greeks specifically? Basically because greece( independent from 1832) wanted to expand and take back areas with greek population. That was the main policy of the country from 1845 till 1940s. As you can understand, when a country’s whole reason of existence is based on border expansion, in combination with the idea that we are the next byzantine empire, the idea of taking back the whole Constantinople ( or instabul) was very very widespread. It still is, but not to that extent. So, international heritage aside, a lot of people have the dream of taking back the city and make it greek. And hagia sofia was the symbol of greek presence in the city of instabul.

    Now dont get confused, the byzantine empire was not greek. Greece adopted the byzantine way of life, and based its laws on the roman-byzantine law, not the other way around (Even though byzantine empire adopted greek, due to the extent that they were spread, and due to the borders of the empire cause the biggest portion of the population was speaking greek at the time it was adopted). Its just that a lot of people in greece today cant get that byzantium wasnt greece, greece didnt exist till 1832 as I mentioned earlier. Hope I helped

12. On the other hand, modern Greece has achieved more than it would have hoped for. When the byzantine empire died, roman greekness died with it. Modern greeks are a different nation, greek speaking christian ottomans with fractured and contaminated national memory. It was not a revival, but the birth of a new nation , and it managed to expand itself beyond what it hoped. It found itself with democratic order and with allies in western europe , while there are still to this day ottoman populations who are persecuted (kurds) and others that went extinct (assyrians).

    As a new nation, modern greece has a problem of trust, and still has not finished building a proper, impersonal State. This led to a 2-century history that was shaky and difficult. The Greek state didn’t even pursue the recognition of the Greek genocide of 1915-20 until the 90s , because of various circumstances. Being a small state with no natural allies, it s going to be hard to be militarily powerful against Turkey unless it becomes a second Israel, which is not what greeks want. Hence the only avenue for escaping humiliations is via international law and european alliances. But europeans are also notoriously machinistic and backstabbing hence the success will only be spotty..

    That said, as you are american, you should know that the Greek state took inspiration from americans and still looks up to you, and you have been probably our most reliable ally, even when accounting your support for the military junta.

    But I ‘m rambling, so to come back to your original point, the reason why greeks dont go on massive twitter crusades against Turkey’s medieval practices that are deliberately and publicly insulting is that greeks are white and christians, and thus don’t make the list of who’s allowed to be a victim.

13. Hi OP, so I’ll try my best from my perspective to answer some questions.

    On some things, you hit the nail on the head. Other things are a bit more complicated, and on others, you have some misconceptions (which you share with some Greeks). I think that you’ve read just some limited things n Greek history, so I would encourage you to read up some more.

    And I don’t fully agree with everything that’s been said, so here’s my attempt to answer your questions:

    >Your country just suffered from constantly being in wars back to back to back and it seems like the Europeans exploited you over and over again with empty promises.

    Well, no, this isn’t true.

    Firstly, we Europeans have *all* been killing, warring, backstabbing *each other* for centuries. How many wars have France and Germany fought? How many times were the Benelux countries invaded by France and Germany? How many times has Poland been pushed around, invaded, and divided? How many times have the Danes and Germans fought over Schleswig-Holstein? How much territory did Germany lose after their expansionist adventures in the two world wars? How much historical Dutch-speaking or historical German-speaking or historical Catalan-speaking territory is part of *France*? What’s going on now between Russia and Ukraine? How much of Ireland is still British (due to centuries of British settlement in a significant chunk of the island?) These are just the tip of the iceberg. So, no, it’s not “the Europeans” vs us. It’s *all of us* Europeans backstabbing *each other*.

    That said, we also received *immense* help from the rest of Europe. You mentioned Britain, which -along with Russia and France- helped us fight off the Turks in the 1820s and establish a sovereign state. The Greek Revolution became a popular cause across Europe, and many people from all over Europe, including many Brits, came to Greece and risked their lives -some gave their lives- *for Greece*. They didn’t have to. Britain kept Cyprus, but gave us the Ionian Islands in 1864. (BTW, Cyprus is an independent state now, so Britain didn’t keep it that long).

    You also mentioned Italy. After the Ottomans had chipped away at Greece and finally taken Constantinople, the Venetians and Genoese fought the Ottomans for centuries to free us from them. They were fighting to take us under their own possession, sure. But we preferred Italian rule over Turkish rule (after all, we were a single country with Italy under the Roman Empire for like, what, thousand years? from the Roman Republic’s absorption of Greece to Byzantium losing Italy). The Venetians and Genoese got to control many key areas of Greece, and *those* areas got to experience the Renaissance and Enlightenment…Greek intellectuals, artists, etc from Ottoman-controlled areas of Greece fled to Venetian-controlled areas of Greece (Crete and Corfu are the two big centers of the Greek Renaissance) or to Italy itself, which sheltered many Greeks. Countless artists, intellectuals, you name it…we have Greek Renaissance painters represented in museums in Venice, we have Greeks that went on to work as explorers for Spain (as an American you may have heard of Juan de Fuca who worked for Spain, his Greek name Ioannes Fokas), and I’m sure you’ve heard of the artist El Greco who mostly made a name for himself in Spain. The Italians have been far, far, far, far, far more helpful in our history than unhelpful -even if they’ve done it for their own interests. Mussolini is just an anomaly.

    Eventually, the Enlightenment would also reach Ottoman-controlled areas of Greece. Although Ottoman-controlled areas of Greece were held back, behind Venetian-controlled areas and the rest of Europe…Greeks eventually became the seafarers and middle-class merchants of the Ottoman Empire and those that could afford it would send their sons to be educated in Italy, France, Austria, or Russia… So it’s not all “poor us”, I hate that narrative we tell ourselves about post-1453 Greece, because it’s unfair to all the cool stuff that we were still able to accomplish, and other Europeans continuing to help us out and -yes- giving their lives for us.

    Also, keep in mind that when the modern Greek state achieved its independence, it was only the Peloponnese and Rumely regions, and Cycladic Islands. Over the next 100 years -again with the blessing of most of the rest of Europe- we were able to liberate other Greek-majority or Greek-plurality areas, and regain most of our historical core, something that would *never* have been allowed by the international community if we started that process a century too late.

    So, the one-dimensional view of the “oh woe is us” is unfair to a lot of the help we did get, and also ignores a lot of realities on the ground. As the Ottoman Empire was disintegrating, there were several ethnic groups in southeast Europe with overlapping land claims. So what’s the international community to do? Bulgaria had been eyeing northeast Greece, even got to occupy it in WWII, but they didn’t get to keep it. Today’s borders are actually pretty close to where [ethnic groups lived in the late 19th century](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleftherios_Venizelos#/media/File:Balkans-ethnique.JPG), with some population exchanges here and there. In the 1920s, it was Greece *plus Italy and France* against the Ottoman Empire. So, if we were “backstabbed” by the Brits, then Italy and France were too. If you want my personal opinion: it was a stupid mistake to invade Smyrna and try to expand Greece into *Asia*. Yes, I know that Greeks hugged the Anatolian coast, but it would have made far more *geographic and* *practical* sense to not overreach ourselves and just focus on regaining Eastern Thrace.

    So that was *our* blunder.

    So, me personally, I hate the “oh woe is us” narrative, because we’ve actually done very well gradually rebuilding ourselves in the past 3-4 centuries after a huge setback in the 15th century. And now, with the EU, and tons of EU money and private investment going into infrastructure projects all over the country, we can’t blame other Europeans for our problems.

    >After ww2 Germany and France received tons of aid from the US (called the marshal plan which was 15$ billion dollars). what did Greece get? a pat on the back and a good job?

    Greece got *a ton* of Marshall Plan money too from the US. (You can’t compare total figures, because we’re a much smaller country than France and Germany, and also had a far lower cost of living. Italy also got far less than Britain, despite being similar in size, but Italy had a far lower cost of living). The Marshall Plan money is partly why we had one of the world’s fastest growing economies in the 60s, and spearheaded from developing into developed and industrialized country. Most of the country didn’t have electricity or indoor plumbing in 1950; by the 1960s, coverage was 100%.

    OTOH, our governments sorta squandered quite a bit of the money. Rather than investing it into R&D and other things to help build a robust private sector, they just built up a bloated state to employ all these unskilled rural voters moving to the cities from the rural areas, and give away public sector jobs doing nothing. It’s part of what got us into the 2010s crisis. And a lot of the US money also went to the military (which was necessary). But to large extent, the US didn’t much care what our governments did with a lot of the money -and bless your hearts.

    In contrast, the EU enforces that funds actually go to infrastructure projects. And the EU also requires that the private sector be allowed to get involved, and that private companies from throughout the EU have the right to submit tenders…cutting down on nepotism. And the accountability works; from the 90s to today, there’s been a *massive* improvement in transportation infrastructure. The US just threw money at our governments -without much accountability- to keep us away from communism. And bless your hearts.

    The *two* shitty thing you guys did was support the 1967 junta, and discontinue the sanctions on Turkey for occupying and sending settlers to northern Cyprus. And that’s what contributed to couple decades of anti-Americanism in the 80s and 90s (which has hugely waned now, and opinions of the US are now on the up, up, up).

    But you *did* send a lot of money in the 50s and 60s, and a lot of that helped.

    More continued below: