David Cameron gives Ukraine the go-ahead to use British weapons to strike Russia

David Cameron gives Ukraine the go-ahead to use British weapons to strike Russia

British long range missiles Storm Shadow cruise missiles could be used to strike Russian territory this is a big shift in Western policy well thank you very much for joining us I wonder what you make of this uh consideration that Donald Trump is is giving well it’s an easy comment for him to make because a lot of allies are talking about the 2% of GDP which is the goal today that it’s not enough uh as we’re dealing with Putin and the reconstitution of the of the uh Russian military and the the state of the battlefield in Ukraine Europe is starting to get really nervous about this and so I think at the July Summit here in Washington NATO allies might very well ask to to go at least to 2.5 to raise that goal so Trump coming online and saying 3% but he’s a bit behind the curve this time uh because I think allies are gonna go in that direction anyway well and the UK is is already um committing to 2.5% by 2030 okay it’ll take some time for that to come on board so I mean is this a sort of direction of travel Donald Trump would settle for something less than 3% if he became president or is it more threatening than that well I think I think you know Donald Trump repeats the first thing that uh someone plants in his head and so as you point out the Polish uh government was there planting that seed and I think uh Trump’s going to hold on to the 3% he he doesn’t even know what all that means you know he’s just he’s uh he’s using that 3% because someone told him that uh and I don’t think he’ll certainly back off it uh he’ll if he becomes president he’ll demand 3% and maybe even jump it up a bit if someone suggests that to him but I think that’s going to be the travel that uh allies are going to take coming up is this going to get it’s going to be a higher goal now and obviously when when Trump said back in February that he would encourage Russia to do whatever the hell they want to any NATO member not meeting the 2% spending Target there was quite a lot of alarm um if he does become president again how do you think he’ll handle NATO and you know protection of of Europe which is is obviously very key to to people over here well it’s a great question and it’s important to us over here too uh what he might do and uh we don’t really know he’s a lot of bluff and Bluster but we do know from his four years before uh that he came close to uh saying that he would pull the us out of NATO whatever that means I mean I mean certainly disengage the US a bit more from the alliance or from Europe pull forces uh and put them in different places you know he wanted to move US forces out of Germany and put them somewhere else so his track record shows that uh he doesn’t have Europe or nato in a very good light so I think in when he comes into Power if that happens if he becomes president that’s something that’s uh definitely a credible worry on both sides of the Atlantic and and you know there was a fascinating interview in in today’s Times um reflecting what the ukrainians think about what what’s happened to their country and the fact the feeling that really they’re on their own and they’ve been waiting so long for this assistance from the US for example um that when push comes to shove for all the talk actually you you you’re you’re on your own and I wonder whether that’s the the reality of it that Europe feels precarious and and threatened by these these comments that Donald Trump made because there’s a recognition that really if we do end up in World War free something we’re already there if we do end up in a a sort of Greater configration it’s kind of every man for himself well you know that’s a really interesting point if you talk to the fins uh they think that from World War II they felt that they were left alone UK did too if you remember uh there was a feeling UK was left alone as the US was neutral so I think history has shown that uh every man for himself if you will is kind of the base understanding but the difference in though is that we do have commitments under NATO under Article Five and so there is that and that wasn’t around for the F or for the UK and World War II it’s present now uh if Trump becomes the president uh how steady is that that commitment yeah uh is it worth the paper it’s written on well could be and and I wonder if that with that consideration that people are really every individual country is thinking they need to ramp up their own defenses how doable is it to get to 2% 2 .5% 3% and Beyond given the state of many Count’s economies well that’s exactly the point uh we can go at the at the NATO Summit and have that as the goal and all the heads of state and government can agree uh but it’s going to be hard getting there increasing defense spending uh is difficult even when the wolf is at your door and I think you can hear a lot of people saying that the Bear in this case is at the door uh so I think that we have a better chance of ramping up uh the um defense spending and the military capability that’s got to be purchased with that I think we’ve got a better shot at it than we did five or 10 years ago but still it’s going to call for European leadership it’s going to call for leadership from the United States and that’s the key is the leaders who say we’re going to make this work uh and they act together whether it’s through whether it’s bilateral with the Nations themselves or it’s through NATO uh but it’s taking action and not sitting and dithering that’s the problem and that’s what leadership has got to make sure happen well and that brings to mind the old adage about America picking up the phone to Europe who do they speak to um I mean who is the European leader that impresses uh America most at the moment well I tell you the the European leader who’s talking the most is uh president mael of France uh he gave that speech at the sorban uh The Economist interviewed him uh he has been really ringing the alarm Bell loudly uh and he’s involving the UK in this this isn’t just the EU he’s he’s talking about Europe so in terms of European leadership right now the one you hear about is maon in terms of impressing the US I think right now we are so uh deeply involved in the unrest in our campuses because of Gaza uh the presidential politics there’s a lot to distract Americans right uh well and and you mentioned Gaza there which brings me to my my final question really um Donald Trump’s been making this kind of anti-war case to American voters with pledges to stop the fighting in both Ukraine and Gaza is that going to get traction do you think well it just might uh in the sense of Gaza particularly Gaza has caused a lot of unrest across the US uh it’s gotten very emotional and uh I don’t think the Biden Administration has has been able to quiet the the waters here if uh if Trump rolls in and makes big promises about uh bringing peace and all that type of thing people might at a point now where they would actually listen to him not understanding that he’s a lot of talk and not a lot of action and I mean Gaza could end up being pretty uh crucial in in the coming us election campaign that’s absolutely right uh I think I think already Biden will be losing a lot of the youth vote uh and and votes from others who look over at what’s happening in the Middle East and are horrified by just the tragedy of it all uh and aren’t happy with us policies that might might have voted for Biden to begin with but they might not they might change their vote not that they would vote for Trump but either they wouldn’t vote at all or they vote for a third party and those kinds of votes are votes for Trump if you’re not voting for Biden but you’re voting for Mickey Mouse uh that’s a vote for Trump well let’s speak now to our defense and political correspondent for the Times George’s George grills George good afternoon to you good afternoon just expand a little bit on on what David Cameron is promising there I think what is most significant was where he said that British long range missiles Storm Shadow cruise missiles could be used to strike Russian territory this is a big shift in Western policy um Ukraine has of its own accord launched small sort of symbolic uh attacks um dis using sort of domestically produced long-range drones but also uh these kind of bands of of of troops to sort of launch Fays across the border so they have actually been striking Russia but not in a sort of concerted uh way that has any any any huge effect now Cameron has basically given Ukraine license to use sophisticated Western cruise missiles to strike across the border into Russia now that really is a a significant step up and and Russia’s reaction I mean I guess predictable in many ways another very dangerous statement um they said but uh is there a risk here that this whole thing sort of escalates the tensions that that’s what Russia would like us to think here in the west um and let’s cast our minds back to 2022 and the beginning of the fullscale invasion where there are all sorts of sort of apocalyptic uh you know Visions coming out of Moscow because the UK had sent a few anti-tank missiles what what the West has tried to Cal calibrate throughout its support for Ukraine is sort of ratcheting up the level the threshold at which it requires a Russian retaliation and they’ve called the Russian Bluff so many times before it felt like only a matter of time um and and and the the UK’s real use throughout this conflict it’s not the biggest donor of military aid or anything is that always it’s been the country that’s pushed the boats out the furthest it hasn’t ever given the most amount it hasn’t given the most tanks it hasn’t given the most you know artillery whatever it may be but usually it it increases that threshold and allows other countries to give more powerful weapons as well so the UK was the first to give Storm Shadow cruise missiles France followed with its scalp missiles now the us is going with its attack as well and for and up until now uh they’ve the ukrainians have had George I think I might have just lost you there which is a shame because I was going to ask you about uh Emanuel macron’s latest intervention asking about whether the West would have to consider whether to send ground troops to Ukraine I don’t know whether you caught that uh George just a final thought from you on on Emanuel macron talking about the West having to consider whether to send ground troops to Ukraine what’s what’s been the reaction to that yeah again predictably from Russia you know um he’s actually reiterating something that he had previously said uh he said it first Germany basically said there’s no way on Earth we ever do that but but the point is to try and blur those those lines so that Russia doesn’t really understand uh what the limits of Western support for Ukraine are how far the West will go um I think in reality it’s very unlikely that France or any other European country would put boots on the ground in Ukraine but it’s about not ruling it out it’s about making it a problem for Russia for them not to be able to to count that that that is definitely going to happen or not but you know indeed George grills thank you very much defense and political correspondent for the times

David Cameron has said it’s up to Ukraine to decide how it wants to use British weaponry.

The Times’s defence correspondent George Grylls and Jim Townsend join Cathy Newman on Times Radio.

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