David Cameron gives evidence during committee session – watch live

David Cameron gives evidence during committee session – watch live

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start very much foreign secretary for
coming I know you’ve come a long way
especially to be with us so we’re very
appreciative and and welcome to philli
as well um this is uh a session a oneoff
session we’re having uh in public uh
it’ll come cover a range of following
policy topics um it will be streamed
live on the parliament website and a
transcript will be taken and we’ll send
you a copy of the transcript afterwards
uh in case you need to make some small
Corrections can I remind members um that
if they have any interests pertinent to
uh their questions to declare them uh
and I should mention my wife as a
shareholder BAE Systems um I just very
quickly we we don’t have much time there
may be a division if there’s a division
uh during this meeting um I’ll ajour for
10 minutes and if we could go through
the vision lobbies as quickly as
possible and come back without talking
to too many people that would be great
um and I will I’m afraid forign SE I may
have to interrupt you if in order to get
uh everyone the chance to ask a question
um but as I say we’re very grateful for
you coming and we appreciate uh you are
very busy so uh we’re going to start uh
probably unsurprisingly with Israel and
Gaza and I’ll ask lady Morris to ask the
first question uh thank you Lord
chairman um foreign secretary can I just
Echo uh the welcome of the uh our Lord
chairman and in doing so thank you in
particular for all that you’re doing in
Gaza um to secure a a a ceasefire that’s
lasting the return of the hostages and
to make sure that Aid gets to those who
need it most my question is going to be
on the protection of Aid workers and in
asking it I declare my interest as the
prime minister’s trade Envoy to Jordan
Q8 the occupi Palestinian territories a
role which you kindly appointed me to in
2012 um as president of the Palestine
Bish Business Council and president of
Medical Aid for Palestinians foreign
secretary at the beginning of this month
uh the world was horrified by the
killing of seven World Central Kitchen
Aid workers in G
uh three of them British but in the last
7 months over 200 Aid workers have been
killed and some 500 um have been
injured and on the 18th of January a
1,000 smart bomb was fired at the
residential compound of Medical Aid for
Palestinians a British charity and uh
the International Rescue committee a US
registered uh uh
nonprofit which was housing local uh
staff and their families also uh the
emergency team which included British
doctors the coordinates of the house had
been shared with the IDF and although
these injury there were no injuries uh
and although there were injuries luckily
no one was killed an investigation by
the Israeli government and the IDF have
so far come up with six different
explanations as to how this happened
given the confusion in this can we have
confidence in any internal
investigations or should we be seeking
independent inquiry well first of all I
think you’re all right to be very
concerned about this particular episode
obviously the whole situation in Gaza is
is deeply concerning and and the loss of
life deeply regrettable but but on this
occasion um I raised I mean I I like you
it was the 18th of January that it
happened I think I raised it with prime
minister Netanyahu on the 24th of
January
um we also I raised it with foreign
minister with with Minister Gant on the
6th of March and we’ve never had a
proper satisfactory explanation I that
is very concerning because it goes to
the bigger picture which is there hasn’t
been um effective enough um arrangements
with in Gara for deconfliction um so as
you say on this occasion apparently the
coordinates were given to the IDF so it
shouldn’t have been hit and it was and
we never got a proper explanation but
your question is can we have any
confidence
elsewhere um and I think what I would
say is when it comes to the tragedy of
the world Central Kitchen uh attack and
loss of life the early signs are that it
is a proper investigation two people
have already been fired and the Israelis
have admitted that there were both
systemic and personal failures um and so
I think that can give us um some hope
that there’s going to be better action
taken in future but what happened on the
18th of January was a sort of Warning
Sign um and more should have been done
when we raised it at the highest levels
and said look this look look at what
happened you need better Arrangements in
place thank you um Lord wood thank you
um forign secr I’d like to ask you about
um UK support for unra um I believe the
Andrew Mitch your colleague today
announced that resumption of future
funding support would be delayed another
month um until further report has been
issued and I think this will puzzle some
people because previously what was the
end of April uh which is today uh the
colono report um was sufficient for lots
of our allies Canada France Finland
Australia Sweden the EU to restore
funding we haven’t done that why is the
deadline change when to be fair you’ve
been a leading voice for putting
pressure on Israel to be more
Cooperative on humanitarian support we
are not committing to Future funding for
the main platform for that delivering
that support why are we at an outlier
amongst our allies on this question I
don’t think we are I mean fair fair
question I would say first of all we are
continuing to keep the pressure on uh
Israel uh we identified all of the
bottlenecks that were in place you know
why haven’t you opened Ashton Port why
haven’t you switched the water back on
why aren’t we up at 500 trucks a day uh
why aren’t there more Crossing points
open for longer you know we’ve
identified those and pushed and pushed
and pushed um obviously President Biden
was was very effective in getting
pledges from the Israelis to do all
those things and we now follow literally
on a daily basis you know how are they
doing towards those uh those those
elements on unrea specifically when that
happened and it was pretty horrific to
know that people working for unra had
taken part in the 7th of October attacks
there were two report processes set up
one was the Katherine Colona former
French Minister really looking at the
workings of anra and the sorts of things
that needed to change and the second was
the office of independent oversight o IO
which was looking at the actual case
itself and I think I said right back in
the beginning I’d like to see how both
reports are progressing before we
recommit uh and I said that knowing that
UNR actually had plenty of money to keep
it going because it is a vital platform
within Gaza there aren’t many other ways
of getting Aid around as you know so I
think that’s perfectly reasonable we
haven’t particularly changed our
deadlines we said we want to see at
least you know the early parts of of
both reports but preferably both reports
in full because I think in not just in
the the important terms of doing the
right thing but also in parliamentary
terms I think a lot of colleagues in
both houses will want to hear that unrra
is properly policed properly run proper
oversight vets its staff appropriately
and what happened on October the 7th
with participation couldn’t happen again
so that’s the thinking okay thank you
can I ask you about um uh an aspect of
Israel’s prosecution of the war against
Hamas um there have been reports reports
I should stress um at this stage of mass
Graves at G NASA Hospital reports of
bodies with women including women and
children uh with hands tied or or buried
with hospital gowns on now Jake Sullivan
National Security adviser at the White
House has called for investigation the
UN commissioner for human rights has
done so I wonder what uh foreign office
investigations have revealed about this
and what action you’re taking well we
haven’t had any investigations we’re not
capable of of doing that because we’re
not in Gaza but we have said this needs
to be investigated it’s extremely
disturbing I’m very nervous about going
beyond that because I think with some
previous events in this conflict people
have jumped to conclusions too quickly
uh it’s had an enormous impact on social
media and elsewhere and I think we we
need the Israelis urgently to get to the
bottom of what happened before before
going
further uh Lord
gra and yes foreign secretary I know
this is something that you’re well
familiar with and have commented on but
um uh we all know from experience I
think that when this Dreadful War War
comes to a conclusion uh the chances are
that the world Community will move on to
the next Crisis uh and uh the
fundamental problems of Israel Palestine
uh will go on the back burner and will
not be addressed and uh my question is
about postwar reconstruction um and
governance basically I mean what um what
reassurance can you give us uh that uh
serious thought and consideration is
being given and plans put in place by
the International Community to decide
how Gaza is going to be governed uh and
what where the money for the
Reconstruction is going to come from
well I I was in Saudi Arabia yesterday
meeting with foreign ministers from
Egypt Jordan Kata Bahrain Saudi
Arabia um and I would say that actually
there’s quite a lot of I’ve got quite a
lot of confidence that this won’t slip
off the front pages when this conflict
is over because I think um all of the
neighbors and um and Friends of Israel
and Palestine I think come to the same
conclusion which is of course we want to
bring the conflict to an end we’ve got
to deal with the the threat of Hamas
you’ve got to have uh moves towards a
secure Palestinian state but also a
secure Israel and I think so many
parties to this understand that you know
there is no long-term peace and security
and stability in the Middle East without
a solution to the the Palestinian
question so if you look at for instance
what what the Saudi what the Saudis are
trying to do with this normalization
deal with Israel that’s obviously a huge
step for Saudi Arabia a big step for
Israel but part of it would be um the
creation of a Palestinian State and a
horizon towards that basis again I think
if you talk to the Egyptians and the
jordanians and also if you talk frankly
to other Europeans I think there’s an
acknowledgement that you know huge
efforts were made around the time of
Oslo and and and all of those things
which you’ll remember and then I think
latly there was a sense that it was just
too difficult and it couldn’t get done
and uh we should focus instead on you
know getting Aid to the Palestinians and
all the rest of it and actually without
solving this problem we’re never going
to get the long-term peace and security
we need so I I have some confidence that
actually there’s there’s fresh Comm to
try and get this sorted from all the
friends of of of the region um on the
issue of reconstruction I think what has
to come first is trying to build up the
concept what happens after the conflict
ends which is what we were talking about
yesterday how do you build up the new
Palestinian Authority the technical
government they’ve created how do you
get it back into Gaza having got it back
into Gaza how do you uh help it with the
Reconstruction work how do you deal with
the issue of security on the day one
after the war is over I think all of
those things um need to be solved and
it’s it of course everyone’s thinking
we’re already talking to people about
reconstruction and who pays them for
what and all the rest of it but I think
it’ be quite hard to really progress
those conversations until people know
the war is over who’s running Gaza how
is it working uh and the rest of it but
a lot of work is going into that and but
so much as well is invested in a
two-state solution uh I I can’t remember
how many foreign secretaries of both
parties have that’s the get out of jail
free card almost isn’t it to say we want
a two-state solution now obviously
recognizing Palestine is absolutely
fundamental to that um but I uh I I just
wonder I don’t be too pessimistic but
this committee seven years ago did an
inquiry into the two states into the
Middle East and it said on its current
trajectory the Israeli Palestinian
dispute is on the verge of moving into a
phase where the two-state solution
becomes an impossibility and considered
no longer viable by either side the
consequences would be grave for the
region you right seven years ago well I
think you were right there you know and
also I mean to reinforce that first of
all it was getting harder because of the
settlement building in Israel and so by
Israel in the in the West Bank and so
technically creating the Palestinian
state has got harder and we have to
think about that but also while I
support the Abraham Accords which was um
a number of Arab states normalizing
their relations with Israel that was a
positive step forward but I think some
people looking at that thought oh well
we can sort of create peace between the
Arab world and the Israeli world without
fixing the Palestinian problem and I
think that was a mistake you you have to
fix the Palestinian problem um now it’s
got harder but it’s not impossible and
so we have to use the the horror of
what’s happened to try and uh push
forward uh this agenda and and I think
as we do so I think there can be a
tendency to think that recognition sort
of brings about the state it doesn’t I
mean recognition is an important part of
helping to give the Palestinians a
perspective towards statehood but it
doesn’t create a state just by everybody
recognizing it you’ve got to you know
set out the things that actually create
a state a a government it’s its ability
to govern um agreement in some way with
the Israelis about their security
because of course the two-state solution
can’t happen unless the Israelis feel
secure in their own state so all these
things are linked but I I would say
there’s more purpose behind it than for
a while and and we mustn’t miss this
opportunity staying in the same region
uh but intimately connected lady Crawley
you’ve got a question thank you chair
foreign secretary good to see you for so
so much uh of the inst stability in the
world leads back to
Iran uh and its
proxies uh and you yourself said in uh
the Lords in in this house on the uh 5th
of March that you couldn’t recall such a
dangerous time in international Affairs
uh in your political
career now we welcome uh the
government’s emphasis in the new um
sanctions against Iran on targeting
threat on UK soil on uh contravening
shipping on the Iranian drone program we
welcome that but many of us across party
both within Parliament and
outside remain perplexed as to why the
government is still refusing to
prescribe the Iranian revolutionary
guard as a terrorist organization you’re
a very active foreign Secret
you know that the
irgc uh is the Leading Edge of both
internal repression and external
violations against Israel against Arab
states against Western interests in that
part of the world and yet despite that
and allies of ours having a different
view um there’s a reluctance in the
government to move against the I let let
me answer that very directly um all of
the things we need to do to put pressure
on Iran and to make sure that where they
act illegally are we can act against
them are in place through our sanctions
regime that we have enhanced and we’ve
sanctioned the irgc in its entirety and
when I asked law enforcement police
intelligence service and others is this
extra step of prescription necessary in
order to take further action against
these people when they do the things
that we disapprove of the answer is no
and and there’s a disadvantage to be
frank about it from prescription which
is it would effectively end I think
diplomatic relations and while our
diplomatic relations are pretty tur and
I say that with meaning as someone who’s
had regular conversations with the
Iranian foreign minister we are actually
able to have that
conversation and when it comes to trying
to stop the escalation of the conflict
when it comes to delivering a very
direct message to the Iranians put it in
the most blunt way I can I want to have
that conversation myself I don’t want to
ring up my French counterpart and say
could you message the Iranians with this
message that’s I think that is not in
Britain’s interest that wouldn’t
strengthen our approach in many ways it
would weaken it um because you’ve got
even with countries you disapprove of
and dislike and see as a threat you need
at some level those diplomatic relations
to deliver the message to hear the
answer and go back again with another
message sometimes I find with countries
that don’t have diplomatic relations
with Iran they send a message to the
Iranians and the Iranians then sometimes
ring me up and say what do you think
they meant I don’t want to be in that
position I want to have that very direct
conversation but I completely agree with
the premise of your question about the
dangers that we face and this is not a
question of facing dangers you know in
Gaza or in Ukraine although that’s
happening think about in our own country
in the last few months we’ve had the the
appalling situation of China spying on
our electoral commission and uh cyber
attacks on members of parliament we had
the situation just a few days ago of
what is alleged to be a Russian attack
sabotage attack on a warehouse in uh
East London and of course we have had a
situation with Iran where they were
effectively paying thugs to try and kill
people that work for Iran TV so you know
if you want a picture of the dangers in
the world you don’t have to look around
the globe you can look right here at who
is attacking us and that’s why when you
add up all the things the Govern
government’s done the National Security
Act so we can prosecute um SPN more
effectively the National Security
investment act so we can be more careful
about who invests in our infrastructure
the forthcoming foreign interest
registration scheme so actually uh we
can um have a better idea of what other
countries might be doing in this country
the Boost we’ve given to our
intelligence services to gchq to MI5 to
Sis um and the sanctions regime that we
put in place I me it’s the busiest bit
of the foreign office I can tell you at
the moment they’re working around the
clock because when they’re not
sanctioning Russians they’re sanctioning
Iranians or they’re sanctioning people
from Bellas or elsewhere so hardening
our security system right across the
peace because of the threats we face
right here at home demonstrates that
security is the most important thing we
need right now thank you um we’re going
to move away from uh Israel and Gaza um
to another difficult part of the world
uh Lord Robertson who’s yeah um foreign
secretary my my interests are I’m a
senior counselor with the Coen group and
I’m chairman of the ID Group which is
the friends of North
Macedonia um so I want to uh ask you
about the Western Balkans and I think
this is a week where uh the news is
particularly Bleak I think the uh UN
General Assembly uh is this week going
to be uh discussing sanich and the
genocide there and this is
leading um Serbia to pretty open
ferment trouble inside Bosnia and
heroina uh and giving irresponsible and
quite probably illegal say uh support to
separatist elements in Republica CSA so
what I wanted to ask you was that don’t
you think it’s time that uh NATO and the
European Union and ourselves in
particular intervened boldly and uh
firmly to defend the uh the data
agreement
well I I do fundamentally I do I mean I
think it’s extremely depressing that
you’re right I mean it’s um Serbia and
the Republic of cska are launching a
campaign against the resolution that’s
being put down and they’re effectively
denying that Trea was an act of genocide
and they’re labeling suggestions
otherwise is anti-serb and Russia has
called for a UNC debate United Nations
security Council debate today in which
it will claim that the resolution is
somehow an attack on dayon uh and an
attack on the settlement and I think you
know all of us who remember shreit I
mean it it was um genocide it was an
appalling event one of the worst things
we’ve seen on our continent in the last
few decades and so the UK will be voting
for The Resolution we’ll be speaking up
for it and we’ll be calling out those
who oppose it um and I think that’s part
of Defending Dayton defending the
situation that’s in place and trying to
make sure I me ultimately if you stand
back what are we trying to do in the
western Balkans trying to give these
countries the chance of stability of
growth and prosperity and a western Euro
Atlantic European perspective if that’s
what they choose and and that is um
you’ll know him well um Stuart Peach who
was um Deputy um chairman of the
military committee
correct uh you know does such a good job
because actually is one of those areas
you really need a a an Envoy because he
ABS scoots around from prime minister to
president and back again uh in order to
do exactly as you suggest yeah but I’m
I’m suggesting to you that we perhaps
need to do more we have reduced the the
initial deployment to Bosnia was 65,000
way back and year on year as progress
has been maintained we’ve reduced it now
to youfor uh where we don’t even play a
part and this committee made a
recommendation that perhaps we should be
considering that but you don’t we don’t
you think that we should perhaps be a
bit more robust in what that’s a very
good point I would say so so far um as
well as going to north bedonia um I’ve
been to Kosovo I’ve spent some time with
K4 and I came back from that and
contacted the NATO SE gen and said I
think we needed to do more on K4 it
needed to be stronger and Bolder we
needed as you’ll remember to take the um
restrictions off some of the um
different troops from different nations
that they that they have there on efor
and and Bosnia we’re not part of it I
think you might well be right that it
should be boosted but that’s a matter
for the European Union to to think about
I think there’s a strong case and Stuart
Peach that thinks there’s a strong case
for boosting it we don’t take part not
out of any um we we sort of think our
role in the Balkans is obviously to talk
to everybody but our military role is
focused on K4 um I think the
disadvantage of joining in with you4 as
a third country is that you you can take
part in many countries do but you’re not
involved in the design of the mission so
it’s a slightly less satisfactory
situation than being in a NATO Mission
as we are in K4 but I mean I’ll I’m
happy to talk to you more if you think
that there are more things we can do um
we’re concentrating quite a lot on the
economic support we give on the
counternarrative to the Russian
poisonous um messages that are being
spread on the political Horizon for
those countries and and uh the work in
NATO but very happy if there’s more
things you think we should be doing very
happy to to listen you think on you4 I’m
I’m I’m a bit skeptical that I I would
rather you know we’re going to make a
contribution let’s do it in K4 where we
can do it properly rather than you for
on that subject Lord SS thank you uh
foreign secretary um I know that you
agree that the this is further to George
Robertson’s question that you agree that
the foundation of peace and security is
deterrence um but will you agree as you
just have done again
that we must do what we can to deter the
threat of
aggression or violent secession in
Bosnia without which frankly there is no
space whatever for political maneuver
and settlement and just a question of
what you could do I I heard you say
you’re going to that the Britain will
vote at the UN in the appropriate manner
of course but would you also agree that
perhaps it might be helpful if you and
your European and American and our
American Partners ISS ised a
statement expressing absolutely
unwavering support for Bosnia and hurts
the governor’s territorial Integrity
sovereignty and multi-ethnic character
and the imposition of sanctions to
address any any anti-an actions I think
that’s a I mean we often do do
statements um either through the G7 or
sometimes through the the Quint um the
five European key key countries we we
can do that and do do that and I think
that’s a very good suggestion and be no
doubt we absolutely support uh bosnia’s
territorial integrity and as you say the
multiethnic nature of that country’s
makeup and also it’s its European
Horizon which it has made a very clear
decision towards and we call out uh the
work of dodich and others who who try to
um uh play a mine influence and I’ve
also have very Frank
conversations um with the serbs I’ve now
met president vukich twice uh and had
Frank conversations with him about what
they’re doing in the region and the
important of respecting um other
countries and their their their
Sovereign choices thank you um I wonder
if you could help me um and help us with
wiing an inquiry which mainly relates to
defense and the uh influence of
uh Ukraine uh War but I wondered if you
could let us know what your assessment
is of the role of diplomacy and UK
diplomacy uh throughout the war in
Ukraine and um what the lessons are um
that the government has drawn from its
diplomatic engagement to date that’s a
very broad question um I mean first of
all I think I mean it predates me but I
think the way the UK got behind zalinski
and Ukraine was absolutely magnificent
uh was the right thing to do Britain and
I think got a still gets a lot of credit
for it uh when you go to Ukraine and you
you meet people they say you know you’re
our number one supporter you say no no
surely America you’re not no no you’re
number one because you were here first
and you helped us when we most needed it
so there’s the military aspect to it but
I would argue The Diplomatic aspect is
very important obviously foreign
secretaries always say that but I mean
you’re trying to Garner the greatest
possible support and I think the NATO
foreign ministers the G7 foreign
ministers everything we do if I look at
my list of five priorities for my job
you know priority number one is Ukraine
um and that tips over into quite
military issues because of course the
specific campaigns are things like you
know International agreement to use the
immobilized Russian assets we’re making
good progress on that secure additional
military supplies for Ukraine and
stimulate UK and European Defense
industrial production I think good
progress on that and driving progress
towards Ukraine’s um Euro and Atlantic
um integration and again we’re making
progress with that so I think you know
trying to build the coal Coalition that
backs Ukraine across Europe across NATO
uh across the United States and Canada
that is a very big feature for us and
one of the things I’ve tried to do is uh
repeatedly go to the United States and
talk with the United States um senators
and Congress um uh representatives and
also meet with with everyone I can
including the former president um uh
former president Trump to Bang the Drum
and make the case that this is about you
know th security as much as it’s about
European security so I think diplomacy
does play a big role Ukraine is
fortunate in having an excellent foreign
minister in Demitri kba who works
incredibly hard at you know again
looking around Europe where are their
spare Munitions where are their air
defense systems where are there’s
additional and you know and lobbies all
of us hard me in particular say come on
you said you’re going to help let’s get
out there and try and get these
Bulgarian missiles or those Russian
those Romanian bullets or what have you
so I I think the lesson is we can be
effective if we work in all these forums
um and we’ve got to continue to do so
good thank you very much um lady
cousins um foreign secretary thank you I
want to ask about the BBC Well Service
um I know from answers you’ve given on
the floor of the house that you agree
that the world service is a unique soft
power asset would you also agree that if
the current review of the World Service
uh of the BBC rather leads away from the
license fee that the foreign office
needs to rise to the Challenge from the
director General and resume 100% of the
funding for the World Service rather
than risk seeing its content and its
scope and its impact inevitably suffer
if it has to compete inside a funding
model outside of the license fee when
what it really needs is the budgetary
resilience to respond flexibly to
geopolitical
shifts yes okay I’ve got sorry keep
going I just want to tack on one bit
perhaps you please could tack on to your
answer to that question um an update for
the committee on what if any progress
has been made towards establishing or um
a BBC Albanian service which was one of
the recommendations that this committee
made in our recent western Balkans uh
report but to which you gave a rather
vague and open
response um in your letter to us right
um on the I mean on the basic issue is
is the BBC World Service incredibly
important and should we continue to have
it funded at a good and hopefully
growing level yes now I I would argue as
I did on the floor of the house I think
there’s a perfectly good argument to say
something from the license fee paays
something from the government is a fair
way of doing it because I think license
VI payers um get something out of the
World Service I do when Radio 4 goes off
at night and the World Service comes on
I I I leap for Joy um well I don’t
because I’m hopefully trying to go to
sleep but you know what I mean it’s a
brilliant service we we we get to access
it and also I think the BBC has some
advantages by running the World Service
there’s some crossover between that and
the the domestic service so I think the
idea of funding out of two PS is good no
I don’t know what’s going to happen to
the license fee I I’m quite oldfashioned
I actually think the license fee Works
quite well um and will continue to work
well probably for longer than lots of
people think um because actually it’s a
universal service we all use it to to a
greater or lesser extent um when you
look at all the Alternatives there are
lots of disadvantages so I’m quite a
sort of license fee fan in an
oldfashioned way and so I I but the
answer to the question is we must go on
however it’s funded it must go on being
funded at a generous level and in this
contested competitive world uh there’s a
good argument for saying that we need
more um independent respectable uh media
uh in this space now on the Albanian
service I’ve looked at this again I mean
ultimately it is a decision for the BBC
World Service rather than for me the
only thing I’d say is you know Albania
is now a country you know on the brink
of joining the European Union it’s a
NATO Ally I mean it’s it’s sort of
orientation um in that direction is
confirmed if I if I was running the BBC
I might be thinking well actually what
there are countries that are more in a
more difficult situ take mova I was
meeting with the foreign minister today
you know country that is really trying
um to be Western orientated and fight
corruption and be a good democracy and a
transparent country with a you know and
all the rest of it you sort of there I
think there are other cases where you
can see the need um and those are the
sorts of questions that the foreign
office in its work with the BBC has to
think
about thank you um Lord Bruce we will’ll
start we may have a vote coming up but
thank you can I turn your attention
foreign secretary to Africa um and can
we take as a given that um the Bly the
aid in development budget for Africa has
been pretty decimated over the last four
years we did a report four years ago in
which we made a number of
recommendations and the government gave
a robust response about the importance
of Africa but in reality whereas 4 years
ago we were spending 3 billion in Oda in
Africa last year it was 925 now I know
you’ve put it back up to 1,400 million I
welcome that but billions have not been
spent and will’ll never be spent I’ve
given
you give you a comprehensive answer when
we get back we’ll ajour for 10 minutes
and if you can get back quicker that’s
so much the better thank
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going to talk about a thank you first of
all can I declare my interest as an ad
ER To Dai Who deliver development
programs for the UK and other donors and
also a mentor with the Westminster
foundation for democracy on parliaments
most recently in the Solomon Islands
which has just had a rather interesting
election yes um but on on the subject of
Africa um if we take as a given there’s
been dramatic cut in our presence but
it’s coming back a lot of damage and
disruption has been done so can I ask
you how are you going to rebuild those
relationships both in terms of our
development priorities and our
diplomatic engagement given the
increasing influence of China and Russia
which have got to the point where France
has almost been kicked out of its former
interests and the United States and
Russia is moving in in a very malign way
what are we doing to make sure that the
relationships which have been damaged
with our partners are restored and
recovered and that they have confidence
that we will work with them uh rather
than undermine them because I have to
say a lot of resentment was caused by
the dramatic cuts that took place I I’d
say a couple of things first of all we
do have very good and long-standing
relationships with a lot of African
countries that we’ve helped over many
years second point is as you said the
funding has recovered quite a lot over
the last year and actually in the unad
world investment report 2023 named the
UK as the largest investor in African
countries supporting more than 2.4
billion in direct investment in the
continent um and if you take you know
the picture last year to this year
Somalia an increase from 90 to 130
Ethiopia 89 to over 200 Nigeria 72 to
120 you know Britain is back in Africa
helping with these key partners and key
issu it was 5 years okay I’m I’m not
denying as I said very um openly in the
in on on on the floor of the House of
Lords you know 0.7 came down to 0.5
which which was not my policy but I’ve
come in and I’m working with the
government to improve matters and at the
same time we had this big uh influx of
um uh of of refugees and it’s perfectly
right within the rules to spend odor on
that it’s a big fiscal shock to the
country when something like that that
happens so we’re building back from that
position and we’re doing so with a very
clear strategy of how we best help and
that is to recognize that of course we
still see the need for aid but many
African countries also want to see an
expansion of the multilateral
development Banks uh and we’re seeing
that with the extra Capital we’re
putting in and the fact we’re getting
them to stretch their balance sheets
many African countries want to actually
see you know Equity invested they want
risk Capital going into businesses and
bii I would argue British International
Investment formerly Commonwealth
Development Corporation is best-in class
is doing a fantastic job again is
expanding and focusing on um State
fragility and then I think going to your
point about you’ve got the China issue
and the Russia security issue I would
argue we addressing both of those with
the China Lending issue that’s what bii
is an alternative to and the
multilateral development Banks an
alternative to and on the Russia
security issue I think it’s a very
important thing for people involved in
development like yourself to
recognize sometimes we’ve said when it
comes to our own country security is the
number one priority the most important
you can have you don’t have anything
without National Security and then when
we try and help countries in Africa you
know there are all sorts of other
agendas all vitally important from
education and water and food and
Medicine and all the rest of it but
actually perhaps we’ve underinvested in
helping countries with their own
security we need to think as we help
other countries in the way we would want
to be helped ourselves um so I think
those agendas can all help but I would
say with Minister Mitchell back in
charge of development uh with a solid
0.5 with the work we’re doing with bii
with our white paper on development
Britain is back doing good work in
Africa and winning friends and
influencing people quick why do we
cancel the Africa investment Summit um
we had a slight Summit overload to tell
the truth um uh we’ve got this big EPC
Summit which is over 50 heads of state
that’s happening in July uh you’ve got
European elections taking place which
don’t affect us most mercifully but does
affect a lot of other uh countries we
were sandwiched between a very important
uh conference in Rwanda and there was
another one somewhere else it just
became what was it Nigeria it was very
difficult to get the dates fixed and we
just couldn’t do everything and so we
decided let’s do the EPC and do a lot of
the African investment work by actually
I’m going to be making a visit there uh
in a month or so going directly to the
countries and talking to them thank you
um lady Fraser thank you um foreign
secretary um baroness Corley reminded us
that you have said that this there’s
never been such a dangerous time in
international relations and I want to
thank you for the surging that you’ve
done and the energy you have brought to
to the role but I’m interested I’m
delighted that you mentioned you have
your list of um priorities and I think
that the committee would like to to know
how how are you setting your priorities
are you making best use of local
knowledge and intelligence and do you
think our defense policy is still
aligned with our foreign office
priorities well first on your last Point
uh I think the the move by the
government to say uh we’re going to go
from 2% to a half% in relatively short
order you know by 2030 I think is hugely
important I think it’s great to the
credit of prime minister the chance of
Defense secretary that they’ve taken
that step it means there are other
things we won’t be able to do but it’s
absolutely the right priority and so I
think if you combine the sort of
hardening of our security I spoke about
earlier with the 2.5 you can see a very
clear government agenda saying National
Security comes first it’s a dangerous
world we need to protect ourselves
better and so I think the alignment is
is extremely good
um in terms of setting priorities I mean
it’s difficult this because of course
the whole point about the foreign
Commonwealth and development office is
you know you got to deal with everything
in the world and things can pop up
without you uh foreseeing them but I
think the clear priorities of saying
number one is Ukraine it is the thing
that most affects our security we have
to make sure that Putin does not succeed
um for their good but also for our own
the secure and stable Middle East being
the second because it’s not just
important in itself it spills over into
our own country our own domestic um
situation the third I’ve said is
enhancing security and that is about
working together with the ministry of
Defense the home office about thinking
about how we enhance our own security
and it’s also making sure the home the
foreign office is playing its role in
this whole debate about immigration and
how do we return people who are here
illegally how do we use some of our
diplomatic tools um to make sure that
countries are stay fair with us when it
comes to returning people that have no
right to be here now the foreign office
in the past has sometimes been a little
bit nervous of that you know we have our
you know our arrangements with foreign
countries we don’t really want to
compromise those by getting into the
Dirty Work of returning people who
shouldn’t be here I we don’t not anymore
we are absolutely part of Team um uh
Team immigration if you’re not if you
don’t have a right to be here you
shouldn’t be here and we will return you
and we’ll use the weapons we have to
make sure you your country um puts
Arrangements in place fourth is is
promoting International Development um
and addressing the critical Global
challenges like climate change and fifth
I was very keen to make sure that
foreign office is absolutely part of the
prosperity agenda that we are doing
everything we can to attract investment
into Britain so while I was in Saudi
Arabia yesterday I took time to meet
with a whole series of businesses that
either have invested in Britain or are
thinking of investing in Britain I think
we have a key role in that so how do we
work all these priorities well Philip
has very kindly given me um SRO for each
of the campaigns were running um so
right within the environment we’ve
decided to Target the issue of getting
Finance for um small island developing
States um I think they’re suffering the
most a lot of them are members of the
Commonwealth uh it’s a commonwealth
conference year it’s also the year when
the small island developing states have
a conference and so I think it’s the
right environmental campaign for us to
pick so we have someone helping me with
each of these campaigns under the five
headings and hopefully we can make some
progress on it if we are energetic and
um
surging I’m Lord
Horton one secr my notifiable interest
is as a defense adviser to a company
called Tes UK which you may have heard
of very familiar with them two questions
both on um defense money um the second
one I’ll I’ll touch on the very welcome
Prime ministerial um announcement of
last week and I’ll come to that second
first though can I ask you to be a bit
more reflective on perhaps the last 15
years you as me many as any UK
politician will know the degree to which
over 15 years we’ve disinvested to an
extent in defense and in doing so we’ve
we’ve hung on to the sort of the glossy
stuff the the tmic symbols of
international Authority but we’ve
hollowed out our conventional resilience
and therefore reduced our deterrent
posture can I can I interrupt you there
let’s do the second question second I
just although we work together very well
in government and I respect you I
completely disagree right the first
thing is when we got into government in
2010 you shave up my
um okay we’re going to journ for
hopefully less than 10 minutes
um I’m
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all I want to say answering a question I
hadn’t yet
finished you know forecast budget
deficit 11% of GDP there is no defense
and security without Economic Security
and we made the choice to deal with the
deficit get the economy growing and the
results of that were very successful and
as part of that we did make some
difficult choices very painful choices
you know to scrap Nimrod after all the
years and the money and everything else
to have you know several years of
aircraft carrier Gap we made choices I I
can’t do the agony for me of saying that
the seah harriers had to go when I think
of the amazing things they did in the
for we made choices the result of those
choices and the result of then a
well-funded defense budget always over
2% of GDP means that during those 14
years I won’t give you the full list
although I might we have you know there
for commissioned to aircraft carriers
the type 23s the type 24s the hunter
killer submarines think of the Air
transport we’ve you know the a400m the
new shanuk um helicopters the
c17s um think about okay not always the
most
successful um uh procurements but the
mobility for and fighting ability for
for the Army across all the services a
massive renewal program because we
sorted out the economy we made difficult
choices and then we invested I mean look
look in yes perhaps if I can now now you
can come the question is I recognize all
those difficult choices and I was part
of them what I’m asking you is on
reflection though to accept the fact
that the diminution of warfighting
resilience and therefore conventional
deterence is at least a part of the
reason that Russia invaded firstly
Crimea and then Ukraine it was a failure
of conventional deterrence in Europe no
no because you know Putin invaded
Ukraine in 2014 because he thought he
could get away with it because everyone
was distracted by what had happened in
in keev um and because NATO because
Ukraine wasn’t a member of NATO there
wasn’t it wouldn’t matter how many
weapons the rest of Europe had that
wasn’t going to deter Putin um if
Ukraine have been a me made a member of
NATO which I supported in 2008 when I
was leader of the opposition different
story so I don’t accept that the you can
make all sorts of arguments why we
should have spent more on defense but
the argument that had we spent more on
defense Putin wouldn’t have played
around in Ukraine in 2014 invaded in
2022 not the case I’m surprised that you
put such a low price on conventional
deterrents when one of the main
arguments I put a huge price on the that
is now declared is going to go on
building back the resilience and
conventional deterrence capabil of NATO
I’m a massive Mo on to the No No believe
me I’m huge fan of conventional
deterrence I absolutely believe it to my
to my marrow but the way deterrence
needs to work is you have to have both
the deterrence and the alliance to
deliver it and that’s what NATO and our
commitment to Nato is is all about the
tragedy for Ukraine is it wasn’t in NATO
and and uh you know and and I think
Putin did what he did because in 2008
when he did effectively the same to
Georgia the Western response was so weak
and it was so weak not in terms
necessarily or of military action I
don’t think that would have been
appropriate but there were no
consequences for Putin of his invasion
second the second moving on to the
second question the the most welcome
uplift of however mathematically it was
derived and there is some I say some
economic commentary to suggest it’s a
little bit of a managed figure but I
will accept 75 billion over the next six
years but there will be some somewhat
cynical observers will say that it is a
touch late on Parade firstly it’s late
on PR because as everybody recognizes
this is an absolutely critical year for
Ukraine during which actually what we
are in the process of giving might not
make it in time but also in truth um
only the 500 million package for Ukraine
is the only thing that is the uplift to
the defense budget over the next 12
months so in truth in the context of a
75 billion package
there is only one
150th of it that is likely to be spent
in the residual time frame of this
government isn’t that a little
slow first of all I’m not putting a time
frame on this government um let’s get
that one absolutely clear before we
start second of all what what the hang
on hang on what the Prime Minister has
said is that we are going to be spending
3 billion in Ukraine right if you add up
the 500 and the 2.5 3 billion this year
next year and for as many years as is
necessary you shake your head but I
don’t think everyone has noticed that
and it’s very important they do that is
a multi-year commitment and I would
argue that actually that’s the most
important thing we can do I’m coming
back to your argument million this year
next year starts in
2025 yes but so he’s what he’s announced
is going from 2% to 2 and a half% um you
know which I think is hugely welcome and
I’m amazed given all the speeches you
given about it you’re not jumping up and
down with excitement at 2 and a half%
this is a government that’s actually
delivering a really important pledge
which I think the opposition will have
to match and when it does will be it’ll
be a vitally important moment but when
you’re spending you know 60 70 billion
pounds on defense and you’ve got a
crisis in Ukraine one of the most
important things you can do is think
what have I got in my locker that I can
give to the ukrainians to help them in
the fight and if anything I would argue
the other way to to you and say we we
could should try and do even more uh of
thinking what we got in our locker that
we can give them because that’s where
the fight is if sad it’s too late forent
agree with that you can see the sort of
discussions we had within government
they were always very robust and I think
it’s important um uh Nick you know I I
respect very much your views but but I
do think this is a big this goes
completely off R I know uh you’ve got to
get on some stage and I’m going to move
on if that’s all right because we’ve
been interrupted quite a lot so can I
ask um lady Crawley to ask very briefly
her her question oh thank you thank you
very much um Belarus um recently
according to Reuters they’ve changed
their um position as far as uh security
is concerned and uh they have said the
government they have said that um they
would allow Russia to deploy dozens of
tactical nuclear weapons on Belarusian
territory should we dismiss this as
propaganda or should we we be paying
attention I also wanted to talk about as
you know the um uh the fact that several
of us in the house are God Parents to
Belarusian young political prisoners and
what effect do you think um your
sanctions government sanctions have had
on the regime is it hurting them we have
a number of questions I’ll as brief as I
can I mean first of all we aware of the
comments made by President Putin saying
that Russia’s deployed tactical weapons
to to belus we
at the vilia summit said that we condemn
this announcement and entire encourag
the entire International Community to do
the same obviously we monitor the
situation very closely um and it just
underlines the importance of the not
just the conventional deterrence we have
but of the nuclear deterrence that we
have uh in terms of bell us more more
broadly um we work hard to work with the
opposition and I I met with Mrs tikos uh
at the G7 foreign ministers meeting and
to do what we can to San members of the
regime for their behavior and as I say
to to try and work with um the
belarussian opposition to to chart a
brighter future for the country um lady
cousins thank you I just want to come
back very quickly um on your answer
about whether there should be a BBC
Albanian service because you said that
there were a number of other countries
that might have a stronger case but the
thing is it’s not about Albania it’s
about Kosovo where most people speak
Albanian so we’re not talking about
Albania which
Alan I completely the other answer I
want You’ come up with another question
the other answer I wanted to give was to
say don’t think the only thing the
foreign office does when it comes to
countering Russian narratives and
encouraging free media is back uh the
BBC World Service we do a lot we got a
very big department now that is working
with the covans and with the albanians
and others on how do you counter the
Russian narrative how do you take down
the Bots how do you uh you know stop a
lie before it’s halfway across the world
and also what do you do to help train uh
journalists and and uh stick stand up
for for free media just to give you one
example when you had the crocus Hall
attack the other day um and the Russians
tried it was obviously a uh is attack
and the Russians tried to blame Ukraine
and actually quite a lot of stuff
appeared on the internet trying to blame
the UK there were lots of Internet Bots
with a sort of hand with a Union Jack
around it pushing the terrorists towards
the crocus Hall and that was you know
brilliantly analyzed by all our stratcom
teams but the real challenge is how do
you stop that from happening even before
it does how do you take down uh these
many of them are fake accounts just
pedling this stuff and I think so
spending money on that is also part of
what we do to encourage free media
bearing in mind the value that we’ve had
from BBC Serbia wouldn’t it be a good
idea for you to give a bit more thought
to how to sit BBC Albanian not Albania
alongside that I I will certain
certainly go certainly go with think
about it we do a lot to help Kosovo i’
I’ve met with prime minister cty twice
in the last six months and we do a lot
to help them thank you um Lord wood the
prime minister’s repeatedly said that
he’s prepared to leave the ECR European
convention on human rights if it
interferes in its judgments with the
Rwanda policy the foreign office has
always maintained internally and exter
that that would diminish British
influence if we left the ECR and put us
alongside bellarus and Russia as the
only European countries not which side
are you on in this debate the foreign
office or the Prime Minister I’m on the
country’s side um and on the prime
minister’s side in that look you know we
we we don’t think that membership of the
ECR is inconsistent with the policy that
we’re pursuing which I completely
support and is necessary um but I’ve
always said you know when the
ECR sometimes does things that are you
know against our national interests you
should stand up and say so as I did with
the issue of prisoner votes so I think
they were completely wrong they were
trying to insist that you know we had a
duty to pass legislation in this house
and you know that we had to give all
Prisoners the vote and I think that was
nonsense so we should stand up for our
rights and stand up for our our
democracy we had rights in this place
including in This House Legislative
rights long before the ECR even came
into existence um so uh but I don’t
think it’s necessary to leave and I I I
I hope it won’t be necessary I know you
have to go soon soon um but lady Fraser
you”ve got a very quick question very
quick question um you’ve recently been
to America we’re very glad that they
have voted through the support for
Ukraine are you able to give us some
Topline thoughts on what you think our
relationship what are your what are what
is our relationship with America and
what are the implications for the UK as
we look forward over the next year or so
I think the great thing about the
special relationship is it is anchored
in um you know quite deep partnership
across lots of the military intelligence
uh diplomacy National Security and so
you know we’ve often had presidents with
different views and prime ministers and
presidents of different political
Persuasions but the relationship has
always been strong and that’s because
it’s based on fundamental values of
seeing the world in the same way and
believing in freedom and democracy and
the rule of law um and so we’ve been a
very reliable partner to them and
they’ve been a very reliable partner to
us and I think that will continue uh
obviously the Ukraine situation was
worrying because you know the money
wasn’t being voted through and uh the
Republican Party um you know was was
split and there are quite a lot of
people arguing we must prioritize the
southern border and all the rest of it
and so trying to make the argument you
know you don’t have to either either all
you can have border security and
National Security in fact it’s vital you
have both um and I’m glad that argument
won the day so I’m very confident going
forward um as as long as we keep
investing in our defense assets and our
intelligence assets and our diplomacy
that we’ll be a very good partner to the
United States and there’s no doubt in my
view that we amplify our strength and
role in the world by having those strong
alliances do you think we can continue
to rely though on the American Military
might in Europe I I think we can because
ultimately um history shows so clearly
that American disengagement in Europe um
ends in um a bad way and often ends in
America having to come back in and pay a
higher price in Blood and treasure than
they would have done if they had never
left so I think the his historical
arguments on our side but I think we
have a part to play in that in in saying
we recognize that we must pay more for
our defense and that’s why I in 2014 at
the Cardiff NATO Summit say come on
we’ve all got to do 2% and then I think
there are only three countries that did
and we’re now at sort of almost out of
32 and with this new announcement of 2
and a half% I think Britain can be uh of
course there are countries that spend
more than 2 and a half% but amongst the
big countries spending 2 and a half% in
Europe I think it gives us a great
leadership role to combine that military
decision with the diplomacy uh of saying
come on let’s more countries do more and
that would encourage the United States
to see that we are playing our part
foreign secretary I I know you’ve got to
go um thank you very much for coming we
really appreciate it and Philip and not
they had to do much
but we’re very grateful and I’m sorry we
couldn’t ask you more things sorry about
the votes I hope we’ve added a bit of
time back in but um thank you exactly
but thank you and and we’d like to come
back again very
much the proceeding has
ended
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The UK’s foreign secretary gives evidence at a parliamentary committee session