Only slight apologies for the incendiary title. Please try and understand my point of view before going off, though I anticipate this isn't a very controversial take. This post is in response to public statements by politicians and other public figures I've seen so far, which to me represent an over-reliance on the state's ability to problem-solve situations like this, and are also missing the point.
I decided to watch an old interview with Pekka-Eric Auvinen's parents on Vimeo, spurred by yesterday's news: https://vimeo.com/111111147 In case you weren't aware, Auvinen carried out a school shooting in Jokela in 2007 which resulted in the death of six students and two faculty, after which he took his own life.
Watching the interview I was struck by the fact that psychological counsel Auvinen's parents had sought for him prior to the events decided to medicate him, a guy clearly suffering from loneliness and isolation. But that was the proposed solution. Medicate him. How disappointing.
We know pretty conclusively that most school shootings stem from bullying and loneliness. I'm anticipating the public discussion to yet again center on gun control and "psychological services" and well, bullying sure is bad… But really, we are expecting the state to step in and solve an issue it's not capable of solving. This is because it should be on the people, the ordinary people making up a community (a shared responsibility we've all collectively shrugged off and are now seeing the consequences of) to foster those social ties. The almost total lack of community experienced by many people nowadays, I believe, is now reflected in the mental health issues young people (and adults) are suffering in ever-growing numbers. For which the proposed solution is also to medicate yourself. I mean, it's particularly bad in Finland. People don't even greet each other or if they're in a park, or if another parent's kid comes to play on the swings people actively ignore each other. So we're off to a great start.
The human need to feel accepted and be "part of the tribe" is one of our most primal needs. Let's not overcomplicate extremely simple matters. We're not complex creatures.
The only way I see the state could help is by facilitating social groups in different settings for kids. Not forcing a kid to see an adult therapist. But I don't think the state should be needed to facilitate something like this. However, this hasn't even entered the conversation.
TL;DR: Nothing is more painful than loneliness, and it's all our social responsibility to prevent it, a responsibility many are shrugging off. We are not that complex.
by lil_leopard0
16 comments
bad day to be a Finn, stay locked in
I am not an expert or have knowledge in this area but one idea: I think you are right but execution of such an idea might be very difficult. Imagine a kid at that age is sent to a “social group” by the state. Stigma of this approach could even backfire on the kid’s psychology after those bullies at that age learned that the kid they are bullying basically sent to “mandatory socialisation”.
The shooter was a bully, not the target.
Auvinen was a mess. He actually ate propaganda crap and believed his actions would wake up everyone. New world order bullshit. I feel sorry for him.
The other dude after auvinen was just a lost bandwagoneer.
I haven’t seen anyone in Finland talking about gun control… Are you sure you’re not thinking of the US?
A lot of state subvented youth activities have been shut down during the past five(ish) years.
I dont know how to phrase it to sound politically correct, but Americans are supposedly social, yet there were 38 school shootings in 2023 there.
Its not the only cause of course but ive been lonely my entire life, not once have i had a friend group where i felt like i belonged and most of the time didnt even have more than 1 friend.
What im essentially saying is that either i havent actually been lonely and just made everything up or loneliness isnt the root cause, though then again if everyone had a friendgroup they belong in theyd also probably have protection from bullying etc, but then bullies might group up and the entire group gets bullied.
Thats my thoughts on it anyway, i wouldve never wanted to be forced into meeting people, should be more varied social settings because only having a youth centre where said bullies probably hang out isnt ideal, maker spaces, computer labs, music something, gaming clubs, whatever else you might think of. I think that would work better overall.
Only reason how kid got access to the gun was because the owner did neglect the laws. But its funny to see discussion to shift into this to avoid real problems. The only reason why this took so long to happen was pretty much thansk due the current control laws.
The boy should get shut or at least get locked up!
Modern society is at a place where a semi large portion of humans think we can bend reality and ignore it in a sense, where flaws that one could control is acceptable and OK, sometimes even encouraged. If something among these lines is too f*cked, we throw medicine at it. Social circles can be replaced with online ones, and since there is whole lotta of twisted mfs on the planet, they are bound to find eachother online.
Not that any of this really affects this case since the shooter was only 12 but these are the issues, atleast in my book.
A few stray observations from someone not Finnish
most school shootings stem from bullying and loneliness – have you any evidence to back this up?
medication gave me back my life as an adult – it is rarely a first resort
access to weapons increases the possibility of all shootings – hunting rifles etc should be exceptionally secured
yeah, there should most certainly be activities and pastimes for all
It’s yet an isolated incident. Sure, it’s very dramatic specially because of the ages, but it’s not a common occurrence (as in monthly or yearly). We have to be careful and avoid drawing conclusions from uncommon events.
Also no matter what the real motive was (yet unknown) the kid who shot had decided that the other one deserved to die.
My guy, what the fuck. I will tell you something.
My whole life, I was incredibly lonely. I was lonely to a point where I developed a speech impediment at around 16 since I was not talking to anybody, just like the people who go without speaking for years in protest or have sworn not to speak out of religious reasons.
I was lonely to a point where I would talk to furniture prior to that, and at some point, I had vivid hallucinations of people interacting with me, people that did not exist.
I was so lonely that I, in the end, was groomed by a 30-yo man because I wanted any attention so desperately that being used like that seemed like a fair trade.
And I was hurt and bullied relentlessly. I was beaten up every day, jumped, stolen from, ostracized, gossiped about, laughed at and molested. Nobody reacted, and my home life was even more shit.
Now answer me one question: Did I shoot up any school? Did I murder anybody? Well, if I did, I would not be writing this, would I?
Sure, I have a lot of problems in my life, most of them consisting of mental health issues, but I never crossed that line. Because I understand and understood then that someone’s life is not valued less than mine. That I have no right to take it, even if I wanted to.
To kill somebody, you need to either be in a situation where you have no other choice between kill or be killed, or you have to stop considering someone else human. And that usually involves either high levels of psychopathy or high levels of indoctrination.
So medicating a person who has such problems is not the worst first step. I don’t know what exactly happened at Vantaa. Maybe it was just stupidity from the kid, who brought the gun to be cool, just as me and my peers brought knives to school to be cool some 15 years ago. Maybe it was indeed motivated by hatred that had a reason. Or maybe the kid got some mental impairment or illness that made it impossible for them to assess the consequences of their actions.
What we do know, is that the parents fucked up with safekeeping the gun at some point. And they maybe even put the additional brick of indoctrination into the mix. The police will know for sure either way.
But, what I want to get across is that: we cannot jail people for just the intent, but we need something to calm them enough that they do not do horrible shit like what happened. So, meds seem like a reasonable option. And theraphy should be the next step. And if there is any bullying, it should be dealt with.
But do not ever push the guilt onto others for committing a heinous crime, just because the individual was lonely or treated lesser. Some acts have no excuse.
So, you know, even if the whole society changes, and people will be less lonely, there will still be murders. Because there will always be factors that mold humans into dangerous beings and give them tools. And certainly nobody is entitled to anyone’s time or friendship. Sure, basic human respect, yes, but not being liked or being lonely does not excuse murdering other people.
So stop it. If hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people that were abused like me or worse, did not end up taking somebody’s life, then I am pretty sure that it is not the whole society’s problem and responsibility if they do. Assuming that just what you described is enough to constitute such actions is plainly disrespectful to people like me who suffered – because it implies that we are made into monsters with no self-control, who if not given enough resources and met with opportunity will turn into killers.
This kid has personal responsibility for killing their peers. Nothing can change that.
TLDR: no, being lonely and bullied is not an excuse to make a shootout at school and it is not the whole society’s fault that they made this decision, since many factors could be at play.
There’s already an abundance of clubs and hobbies a person can do, it’s up to each individual whether they wish to take part. I’m certainly not going to take responsibilty for someone else’s social life. I do say hi to my neighbours, if they don’t wish to reply, it’s their choice, I’m not going to force them. At the end of the day we are all responsible for our own actions, blaming society for school shooters is too much if you ask me.
Tbh, I think in Finland parents are trying to avoid responsibility by thinking that if they call somewhere and complain, then someone else should take care of it.
If a kid gets bullied at school, they send a message and expect the school to handle it. If the school does nothing, they send another message, and again nothing happens. This continues for years. Lots of messages are sent and no change, bullying continues.
The right way to deal with bullying is to yes, send a message, if it doesn’t end bullying in 2 days, go to school and spend a full day there watching the bully and your kid closely, interact with both of them, correct their behaviour on every single situation where they do something wrong. If bullying continues the next day, spend 2 days at school watching the bully every second of the day and call out every single thing he does. Involve yourself so heavily that the school can not ignore you. On a quiet moment tell the bully that if he leaves your kid alone, you’ll leave him alone, but if he as much as looks at your kid badly, you’ll be on his ass for days, watching every single mistake he makes. If school tries to block you, tell the school you may need to press charges against the school for not taking action on the bullying.
The schools are required by law to ensure the school is a safe place, but they don’t give a crap about it unless someone forces them.
Loneliness and bullying are obviously horrible, yes. I have first-hand experience of both, so please don’t come at me.
Loneliness and bullying still won’t automatically cause violence, especially not gun violence. Someone taught this kid that violence is OK. Someone taught this kid where the gun was and how to use it. Someone didn’t care about the kid’s pain or the other warning signs there must have been. Someone taught them that they had the right to hurt people when they were or felt they were wronged.
Being treated as a potential threat and forced in some weird social group for outcasts would have been the worst thing I can imagine as a bullied kid. It would have been just another opportunity for the others to bully me. I already felt like a freak who could never fit in and be treated like everyone else. Being officially branded as exactly the freak I felt would have destroyed what little was left of my self-esteem and hope for future. I’d have killed myself more probably than not.