The congressman had a debate with a Defense Department official about hitting Russian refineries



by UNITED24Media

43 comments

  1. fwiw, I kinda get her point. Ukraine’s better than Russia, and probably shouldn’t copy out of Russia’s playbook just because Russia did it first.

    On the other hand, it’s not like Ukraine has the luxury of fighting a 100% clean fight. Oil infrastructure is a strategic target. It’s not striking civilians for the purpose of terror, it’s striking a crucial pillar that supports the Russian war machine. Aaaaand it’s not like this war is new, the employees were well aware of the risks.

    Just like [the contractors on the Death Star](https://youtu.be/iQdDRrcAOjA).

  2. Not sure who this congressperson is but he makes a very valid point.

    The US has targeted civilian assets in virtually every conflict in which it has engaged; particularly when those assets were furthering the enemy’s war effort.

  3. No surprise there really…

    >Celeste Wallander is Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs in the Office of the Secretary of Defense for Policy at the U.S. Department of Defense.

    >She previously served as Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for **Russia**/Central Asia on the National Security Council (2013-2017), as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for **Russia**/Ukraine/Eurasia (2009 to July 2012), Outside government, she served as President and CEO of the U.S.-**Russia** Foundation (2017-2022), professor at American University (2009-2013), visiting professor at Georgetown University (2006-2008), Director for **Russia**/Eurasia at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (2001-2006), Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations (2000- 2001), and professor of Government at Harvard (1989-2000). She is the author of over 80 publications on European and Eurasian security issues, focused on **Russian** foreign and defense strategy

    https://www.defense.gov/About/Biographies/Biography/Article/2947114/celeste-wallander/

  4. I can see their point that they don’t want Russian civilians to be punished for their idiot leader’s fuckups, but if those civilians aren’t going to rise up and do something about it (like demanding they pull the fuck OUT of Ukraine), they may need a little “motivation”.

  6. And she is yet another shining example of the intentional fuckups this administration has placed in key government positions.

  7. Personally, I feel Ukraine should be straight up bombing Moscow at this point (this doesn’t take into consideration international PR strategy, I know this would not be a positive thing) so as far as I’m concerned Russian oil and gas infrastructure is just a slow Tuesday. Git r dun Ukraine.

  8. I don’t know which state or party that congressman is from, but I agree with him. The US needs to boost up our own oil production and refinement and let the Ukranians systematically destroy the Russian’s. It would help Ukraine and the US. It’s a win win.

  9. This is one clip without much context.

    Wallander is also pushing for the US involvement in Ukraine and is a great advisor.

    Full committee meeting here (over 2 hours long)

    https://youtu.be/XuLs6hjWcUs

    When asked by Mr Smith about restoring 2014 borders and achieving peace

    Her response:
    He’s not after territory, he’s after Ukraine and subvert Europe. We cannot be fooled into thinking that (letting Russia keep existing territories) brings an era of peace.

    The Congressman Scott (the one above from Georgia) thinks Putin taking Odessa would make him happy (economically). Dude thinks Putin is motivated by money. Wallander has always stated Putin wants the USSR back.

    Edit: she’s smart and he’s a politician.
    If Ukraine wants to join the EU / NATO they’re going to be held to a higher standard.

  10. Dr. Wallander knows it’s a lie and she’s feeling uncomfortable. No sympathy though, the least you can ask is for them to come up with a less offensive excuse for this policy.

  11. She keeps calling the Russian gas and oil sector civilian targets, which is sort of a stretch of the definition to its breaking point- these are more accurately described as industrial targets. 

    As far as industrial targets go, the oil and gas refineries are legitimate targets- they supply the Russian military with fuel, and it’s not as if they’re located in the heart of a city with civilians living in close proximity to them. 

    If Russian ammunition factories are legitimate targets, then so are Russian refineries. The Russian military is burning diesel and gasoline around the clock to maintain its operations, even when they aren’t shooting.

  13. A silly source, but still a poignant point about not fighting, or choosing a ‘moral high ground’:

    “You think you’re better than everyone else. But there you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while Evil Triumphs, and your rigid pacifism crumbles into blood-stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is you stuck true to your guns. You were a coward, to your last whimper.”

  15. Energy infrastructure are legitimate strategic targets. Even the IRC thinks so.

    I’m not sure what some factions of the US government are playing at.

    Meanwhile, CONGRESS is withholding aid to Ukraine. Timing is a HUGE deal in war, and Putin is winning the timing game.

  16. The subtitles are wrong at the very end. He doesn’t say “destroy *him*.” What he says is a Southern “destroy ‘em,” which is “destroy them,” referring to the gas and oil infrastructure locations.

  17. During my time in the military, oil refineries were not considered civilian targets. They were always considered militarily important. Either to be destroyed to slow your enemy, or to be taken over to supply your own.

  18. “Civilian targets”

    Power and gas infrastructure has never been considered “civilian targets” in any of the various codices or rules pertaining to warfare. Hell, ***we*** attack and destroy critical infrastructure like power and gas when we invade a country. She’s trying to weasel out of admitting that the Biden Administration did not approve of it because Ukraine’s strikes could negatively impact global oil prices. With November coming up, Biden cannot afford to have gas prices skyrocket again before people go to the polls, especially when people aren’t slow to remember that Biden’s administration has done nothing to renew drilling and refinement licenses here in the USA, which has exacerbated fuel costs for Americans during a period where inflation is crippling most American households.

  19. Stupid issue for the administration to dig in on. Guess they had a donor who demanded they at least make a show of protest.

  20. Oil and gas are a strategic target because it directly fuels not only the machines of war but the dollars Russians need to continue this senseless war. Power infrastructure I could understand, but then again maybe they need a taste of their own medicine too.

  21. I mean, he’s right. Yes, you can want to hold the upper moral ground when it comes to respecting international treaties on human rights and rules of engagement. But if you’re in a war, you’re in a war. You still need to neutralise their capabilities in whatever way is necessary. If some of their civilians die at the plant you hit, that’s on the aggressor for starting the war in the first place.

  22. Da fuq she was tryna say… B…, come and and live where I and my family live in the Mykolaiv region fkr a while and then I will listen to your concerns after some time. F….

  23. Every bridge. Every railroad. Every electrical plant. Burn it all down. Everything within 1000km of the border should go. See how they like it.

  24. This is about Americans paying $5+ a gallon in gas.

  25. Orcs just attract a Ukrainian power plant. Damn America has forgotten how to fight a war. Only limited ones ever since Viet Nam. Always worry about.. you name it.

  26. THAT STUPID WOMAN NEEDS TO BE FIRED AND PREVENTED FROM BEING IN GOVERNMENT WORK FOR LIFE.

    WE ARE LITERALLY TRAINED IN THE US MILITARY THAT PETROL AND FUELS ARE LEGITIMATE AND LEGAL TARGETS.

    GET THIS STUPID BITCH OUT OF D.C.

  27. Anything that makes putin money to kill Ukrainians is a fair target.

  28. Has Biden administration done anything that makes sense?

  29. This sounds as if Biden administration were shareholders in ruzzia’s gasoil enterprises

  30. Hopefully, we, here in Ukraine, won’t hear this bullshit for much longer – Russia is destroying Ukrainian power and gas grid steadily, there is already 80% shortage of electricity. We will descend into a Stone Age and won’t hear this “American Bingo Bullshit” for much longer.

  31. Dr. Wallander is wrong wrong wrong and wrong. She needs to be fired from any defence-related job with immediate effect.

  33. Biden’s panicking if the price of gasoline rises due to Ukraine droning refineries; Biden might lose the re-election. Food price is high already, fears arise. Going to go to those few so-called swing-states whole election anyways…

  34. Ukraine should bomb the crap out of any raw commodities and factories they can reach.

  36. You can in fact legally attack civilian infrastructure if that infrastructure is used to support the war effort. Let Ukraine bomb the Russian energy sector as they please and lift all restrictions on weapons use so they don’t have to defend themselves with hands tied on the back.

    And stop the hypocrisy..

    “During the first Gulf War, attacks against Iraqi infrastructure by US-led military forces claimed a minimum of 110,000 civilian casualties. The vast majority of deaths were caused not by the direct impact of bombs but by the destruction of the electric power grid and the ensuing collapse of the public health, water and sanitation systems, leading to outbreaks of dysentery, cholera, and other water-borne diseases.”

    https://reliefweb.int/report/iraq/water-under-siege-iraq-usuk-military-forces-risk-committing-war-crimes-depriving

  37. The lack of understanding of the Geneva conventions, rules of armed combat, the targeting cycle and principals of subsidiarity and proportionality on here are astounding…

    I can’t believe people ACTUALLY think this dude is in the right. Because he isn’t. Even with the point of who owns the oil plants, it goes against a LOT of principles of armed conflict.

    And the arguments of: “yeah but Russia does it too” REALLY doesn’t cut it.

  38. Russia attacked energy infrastructure today so it’s only fair Ukraine hits more refineries

    AN EYE FOR AN EYE

  39. What a dumb shit, stupid ass argument. Blow up Lenin’s tomb for fucks sake. Nothing should be off the table when Russia is bombing schools, hospitals, and apartment complexes. Fuck, blow up St Basils if you have to. Bomb it all.

  40. Spineless.

    It’s war. Yes there will be collateral damage.

  41. I’m an American and let me tell you that there are a lot of F’ing dumb Americans that don’t know WTF they talking about just like this dumb lady.

  42. Not civilian targets when Ruzzia is attacking the same.

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