I don’t get stuff like this because kids can use nicknames, go by middle names, change surname when parents split or remarry. Would this teacher also refuse and only call a child by given birth name? Colleagues too? Their comments do make them sound generally anti-trans rather than making any other kind of stand or point. Funded by the usual dodgy US Christian groups perhaps?
Why are some people so dead set against saying a few words? “They” is a normal word that can be directed at any gender. I can’t believe people get so upset about seeing a “they” instead of a “he” or whatever. It takes less effort to just correctly label someone.
Honestly given their behaviour this seems reasonable. The student was 17 so hardly a child and the teacher was just refusing to use their chosen name or pronouns.
I have a double barrelled first name. I only go by the first half (feebsie-gee, get called feebsie) and no teacher had any trouble doing that. Some would forget, especially doing the register, but once I corrected them I usually got an apology and they used the name I go by. It’s not difficult?
We had a teacher that would refuse to call you Joe instead of Joseph. Not only refused it, but if you asked “Could you call me Joe” he would mock you in front of the entire class. He also came up with nicknames for some kids in the class and call them by that instead.
Cunt.
This is the second time I’ve seen someone say that “being asked to use pronouns is compelled speech” in as many days and I disagree – for those who do agree with JKR/This teacher, can I ask some questions?
One – is “saying this is not allowed” compelled speech, or it is specifically being forced to say something you don’t agree with? And by extension, was the teacher required to use correct pronouns and got in trouble for not, or was it a case of “going out of their way to misgender the student”?
Two – how does it interact with legality? Is it “compelled speech” for a racist to be told to teach that all races are equal, or for a holocaust denier to have to teach the holocaust?
I’m torn between “people should be free to believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn’t hurt others” with “if it was a teacher sacked for refusing Judaism because they’re anti-semite then they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on”.
Gender Reassignment Status is one of the protected characteristics as of the Equalities Act, so can see it being a big issue from that pespective, and in his quotes he’s talking about students being “pushed to transition” so that doesn’t bode well for his objectivity.
Personally think it’s just the classic “be excellent to each other” system – if someone said they wanted to be referred to as John, Joan or Slagathor, it’s a bit of a dick move to deliberately choose not to follow their request. It’s selfishness, basically, going “my opinion and satisfaction is worth more than your opinion and happiness”
People might look at this and think people like this made a mistake or forgot. NO this is deliberate misgendering of a person who has asked for a bit of decency when being addressed.
[removed]
Imagine being five years off retirement and ruining the rest of your career due to social media brain rot talking points.
Was it really so difficult just to use this person’s preferred name?
Imagine this being the hill you want to die on.
I really don’t understand the problem … just call people whatever they want to be called. What skin is it off his nose?
The stupid thing about this is that I guarantee some of the transphobes saying that “we should only use people’s ‘real’ names” or the like go by nicknames themselves. And if they are trying to apply it to only trans people then it raises some interesting edge cases. I know at least one cis woman who is universally known as Charlie. To the point that she would probably not realise you were talking to her if you called her Charlotte. I know a man named Jamie who goes by Jeff, and a woman named Eleanor who goes by Poppy, including to her parents. How would you make it okay to do that while also not allowing it for trans kids? Because if you do then it not only is blatant discrimination, its *obvious* discrimination, which I think some people want to avoid since it allows them to get away with more.
And because I’m petty, let’s see how a certain author would be willing to publish everything as Joanne Rowling instead of either JK or Robert Galbraith.
We use a person’s pronouns chiefly in their absence. If you really don’t want to use someone’s chosen pronouns you can just *not talk about them*. Some people will also use slightly awkward circumlocutions (“please pass John’s pen to John”).
I have a child with a name that is commonly shortened, but she prefers that I don’t shorten it. Let’s pretend it’s Catherine. Catherine asks teachers to call her Cathy, and they all manage it. Her exam certificates say Catherine but emails from her teachers say Cathy. Easy peasy.
I have another child with a name that is commonly shortened, but who uses a less obvious nickname. This is more like Elizabeth nn Queenie. Child doesn’t answer to Elizabeth and honestly sometimes we forget that’s what her birth certificate says. We asked school to call her Queenie. One teacher flat refused despite our formal paperwork and multiple meetings with SLT. She would try to get Queenie’s attention by calling her Elizabeth and then get furious when she didn’t respond. She was perfectly capable of calling an Edward Ted or a Margaret Peggy, mind you, even without a “known by” on the paperwork.
At Queenie’s next school we filled in the paperwork exactly the same way, everyone is totally cool with the idea, and we have had precisely zero issues.
Which is to say that although gender wasn’t an issue in our case, I understand how easy it actually is for schools to accommodate “known by” names if they choose to, and how distressing it can be if an individual teacher chooses not to.
Imagine being an adult and caretaker this petty. How embarrassing. Like steadfastly refusing to call a kid Mike when they prefer it over Michael.
I’m sure this will help with the teacher shortages.
The teacher was being a total bastard. Can’t believe something so small got this far but frankly it’s the teachers stupid fault
Good. If the man managed (at least) a bachelor’s degree in education, he should have the capability to call someone the correct pronoun. If he is that ignorant, he has no place around children.
Call them by whatever name they want to be called? Use whatever pronouns they want too. You do t have to believe they are a woman/man, but to should respect their right to be addressed how they want.
How the fuck is this so difficult?
The compelled speech argument is a strange one. I have heard Jordan Peterson use it, not sure if he dreamt it up.
Is it compelled speech if cis students expect to be known by the correct pronouns? Would a teacher expect to be able to single out a cis male student and always call him “she”, or vice versa?
I suppose if someone chose some outlandish pronouns a teacher might object. But if a student simply wants to be referred to as he/him how is that compelled speech?
Your validation to them as a teacher is mandatory, like it or not, they have the power.
20 comments
I don’t get stuff like this because kids can use nicknames, go by middle names, change surname when parents split or remarry. Would this teacher also refuse and only call a child by given birth name? Colleagues too? Their comments do make them sound generally anti-trans rather than making any other kind of stand or point. Funded by the usual dodgy US Christian groups perhaps?
Why are some people so dead set against saying a few words? “They” is a normal word that can be directed at any gender. I can’t believe people get so upset about seeing a “they” instead of a “he” or whatever. It takes less effort to just correctly label someone.
Honestly given their behaviour this seems reasonable. The student was 17 so hardly a child and the teacher was just refusing to use their chosen name or pronouns.
I have a double barrelled first name. I only go by the first half (feebsie-gee, get called feebsie) and no teacher had any trouble doing that. Some would forget, especially doing the register, but once I corrected them I usually got an apology and they used the name I go by. It’s not difficult?
We had a teacher that would refuse to call you Joe instead of Joseph. Not only refused it, but if you asked “Could you call me Joe” he would mock you in front of the entire class. He also came up with nicknames for some kids in the class and call them by that instead.
Cunt.
This is the second time I’ve seen someone say that “being asked to use pronouns is compelled speech” in as many days and I disagree – for those who do agree with JKR/This teacher, can I ask some questions?
One – is “saying this is not allowed” compelled speech, or it is specifically being forced to say something you don’t agree with? And by extension, was the teacher required to use correct pronouns and got in trouble for not, or was it a case of “going out of their way to misgender the student”?
Two – how does it interact with legality? Is it “compelled speech” for a racist to be told to teach that all races are equal, or for a holocaust denier to have to teach the holocaust?
I’m torn between “people should be free to believe what they want to believe as long as it doesn’t hurt others” with “if it was a teacher sacked for refusing Judaism because they’re anti-semite then they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on”.
Gender Reassignment Status is one of the protected characteristics as of the Equalities Act, so can see it being a big issue from that pespective, and in his quotes he’s talking about students being “pushed to transition” so that doesn’t bode well for his objectivity.
Personally think it’s just the classic “be excellent to each other” system – if someone said they wanted to be referred to as John, Joan or Slagathor, it’s a bit of a dick move to deliberately choose not to follow their request. It’s selfishness, basically, going “my opinion and satisfaction is worth more than your opinion and happiness”
People might look at this and think people like this made a mistake or forgot. NO this is deliberate misgendering of a person who has asked for a bit of decency when being addressed.
[removed]
Imagine being five years off retirement and ruining the rest of your career due to social media brain rot talking points.
Was it really so difficult just to use this person’s preferred name?
Imagine this being the hill you want to die on.
I really don’t understand the problem … just call people whatever they want to be called. What skin is it off his nose?
The stupid thing about this is that I guarantee some of the transphobes saying that “we should only use people’s ‘real’ names” or the like go by nicknames themselves. And if they are trying to apply it to only trans people then it raises some interesting edge cases. I know at least one cis woman who is universally known as Charlie. To the point that she would probably not realise you were talking to her if you called her Charlotte. I know a man named Jamie who goes by Jeff, and a woman named Eleanor who goes by Poppy, including to her parents. How would you make it okay to do that while also not allowing it for trans kids? Because if you do then it not only is blatant discrimination, its *obvious* discrimination, which I think some people want to avoid since it allows them to get away with more.
And because I’m petty, let’s see how a certain author would be willing to publish everything as Joanne Rowling instead of either JK or Robert Galbraith.
We use a person’s pronouns chiefly in their absence. If you really don’t want to use someone’s chosen pronouns you can just *not talk about them*. Some people will also use slightly awkward circumlocutions (“please pass John’s pen to John”).
I have a child with a name that is commonly shortened, but she prefers that I don’t shorten it. Let’s pretend it’s Catherine. Catherine asks teachers to call her Cathy, and they all manage it. Her exam certificates say Catherine but emails from her teachers say Cathy. Easy peasy.
I have another child with a name that is commonly shortened, but who uses a less obvious nickname. This is more like Elizabeth nn Queenie. Child doesn’t answer to Elizabeth and honestly sometimes we forget that’s what her birth certificate says. We asked school to call her Queenie. One teacher flat refused despite our formal paperwork and multiple meetings with SLT. She would try to get Queenie’s attention by calling her Elizabeth and then get furious when she didn’t respond. She was perfectly capable of calling an Edward Ted or a Margaret Peggy, mind you, even without a “known by” on the paperwork.
At Queenie’s next school we filled in the paperwork exactly the same way, everyone is totally cool with the idea, and we have had precisely zero issues.
Which is to say that although gender wasn’t an issue in our case, I understand how easy it actually is for schools to accommodate “known by” names if they choose to, and how distressing it can be if an individual teacher chooses not to.
Imagine being an adult and caretaker this petty. How embarrassing. Like steadfastly refusing to call a kid Mike when they prefer it over Michael.
I’m sure this will help with the teacher shortages.
The teacher was being a total bastard. Can’t believe something so small got this far but frankly it’s the teachers stupid fault
Good. If the man managed (at least) a bachelor’s degree in education, he should have the capability to call someone the correct pronoun. If he is that ignorant, he has no place around children.
Call them by whatever name they want to be called? Use whatever pronouns they want too. You do t have to believe they are a woman/man, but to should respect their right to be addressed how they want.
How the fuck is this so difficult?
The compelled speech argument is a strange one. I have heard Jordan Peterson use it, not sure if he dreamt it up.
Is it compelled speech if cis students expect to be known by the correct pronouns? Would a teacher expect to be able to single out a cis male student and always call him “she”, or vice versa?
I suppose if someone chose some outlandish pronouns a teacher might object. But if a student simply wants to be referred to as he/him how is that compelled speech?
Your validation to them as a teacher is mandatory, like it or not, they have the power.