Ukraine defends against Russian attack on border, Ukraine: The Latest, Podcast

Ukraine defends against Russian attack on border, Ukraine: The Latest, Podcast

I’m David nolles and this is Ukraine the latest today Russia launches an assault on the Ukrainian Border in harv we discuss Russian spycraft in the UK the links between the second world war and Russian atrocities today and we interview Anna Zeta the Ukrainian TV presenter singer and activist who’s one of the official commentators for Eurovision in Ukraine bravery takes you through the most unimaginable hardships to finally reward you with Victory if we give president zinski the tools the ukrainians will finish the job Slava ukraini nobody’s going to break us we’re strong we’re ukrainians every weekday afternoon we sit down with leading journalists from the telegraphs London Newsroom and our team is reporting on the ground to bring you the latest news and analysis on the war in Ukraine it’s Friday the 10th of May 2 years and 77 days since the fullscale invasion began and today I’m joined by our assistant comment editor Francis sternley Chief reporter Rob mendic and our guest is a professor of history at Western University in London Ontario Alexa dravic I started by looking at the latest news from Ukraine Russian forces are moving in the East intensifying attacks against harf a blast this is a developing story so the details at the moment are a little thin the Ukrainian defense Ministry has reported that during the day of May the 99th Russian forces carried out air strikes using guided aerial B bombs towards vens that’s a town to the north Northeast of harv City just a couple of miles from the border the defense Ministry said that in the evening of yesterday Russian forces quote increased fire pressure on the front edge of our defense with the support of artillery and at around 5:00 a.m. local time on May the 10th there was an attempt by the enemy to break through our defense line under the cover of armored vehicles the fighting is apparently ongoing and Ukraine has committed Reserve units to the front James Waterhouse the BBC’s Ukraine correspondent sums it up he wrote Russian troops try to break through the Border in the harv region say Ukrainian officials the town of vchan came under heavy bombing before invading Scout groups and armored vehicles tried to punch through his Ukrainian sources told him not a meter has been lost but fighting is ongoing there’s also been a heavy battle in the town of kfka in doneta Blast the town to the west of donet city and Southwest of adka Russian assault groups reportedly gained entry to the town before being stopped by Ukrainian TRS at the town’s refractory plant going north for a quick snapshot in the day of the life of Sumi oblast on May the 9th the Sumi ablast military Administration reported that Russian forces attacked the ablast 302 times in 60 separate attacks throughout the day firing at 11 settlements along the border with mortars drones rockets and artillery also dropping explosives from drones onto two of the settlements no casualties or injuries were reported further south there were five explosions heard across har a blast throughout the night H mayor eho tacov said on telegram that the strikes damaged homes and started a fire one person was injured linked to all of this Ukraine’s state-owned energy operator reported that Ukraine will face limitations on electricity usage for industry and businesses after weeks of Russian strikes against infrastructure the K of independent has a readout of the details here they’ve written that the head of the uh state-owned energy operator has warned that imports from Europe will not be able to completely cover Ukraine’s energy deficit as a result of these attacks energy supplies for Industrial and Commercial users have been restricted between 6:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. since May the 8th on May the 9th the restrictions were extended to 7:00 a.m. the following day due to power shortages from May the 10th capacity limitation schedules for industrial consumers will be in effect from 6:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. the next day moving from Ukraine into Russia Ukraine has broken records its own records with a longdistance strike on Russia on Thursday they hit a Target 746 mil from the border a Ukrainian defense Source said that the Drone attack which hit an oil refinery in the Russian Republic of bash kortan was an sbu project and was carried out at record range The Source added that the Drone had flown a total distance of 1,500 km uh the quote from the source the sbu has once again proved it has powerful technological solutions that help to inflict painful blows on the enemy earlier it was reported that Ukrainian drones struck two oil Depot in Russia causing large scale fires Ukrainian intelligence official said that the depot were used as Transportation hubs to supply troops in the nearby occupied peninsula of Crimea well those are all all the military updates as you can hear it’s been a busy morning Gathering those together the intensity of the fighting on the front lines from donet to Har has increased and we’ll keep a close eye on all of these developments and bring you another report of course on Monday Francis dley Can I Turn to You what’s the latest diplomatically and politically well thanks very much David we’re going to pay particular attention to Britain today which appears set to play an increasingly significant political role in the war in the coming weeks and months ahead yesterday Lord Cameron the British foreign Secret of course gave his big foreign policy speech laying out Britain’s Ambitions for the next few months in it unsurprisingly he urged fellow NATO members to meet pledges to spend 2% of GDP on defense saying a tougher foreign policy is needed in a world more dangerous than most of us have ever known he said the West was being tested by Iran Russia and China among others and that Nations must show the courage or allow our adversaries to write our future for us to quote him we are in a battle of wills we all must prove our adversaries wrong Britain and our allies and partners around the world he went on he said fundamentally nations are not learning the lessons of Putin’s fullscale Invasion quote if Putin’s illegal Invasion teaches us anything it must be that doing too little too late only Spurs an aggressor on this cannot go on we need to be tougher and more assertive now taken in unison with the promises made to the ukrainians last week that London permits British weapons to be used by keev to attack Targets on Russian soil and the significant recent donations Britain is evidently trying to do more at this pagaria time it’s still some way from denoting its red lines in the way that President macron of France has sought to do and in many ways Britain has not been as prominent in its leadership role as it was under the former prime minister Boris Johnson but these still Mark significant steps this language would have been Unthinkable before the war and indeed I think that there are echoes in some of this terminology of what macron has been saying in recent weeks suggestive that perhaps London is trying to assert itself in the way that macron has on the issue of Ukraine and European Defense now the other way that Britain seems set to become increasingly significant at least in the back corridor of Europe is in persuading other powers to give Ukraine the weapons it needs valy zi has now been officially appointed as Ukraine’s new ambassador to the UK after his name was put forward and S S suggest he will be taking Outpost over the next few weeks no one knows better than him the military situation given of course his role as former commanderin-chief of the Armed Forces in Ukraine nor how weapons can be best used on the ground so his appointment here suggests that he will play a significant role in the diplomacy in trying to encourage Europe via London to give more rest assured we’ve put in to interview him once he is officially impost now to those not following the intricacies of British politics and if so I envy you it is worth saying that Pauling here suggests that the conservatives the governing party that is the party of Boris Johnson Liz truss and of course the current prime minister RI sunak will not win the next election which most expect to take place around the end of this year around the time of the US presidential election now that means that Labor led by sakir stama will most likely take over now on Ukraine labor has promised a continuation and perhaps even an increase in its support for keev here Ukraine is nowhere near as much as a partisan political issue as it is in the United States and yet labor does have a wing on its far left labor is a left-wing party which is opposed to military interventions for ideological reasons so they may and I hesitate to to say may because I think most people are expecting a sizable majority for the moderates within kid’s labor party but nonetheless it’s important to say this may have some sway so Labor’s foreign policy may go undergo some changes depending on what the result is in that election so more on that of course as as it occurs but there’s no yet date set on when the general election will be here in Britain now just the final story I want to focus on relates once again to the issue of sanctions and their evasion regular listeners will recall that last year and as recently as several months ago there were major concerns within Russia that its commercial airlines might be forced to stop operating on mass due to the absence of official spare parts from Western manufact facturers well the financial times has done an investigation into this which is a detailed examination of what is currently happening it’s a very detailed piece but its Essence is that before Russia invaded Ukraine its Airlines got spare parts directly from Boeing and Airbus but now they are being obliged to buy them from International Smugglers which is ensuring that the planes are still flying using unofficial parts so Boeing in the piece is cited as saying there are no legal routs for Russia to receive its components but as the Ft says quote the problems caused by the sanctions were extinguished with a flood of money the airlines had the opportunity to buy parts for more money in smaller volumes and of lower quality but still meeting the minimum safety threshold now the UAE is a central Hub of this trade according to the Ft with parts getting through via countries not sanctioning Moscow the number of flights is now around the pre-war level and whilst in the long run it’s expected that many planes will become unserviceable with these quick fixes effectively not being sustainable it speaks to yet another area in which sanctions have not proven effective due to loopholes so for those interested in the sanctions issue I highly recommend this long read it’s very very interesting and we will add a link in the description well thank you very much Francis for your reporting there let’s go to our chief reporter then Rob mic Rob earlier this week we covered the news that Russia’s defense attache is to be expelled from the United Kingdom after James cleverly identified him as spy he’s been named Maxim elvic a colonel in the Russian military you’ve been all over this story this week we just covered the news can you give us some of the the background the color the details that I think would be appreciated by our listeners tell us more about Maxim and a little bit maybe about some of the prop that have been confiscated as well I’m going to wind the clock back a bit if you don’t mind to 2018 which I think is the context for some of this and that’s the poisoning of uh Sergey scrippal in Solsbury with novichok which is often described as Weapons grade nerve agent to alarm yet to find a normal non-weapons grade nerve agent if truth be told and at the time our our response was pretty decent we we expelled 23 diplomats and I think our security services were pretty confident that we dismantled a great chunk of uh Russia’s spying capability in the UK if not all of it and I think that what we’ve seen in the last five six years and recently is a regrouping by the Russians a different way of doing things so that while they had 23 spies here at the time and they could do to things which of which the scripal thing was extraordin they are now I think acted by what might be called proxy really which is getting other people to do them which is why we get on to Maxim elvic who was remaining official spy if you like left in the UK and now we’ve booted him out and that’s in response to what looks like an upping of activity in the UK by Russia postcript Al so the first time we’ve seen some proper plotting by the Russians here and it revolves around a couple of cases that we know about but I can’t tell you too much about because they’re subject to court cases coming up here so we have these sort of very tight contempt laws in the UK that make it difficult but one involves and James cleverly revealed this when he said we’re booting out elvic the other day and one involves the arrest and charging of six bulgarians can’t say too much about that because there is a trial coming up the other is charging of five other people in relation to a warehouse fire Associated to Ukraine in East London by mercenaries recruited through the Barner group I think and again a trial will examine that further but what it tells us is that the Russians post gripal have been asleep a bit and have now woken up I think and so we’ve booted up Maxim mic because we think that things are going on and the other thing we’ve done is look at these various properties and and it turns out and we knew this but never really properly examined it the Russian Federation has quite a property portfolio in the UK that’s worth tens of millions one of which the sex Heath which is a 50 room sort of giant mansion is there any other kind of mansion on the Kent Sussex borders south of London for those readers who aren’t familiar with the Kent Sussex borders and it’s tucked away way behind trees high fences and it’s basically Russia’s Dasher in the south of England and it was a place that was gifted to the Soviet Union in 1946 as a thank you for their part in defeating the Nazis by Family the vicount gosh who was a formula Chancellor of the exer who built this mansion in 1871 it’s a terrific looking place and you’d be happy to go there for your summer holidays and in the Soviet times Soviet officials would that pack their children off in the summer just as they would the normal Dasher out in wherever and they’d go and join them at weekends and all the rest of it but what the British say is that this place is being used for intelligence gathering and attacks and plotting and so we’ve removed its diplomatic status which would mean that police could now go and raid the place if they wanted to it it’s all about making the Russians just that bit more uncomfortable they’ve removed diplomatic status from some other buildings to these ones in Hampstead which is another slice of basically Russian territory in the middle of London which in itself is OD thing the British government said they were in Highgate which is a bit of London actually they’re in Hamstead overlooking Hamstead ponds which are famous sort of swimming ponds and there were giant offices for a Russian trade delegation and maximov’s office the of the Russian defense attache was also there it’s a pretty large plot that’s worth several million quid I mean it’s proper Prime real estate they’ll be surrounded by aors in Hampstead and all sorts of very wealthy business people and the like as well as several Russians and the government has said enough’s enough we’re stripping you of diplomatic status and that means that we as the police can raid it when we want to you can’t carry on doing nefarious things under cover of diplomatic protection and this is effectively no longer Russian Sovereign territory in London we’ll a wait to see what the Russians do in retaliation but they’ll boot out our defense atache from Moscow the British I I think realize and recognize that we need an embassy in the Consulate in in Moscow ourselves and we need to keep those lines open so it’s as far as we were prepared to go elev is is the first spy we’ve booted out since 2018 since those 23 were diplomats were expelled post so it shows cying to stay on top of things but it also shows the Russians have moved tactics that that they’re using others bulgarians British Nationals to do their bidding that and it gives them a kind of plausible deniability when things go wrong Iran have always used that tactic Iran loves to get sort of take an Eastern European gang F in do something nefarious and fly them out again then the Iranian regime could say wasn’t USG and the Russians have moved that post I don’t suppose we know the half of what they’ve been up to we get bits and Bobs and when people get ched then we get to hear about it Rob you answered all of my questions really before I asked them there thank you so much for talking us through that just one question for me um as you said there are reporting restrictions we’ve got to be very very careful what should our listeners know about where this story goes next well there’s a very high-profile court case star in the autumn off the top of my head head which is these bulgarians and I would be watching that one with great interest and that’ll be fascinating I think the Vagner group plot for of a better way of putting it of of this Arsen attack on a Ukrainian linked warehouse in east London will take a bit longer that those CH is a fresher British Justice can work a little slowly and equally these are complicated plots that need unpicking and investigating so that’s where that bit goes but I think I would also be looking out for other bits of I think we’ll just be on the watch now for peculiar activity if these latest actions and a warning to shot across the Russian ambassadors bows to say stop what you’re doing we’re on to you that might help but the Russians are clearly emboldened and I’m not certain there’s a funny little sort of adjunct think about the seock heath thing where in post the invasion of Ukraine the locals who spotted that this was a sort of strange Russian Enclave in the next to their Village of hcast started planting Ukrainian Flags outside the ENT entrance into the Mansion the driveway the Russians there a couple of Russian caretakers I think in there they started buzzing the local villagers with drones just to annoy them because they were so cross about the Ukrainian flags being planted outside their driveway and buzzing them during the day and in the night it was freaking everyone out and obviously the police will power us to act well the drones will have to stop Rob menik thank you so much for bringing us your report there we’ll come back to you for a final thought Alexa thank you so much for joining us it’s really really good to have you on would you just like to start by intr ucing yourself and your work to our listeners yes thank you uh first thanks for having me on yes so I’ve been spending the last about two years now developing a manuscript uh that’s currently now going through peer rreview that compares and contrasts Soviet atrocities during and after the second world war and what Russia has committed the atrocities they’ve committed in Ukraine today and in there I make the um argument that if we’re going to talk about historical memory and many scholars have talked about how the how Russia Today is replaying the second world war we also need to include uh the issue of atrocities the challenge there though is that uh Russia Today for example does not talk about the atrocities that the Red Army committed or that the nkvd committed and so uh it’s trying to figure out to what extent they are being inspired by what happened when we know individuals like Putin and other leaders at least consider themselves amateur historians and what I have found is that we can look at a couple of things so first off that there are a number of direct parallels where we can see very similar if not almost identical events taking place uh which can be instructive in helping us explain um why Russian forces are committing atrocities what is happening things like that but also there are a handful of um implicit and explicit Inspirations where we can see a StraightLine connection and my manuscript looks to one highlight all of this while also opening the door to a discussion about how history can help us um understand events today but also how historical memory does play a role in also well the atrocities that we’re seeing Russia committing Ukraine today well Alexa let’s jump straight in then can you talk to us a little bit about some of the events in the second world war perpetuated by the Red Army and put them alongside what you’re seeing in Ukraine today yeah so the I’ll maybe start by giving a quick overview of the structure of the book to show kind of the scope is that I’ve basically t uh developed five chapters based off of themes or certain events so the first uh chapter is looking at densification the actual processes of densification again we have heard how uh Putin and Russia have uh frequently claimed that they are densifying Ukraine and and we know that obviously that claim does not meet reality here however they are drawing on a specific history so one is that establishing that history but in doing so also there are the connections with regards to the Orthodox Church taking a similar role today as the Orthodox Church did during the second world war the next chapter focuses on sexual violence in which the accounts that we are getting from Ukraine are very similar to what the Red Army perpetrated on the Eastern front in 1944 1945 and I should also just quickly at this point highlight that while unfortunately atrocities are not unique to this situation they happen in virtually every war where I think that this is a useful parallel in this case for all of these examples is that one there’s that historical memory connection but it also helps us explain what could happen What might happen going forward what are the consequences simply because there are very similar operations between the two from there I go into issues of mass violence towards uh civilians uh what really started me on this topic was when I saw the some of the satellite and aerial photos of bcha I immediately thought of the ktim Massacre and the aerial photos there and so there’s also the history of looting that the Red Army perpetrates there are some connections there but also limitations to the comparison and that Terror bombing is something that the Russian forces are doing a lot more today than the Soviets did during the second world war although there are examples of that Helsinki Budapest Berlin obviously and then looking at population transfers rfication1 transfer of people with regards to Crimea obviously there is the direct connection there with regards to the forc transfer of the Crimean tatars during the second world war so there’s a direct historical connection there but also there are a variety of their population transfers and related to that as also the filtration camps that we are also hearing about that Russia is using today in Ukraine and finally I also look at weaponization of food in a couple of different ways many historians have highlighted the connections and the parallels to the H de MO again how the historical memory of the hore in Ukraine is resonating with ukrainians but I also think that the Famine of 1946 and 47 is instructive because for example the Soviets used that to allow them to bring to heal the Ukrainian nationalist movement then and we’re seeing obviously Russia attempting to well crush the Ukrainian state in some way shape or form um both through committing various forms of ethnic cleansing um but also Comm committing genocidal acts and and all of that sort of comes into this um study I also discussed things like the issue of children where there isn’t a clear parallel however things like the Comal things like how these youth groups that Putin is starting to revive they also have direct Soviet parallels so again there’s a lot of different aspects and every time I I always say to people when I’m talking about this is Russian officials are also making it much clearer that they are drawing more and more on this history and sometimes it’s in very small ways to give a very example last fall spoke about how with regards to some of the penal regimens using criminals to go to the front line uh to fight in Ukraine uh he explicitly says that quote they will atone for their sins with with their blood which is a direct quote of Stalin speech when he issues order number 227 which uh is more welln as the not one step back order coupled with that he also discusses the formation of penal battalions so you see these direct where they’re clearly drawing from this history to also justify their events their actions today there’s so much to get into here Alexa to what extent do you think this is cosplaying that to some extent because this is the historical memory because as we know Putin has made so so much of the the Great Patriotic War that there’s almost no other way in which you could act and to what extent do you think ordinary soldiers on the ground believe this and to what extent is this just an elite Obsession I think it’s a little bit of both in the sense that very clearly that a lot of what’s motivating especially some of the historical memory is the leadership whether it’s definitely the political leadership more than likely there is some military buyin but I also think that there are enough um now accounts that have come out through various reporting but also through bodies like Human Rights Watch even the uh Office of the High Commissioner of human rights from the through the UN that suggest that Russian troops on the ground have at least internalized some of this history so one of the arguments that I make for example is that by dehumanizing ukrainians in a very similar way that the Soviets dehumanized the Nazis by highlighting the for at least the Germans Nazi Germany committed extensive atrocities against the Soviet Union that’s not the case with regards to Ukraine but they’re drawing on that memory by claiming that Ukraine is committing a genocide in the donbas that uh they are trying to eliminate all of the Russians um that live in Ukraine they’re drawing on this to try to get an emotional response and then adding that history of Nazism this is something that again in in Russia will have be become very familiar with this is something that they have uh built up not just under Putin but uh it goes back this memory this importance of the Soviet defeat of Nazism which became the Russian defeat of Nazism this is something that has been part of Russian and Soviet historical memory for some time so it’s all familiar and there are a number of examples where Russian uh troops in Ukraine will basically dehumanize Ukrainian civilians by calling them Nazis by stating for example that they be able to procreate especially after sexual violence that they’re doing things like that where this is identical to what the Soviets cultivated and this dehumanization while the average Russian soldier for example might not be aware of the at least the scope of uh Red Army atrocities the actions that Putin that state media and whoever else might be ising orders are list are leading to the same results in some way shape or form and so that dehumanization I think is a key aspect of this and they are essentially in many ways drawing from that Playbook and much like Nazi Germany needed to be defeated and humiliated and brought to heal so too should Russian troops do to Ukraine Alexa when you talk about the Soviets of course Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union and shares in that history millions of Ukrainian soldiers fought Nazi Germany as well so why do you think this way of thinking about Warfare persists in Russia but doesn’t so much in Ukraine that’s a fantastic question and it’s something that I keep thinking about and the the broad sort of academic Community why has Ukraine gone on such a different path than Russia and there’s a couple of potential Avenues of thought one is is that Ukraine committed much more to Dem to democratic methods and democracy than Russia did Russia slid back into autocracy especially during the 1990s both Nations had economic difficulties Ukraine however managed incrementally even through great challenge both ukrainians and the Ukrainian State managed to do things to sure that there would be a liberal democracy that would develop liberal democracies while they also do commit atrocities too when I talk about the second world war um the United States Britain they also have a history of having committed atrocities during the second world war as well but more than likely there is an impression that at least they will be brought to justice for these atrocities and we’ve see this with um Ukraine today is that when there are credible reports of Human Rights abuses committed by Ukrainian soldiers for example zinski is very clear that there needs to be um some sort of ramifications and consequences for that this is something the world is watching very closely that’s one uh possible Avenue there is another argument that I have seen and I I’m less um convinced by it but I’ll share it which is this idea that especially after 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea and started the war in the donbas Ukraine has engaged in significant military reforms as a result of especially the influence of say of Western governments helping train and things like this this has led then to a military that is much more decentralized in which there is also significant discipline amongst troops that units are follow military discipline and these are things that are common militaries that fall into these things of having a decentralized order strong bond between comrades all of that can help prevent atrocities because it will not be for example approved by their officer the the problem with that is that Russia engaged in similar forms in the 2010s and I think really what the answer there is is that we assume um Putin obviously played a big role in the escalation in in February 2022 uh and that he is probably taking a a major role in also a lot of how the actual Uh Russian forces are being deployed and things like that and that recentralized brought back the old sort of Soviet style Army that they tried to undo the problem there is we just don’t know there’s a lot of speculation in that but ultimately a lot of it comes down to Ukraine following a different path and its soldiers being better disciplined and so that’s where we look to things like the Democratic nature of Ukraine but also the better discipline the better lasting reforms of Ukraine things like that I can imagine quite a few listeners will be nodding along with your analysis there can I ask how does your book how does your thinking how does your analysis of this help us better understand what may happen in the future help us better understand why the war is developing in the way it is so a couple of things so first off is is that that at the very least even just by Rec by considering what the Red Army did and especially afterwards so for example we know of the extensive sexual violence that Russian forces have committed obviously we know of the extensive sexual violence red army forces committed during the second world war afterwards there was a number of sort of uh results one is that especially when we talk about things like ethnic cleansing and genocide we have to also be aware that there is a russification of especially the Ukrainian female population through um any pregnancies that for example happen and one of the things that is only just starting to be better understood uh especially in the last decade or so in say for example Germany and Hungary is that there is a whole generation of what were qually termed and uh pejoratively called quote Russian kids that there was a generation of children where they parents their mother um had been assaulted by Soviet uh by the Red Army and and these children had um everything from behavioral issues to feelings of Abandonment to also attempts to try to actually find out who their father was um and it really then led to also strain on the family and this is just one example of something that Ukraine is going to have to also consider along with that when we talk about for example Russian occupation one of the things that the Soviets did is dur in Eastern Europe especially with the influence of over the Eastern block is these atrocities just weren’t talked about so you also have a generation that is then silenced from what they survived and this also plays a role in again how trauma becomes intergenerational how trauma also become a silent struggle for a lot of individuals we have a good sense of what Russian forces have been doing in occupied territories but as when Ukraine liberated more territory we then found out that the scope was often more and that’s one thing that again we we don’t know but we’re looking at events for example like what the Red Army did and this is just one example this sort of tells us sort of things to look out for things to be prepared about things like the sexual health of the nation is going to be something significant there’s already discussions about demographic issues in Ukraine as well and also just again with depending on how traumatizing the experience was it will lead to families potentially breaking up it will lead to feelings of humiliation and shame it will also lead to issues of desexualization where some individuals may no longer engage in sex which also then has the result of playing to issues of again ethnic cleansing and things like this where if Ukraine cannot continue on and future Generations cannot develop these are all things that can add up and will imprint themselves on how um Ukraine goes forward and it’s also why I think that any calls for peace without considerations of Justice without considerations of uh the social ramifications of what has happened is only going to ensure that there will be continued animous between the two Nations and for Ukraine rightfully so with Russia invading but again if there’s any hope for lasting peace there has to be some way to deal with the atrocities that have happened the trauma that has occurred to avoid again that silencing that happened for four decades during the Cold War during in the Eastern block Alex France is here thank you very much for your time you mentioned the cold war there and actually I wanted to just shift subject slightly onto that because I know you’re also an expert in global communism and one of the most interesting things I think when we look at modern Russia versus perhaps Russia during the Cold War period is that of course in the Cold War period Russia is trying to export an ideology which is by its very nature transnational communism is not rooted in an innate nationalism but in this idea of the the front International and the communism doesn’t need to be rooted in any one culture so connected to that I suppose I wanted to ask your view as an expert on that period in what ways do you think if at all but do you think that putinism itself can be a foreign export is it something that has a universality as well or do you think that this imperialism will only ever be as it were a danger to Russia and its immediate neighbors so that again another great question is with that as I would say it’s not so much putinism that maybe might be exported but the ideas of this sort of civilizational struggle that is at the heart of especially how Putin um and Russian officials especially they speak to the West we’ve seen them courting for example the global soth on a broader scale and this is drawing on the long history of Soviet anti-imperialism but also again the sort of obfuscation of Soviet imperialism that Russia is basically trying to draw on this history of Soviet and then later Russian support for Africa for Latin America for Southeast Asia and hoping that that then lead to again this block Putin has has wanted to develop a multi-polar world for many many years and he’s wanting to place Russia in that leadership position and I think that’s where the dangerous part is that by developing these relationships with the global South it’s only going to further again split the world in some way now to be also very very clear here the nations in the global South are not one a monolith one and two many of them are caught in this situation and and we can see this through through un votes for example that many are abstaining on votes as a way of protest they may not openly go against for example Russia but they won’t NE support what they’re doing and this is mainly be for a reason of U in some cases political reasons uh they require Russian support for their own political stability or economic reasons is that they have significant economic ties with Russia or China and as a result they can’t afford to rock the boat too much for fear of local disruptions and things like this and this is also where the long history of Western imperialism plays a role Russia and China can act as they’re not tainted by that never mind the fact that Russia has a long history of imperialism but they utilize this history that you mentioned especially during the Cold War and prior to that so the area I happen to know even better it’s the common turn period the 1920s and 1930s and they are developing this idea that Russia and China could be this leader of a multi-polar world to stand up to the west and especially the United States there’s also a reason why they I think they also focus on Britain so much in their present day rhetoric is again tying into that Imperial past as well as convenient and Al along with the long history of perceived English russophobia and all of that plays a role into sort of how I think Putin sees the world he wants to go back to this cold war esque system but one in which the majority of the population of the world through the global South is supporting him and supporting this restructuring of the world where the west and liberal internationalism or whatever you want to the liberal World Order would then be under siege by whatever Russia and China try to lead with economically politically and so forth that’s very interesting thank you Alexa I just wanted to just add one thought to that which is in a sense you’re saying that the threat is real politique as opposed to ideological in a sense in terms of how Russia operates today versus in in the Cold War my one added to that is that I would argue the danger of putinism is not as you say in an ideological sense because it is very difficult to try and encourage that idea which is so rooted in the idea of Russia internationally but what can be exported is the idea of an authoritarian leader who has strength who mobilizes an almost fascistic culture at home and that becomes something that countries want to emulate because it has been successful so if Russia is allowed to be successful in Ukraine then the model of what Russia has created in order to en that will become something that other countries will look at and say well if Russia can achieve it then maybe that model is successful it reminds me of the Benjamin Franklin quote where he says that the danger of for America or the danger for democracy is not what others do to it I’m paraphrasing here but what it does to itself and it’s that idea that countries begin to change to emulate what is successful and maybe that’s the danger of countries like Russia and China is that we try and emulate their Collective models rather than pursuing a kind of of idea of individual liberty because we fear that they are becoming increasingly powerful because of a more successful model than our own but it’s a fascinating subject and I think that’s a that’s a very fair point and I also just add just as in this is a bit of a reductionist sort of addition to that but even when we look at the interwar period part of what emboldens Hitler to engage be on actually acting on his AIMS in Eastern Europe and feeling that he can actually push up against the League of Nations and can push up against the British and the French is when invades abisinia and Europe largely allows it to happen that helps embolden Hitler to then realize hey I can do these things and so I think that there’s a very good point there in that that again if Putin is is not checked it encourages other powers to then uh see what they can potentially push back on and we’ve already seen a little bit of that with aeran and we’re against even smaller powers are going okay where can they operate to deal with some longing issues and things like that Alexa thank you so much for your time is there anything we haven’t talked about that you think is important for our listeners to hear the only thing I would just add is is that one of the other things that I’ve also written on is is how peace is Elusive and I just want to again I would always just stress is that always think about what is happening under Russian occupation that is often Beyond sort of the military realities one of the key issues here and is that for anyone seriously thinking about how there’s going to be lasting peace between Russia and Ukraine there has to be the issue of Justice these atrocities have taken place and they are of significant scope and the reality is I’ll paraphrase Francine Hirsch who’s a historian who cover who wrote a fantastic book Soviet Judgment at nurg and she made an argument a couple of years ago in an oped piece that the Soviet Union never really was punished for the atrocities they committed during the second world war and she makes the case that because of that Putin and uh Russian leaders today believe that they can get away with it again that if they they are never brought to Justice it encourages the behavior again and again how Russia will be brought to Justice I’ll admit I I have very few ideas especially when Russia doesn’t recognize the ICC but the hope is that at some point that there might be the opportunity whether it’s a Truth and Reconciliation Commission whether it is something through the IC whether it is somehow some way again I I don’t know how at the moment it’s hard for me to see it where there might be a Russian government that might be willing to basically face Justice for what they have done but the reality is that that’s going to be one of the key issues I think no matter when and how the war in Ukraine the Russia’s war in Ukraine is resolved the fact is that this is going to be a key issue in Eastern Europe for many many years to come because of that issue thank you so much for your time Alexa your final thoughts please we’re now two well over two years since the escalation this has been a war that’s been happening since 2014 just that don’t forget what’s happening in Ukraine I’m so thankful for podcast like this that keep attention on what is happening in Ukraine what Russia is doing to Ukraine and in Ukraine that there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is at least ethnic cleansing if not genocidal intent here that there’s an Imperial War happening and that ultimately at some point Russia will need to be brought to justice but um the only way that can happen sooner rather than later is for the support that Ukraine has gotten to continue and so I just hope that the Rumblings that support might be waning in certain areas again coming from Canada obviously looking uh to my Southern border and what might be happening in the United States depending on the presidential election there and that gives me great concern but just to keep attention on this to ensure that one we know what is happening and that we don’t forget what is happening what Russia is doing to Ukraine well thank you very much Rob and Alexa Francis on a slightly lighter note to end the episode I’m going to go to you as our official Eurovision correspondent be your final thoughts [Music] thank you David it would be remiss not to mention the world’s Premier song contest wouldn’t it I’ve had several listeners reach out and ask whether I’ll be attending as I did in Liverpool last year when the UK hosted the competition on Ukraine’s behalf regrettably not so listeners will be spared my overe excited backstage tweeting from last year but I will be watching it on Saturday and I’ve already watched several of the big acts Ukraine’s entry is through to the final and the main chorus it’s it’s rather rousing though I’m not entirely convinced by the rapping segment I’m sorry to say Croatia are in the mix as a possible winner I’d say as are Finland Britain’s never quite lifts off and the less said about irelands screeching contest the better uh but obviously there is a Syria side to all this for Ukraine it offers an opportunity to display its Defiance to the world that despite everything Eve stands that matters when the audience is so huge 162 million viewers last year in the past two contests Ukraine has featured very prominently indeed so it’ be interesting to see whether at this stage of the war reference is made to that again ukrainians of course are big Eurovision fans and for today’s interview going out in this episode I talked to Anna Zak leteta one of the official commentators of the contest in Ukraine who references that as well as many other subjects including Ukrainian paganism which is an interesting subject we’ve not yet covered but I digress if you want to join in the fun on Saturday if you share with me your photos of you watching the competition wherever you are in Europe or around the world I promise I will respond on Twitter if nothing else it should be a laugh one day I will try and drag Dom along for him I imagine Eurovision is far more of a hostile environment than being in a tank or a helicopter thank you very much Francis and just to all of our wonderful Irish listeners please feel free to contact Francis directly you don’t need to go through the the podcast email for that just Francis sternley and let us know of course Francis the kind of responses you [Music] [Music] get as Francis mentioned in his final thoughts for today’s interview he sits down with Anna Zeta the Ukrainian TV presenter singer and activist Anna is one of the official commentators in Ukraine at Eurovision on Saturday in a wide ranging interview at the fundraiser for the charity Ukrainian action they discussed the song contest folklore and her work for organizations helping ukrainians deal with trauma this is their conversation I am lucky to belong to the group of people who have always been very into Ukrainian folklore culture into a very authentic things into pre Christian history and traditions so I’m just lucky to be in this environment since I was born as my mother is a professional singer in National choir of Gori vov and this is academic but National traditional music it’s very well known in Ukraine and maybe you can Google and see they are very nice and my father has been always in the group of people who fighted for Ukrainian identity for the right to be free in what to create uh not to write about Communist Party of Soviet Union but to develop absolutely different kind of uh level of culture and as a matter of fact level of living in quality so our environment has always been like full of Classics live people who are right now very well known in Ukraine like Nina matenko or yans ver or veslav chaville or Anatoli hamaka those are like Bohemian Ukrainian people who wrote books who painted beautiful things who represented Ukraine all over the globe and I was just a small girl listening and watching them all the time and I was lucky to observe it from the very childhood and my dad has always told me that this war will start because culture matters language matters you’ll and they will use argument for language to come to their people to create the illusion of unique Market unique uh space and that’s why we’ve been always exploring Pagan culture we’ve been always exploring our Traditions we’ve been always speaking Ukrainian many artists unlike Alex kka chose to sink in Russia because it’s big Market it’s huge you can travel and get money and also the factor of so-called fifth column that Russia never saved money for propaganda they picked people and made their life luxury so whenever you see something attached to Russia it’s always huge Posh very expensive cars expensive everything and they did their best to do the completely opposite things to people who were actually the barriers of Ukrainian national interests like old cars bad apartment we were the group and still are group of volunteers artists who travel to front line with the concerts for military and civilians of Ukraine because it is a problem in Ukraine that so many people have never been farther than their own yard and when they watch Russian television where they say oh be afraid of European Union because it’s all don’t know gays will eat you or some absolutely absurd and stupidity but if they don’t see it they start believing and if they are brought up in the conditions of no critical thinking then they don’t have this Habit to analyze they don’t have this Habit to act and that’s why we had number of different projects festivals and things like that to actually reveal those skills to people that if something is dirty around you you actually can stand up and clean it if you don’t like something you actually have Constitution where it’s written that you can go to your Member of Parliament or you can become Member of Parliament if you don’t like corruption stop doing it on the lowest level start paying taxes you have to educate people to be active citizens after being oppressed for such a long period of time exactly and it’s longterm plan it’s not easy but especially working with the children you don’t have to remake something you can just give them the perspective and the options but they can choose them consciously not just by pattern that was given from above like in Soviet Union unfortunately for ukrainians it’s a very high price to come to its identity to protect our land for many people actually to start value freedom and and uh everything that we had so I pray that we will be wise enough to make right conclusions not to go in circles again and again because in our history this situation happened before and we hope that this is the last war we’ll come to your work with women and families in a moment but just staying on culture you are a broadcaster talk to me about the broadcasting landscape in Ukraine today because of course it’s gone through a lot of changes in the last 10 years or so and even in this period of the fullscale invasion oh yes it was the Strategic plan I think of both fifth column with the legs growing from Russia to buy National popular channels by people who control and Who start making content for their interest which is logical and uh National Broadcasting Company where I work it was discredited step by step but in 2017 we finally came up with a reform for Public Broadcasting and so far it’s very successful the team of people who are managing it fantastic of course there are some inner intrigues or conflicts everywhere but you can feel it that those people are connected by the idea and ideology and national interests which are actually National Security and beginning with the food fullscale Invasion these commercial channels who used to belong to oligarchs finally lost their high ratings and right now we feel investigations show that National Broadcasting Company has the number one Trust of ukrainians and we value it very much we try to do our best not to lose it and to to stick to the highest standards of Journalism of course I’ve just come back from Ukraine and it was something quite noteworthy I think to see the number of programs documentaries interviews and also soap dramas about men coming back from war and how their families are dealing with that and that’s actually an area that you’re dealing with in real life not in fiction so can you tell me a little bit about those projects that you’re working on well the most important project for me in that context is definitely the platform for psychological help woman and War because my concept and my idea is that rebuild bricks roads schols whatever material is much more easier than rebuilds the soul and the whole country is definitely in trauma now even those people who went abroad because of the full scale Invasion the level of the trauma is different but still it is there and we have to be so attent to what we are joking about to what we are saying because something can be a trigger to very aggressive thing and another thing is about why did we choose women to work with because when the fulls scale Invasion started I worked as a psychologist with the military groups and at some point I understood that they need to be so strong and when I work with them and pushing some vulnerable buttons it just makes them soft makes them sensitive and it’s controversial to the situation that we had but what they have at home people who are waiting for them their families mostly wives it’s not that we are very conservative about that it’s just women and just men but for those people who have to know in a new way how to communicate with them especially when they are after the battle when they don’t want to touch when they don’t want to talk because it’s a nightmare that you would not wish to anyone when they see death when they see blood and uh if he doesn’t go out with the garbage as he used to do before we need to understand how to communicate it’s not like to become silent or talk to me talk to me talk to me but know how to actually formulate this like I see that you are maybe tired right now and maybe you don’t want to talk about something but in case you want I am here and it’s fine that you don’t want to do something so just to speak but it’s something new that we need to learn and it’s including with the children as I told you don’t laugh very much loud when you’re in public please because for someone it can be very annoying because those people are back from Battle understanding that rules of communication need to be changed because there are so many people who lived through the Nightmare and who still do and of course you’re describing there a process a phenomenon that took place in Europe after the second world war it’s something that’s quite familiar here people talk about their parents or their grandparents and their inability to communicate the trauma I remember my grandma she never liked to talk about the second world war never it was like living through it again and on one hand right now as psychologist I understand that I don’t want to push her on the other hand I’m so grateful that she did because I know it from the first person who experienced she was 70 something when she talked to me about it can you imagine and she lived through the second world war when she was 18 so it’s like huge period of time passed but she still was in such a bad place to talk about it it was still very painful and this is something that we also have to take into consideration well onto a very Grim subject is something a little bit lighter and a different historical Peri entirely I know you’re fascinated by as you were referencing earlier on Ancient Ukraine in essence pre Christian Ukraine this is a subject I know that Professor Timothy Snider who will be familiar with many listeners is also very much fascinated in and is writing a book about at the moment so stay tuned on that I think we’re going to be hearing a lot more about this theme but can you tell me about where that interest comes from and what what it was like in that period what was Ukraine in the ancient times oh oh I think that we don’t have enough time to listen to those stories from me because I adore this topic and I love talking about it but to make it briefe actually I am about to publish my book as well and it’s not scientific book but my the decision was made because due to Ukrainian history always torn between Empires and Soviet Union made his job really good to cut the roots to assimilate people to change their names to lie them about their history to take away their real estate and their belongings and right now Christianity became like basement for our culture and that’s why 10 years ago I started to write these stories of my grandmother right now she’s not with us anymore but I have them recorded and written and it’s going to be a book soon because I wanted to be that grand grand grand grandmother for my grand grand grand grandchild so they have this family book with these beliefs which uh are native for our family and also with the events that it’s happening around me so it’s not that I’m retelling someone’s story but if someone in 100 years will come and say no Russians came to invade you they can you see grandmother you have a record of yes so it’s something that I’m leaving and watching and as for this pre-christian culture it’s is very m multi-layer topic and it’s impossible to say in a few words but I will try to tell you that you see me wearing red black and also white is there and the brand is called stre in Ukraine right now they use it for different um meanings one is to be in good shape another one is actually cloes both minions are right but the ethology is fantastic you hear it even in English three like Tre it’s about three dimensions of our life first one in the black Dimension it’s the world of potential Darkness without light where roots are growing when you wear black you activate energy of creation it’s perfect convas for creation because you choose where where to put light what colors to choose and to show so it’s called Nava lower Roots world the next level is yava it’s what you see Pro what and it’s red it’s the level of living of passion of Love of energy of creativity of being seen I’m very bright when I wear red but also there’s a tweak if I want to hide I also can wear red because you will pay attention to this but not to my face my emotion so you can play with that and the white world is opposite to the black one if black is absence of light then white is presence of all the Spectrum as you know from physics depending of the angle of the ray if you have this diamond so this presence of all the potential in on Dimensions that is already existing and uh three three is actually about three three three three three three it’s all one root words and it’s about integrity when in Ukrainian language when we speak about being in a good shape we say Str or Str it’s all has same root same root because string string by the way is struna when you are not too relaxed or not too stressed you can play your own Melody and when it’s also stry to build ST means in good shape so it’s about being integrated being whole in the meaning of wholeness when Roots light and all energies are balanced so you play your own Melody without false you hear your string just the way it should be not comparing to any others not lying to yourself it’s very interesting and it’s just one branch of this multi-layer topic of Ukrainian Pagan culture that I can really speak a lot it’s a fascinating subject and one that I’d love to return to with you when the book is out listeners will know my love of ancient history so you’re definitely preach are converted here just to end on another subject that listeners will know I’ve I’ve got affinity for which is Eurovision I understand this year that you will be there doing that coverage for the national broadcaster it’s in Malmo in Sweden are you looking forward to it are you a big Eurovision fan and what does it mean to Ukraine now it has very much been something that has been a core pass I think of the cultural understanding of Ukraine in the last few years exactly it’s like cultural diplomacy or the first place and Eurovision is very popular contest in Ukraine and we have so many discussions like maybe we shouldn’t send anyone because it’s war in Ukraine it’s not on the time but on the other hand many people all over the globe still don’t understand the difference between Ukraine and Russia they think that what is it about don’t they speak the same language don’t this have the same music so for us it’s crucial that we have representatives and Ukrainian people are really talented I mean I don’t say that British people or French people are not talented but we sing all the time it’s in our blood we cook we sing We iron we sing we do everything we sing and it’s so natural for us to be in this sun contest it’s so natural to participate and for me it’s I’m very excited to go there actually I work for in National Broadcasting Company for radio station pring which is translated as Ray and we are official partner of the event and it’s interesting that the song of Jerry Hal and Alona Alona for this year sounds like and Etc and my children I have three of them they are still very young daughters four and six years old they don’t understand who is Maria and Teresa because they never had this context and they just fanatically hear it like and you know how it’s translated our sober mother is with us and there’s a coach and an O Mama mother tza sober divon a coach a sofa and oah oil so it’s very funny that actually a song about such powerful women is heard by my children a sober mother is with us I think that should be my blog from Eurovision from malma when when I’m there hey sober mother is with you let’s speak about your vision well rest assured we will be covering this year’s contest on the podcast and thank you so much for your time thank you very much and I’m pleased to meet you and to talk to you and looking forward to the next opportunities to tell you more about pagan culture Ukraine the latest is an original podcast from the telegraph to stay on top of all of our Ukraine news analysis and dispatches from the ground subscribe to the telegraph you can get your first three months for just1 at www.telegraph.co.uk Ukraine thelatest we’ll sign up to dispatches our Ukraine newsletter which brings stories from our award-winning foreign correspondents straight to your inbox we also have a Ukraine live blog on our website where you can follow updates as they come in throughout the day including insights from regular contributors to this podcast you can listen to this conversation live at 1:00 p.m. London time each weekday on Twitter spaces follow the telegraph on Twitter so you don’t miss it to our listeners on YouTube please note that due to issues beyond our control there is sometimes a delay between broadcast and upload so if you want to hear Ukraine the latest as soon as it is released do refer to the podcast apps if you appreciated this podcast please consider following UK cine the latest on your preferred podcast app and if you have a moment leave a review as it helps others find the show you can also get in touch directly to ask questions or give comments by emailing Ukraine pod telegraph.co.uk we do read every message and you can contact us directly on Twitter you can find our Twitter Handles in the description for this episode as ever we are especially interested to hear where you are listening from around the world Ukraine the latest was produced by Rachel Porter and the executive producers are David nolles and Louisa Wells [Music]

Day 800.

Today, Russia launches an assault on Ukrainian border towns in Kharkiv, we discuss Russian spycraft in the UK and the links between the Second World War and Russian atrocities today, and we interview Anna Zakletska – the Ukrainian TV presenter, singer, and activist, who’s one of the official commentators in Ukraine at Eurovision.

Contributors:

David Knowles (Head of Audio Development). @DJKnowles on X.

FrancisDearnley (Assistant Comment Editor) @FrancisDearnley on X.

Robert Mendick (Chief Reporter). @rmendick on X.

With thanks to Oleksa Drachewych, Professor of History at Western University. @ODrachewych on X.

Articles / Episode Referenced:

‘How Russian jets are still flying’ (Financial Times)

https://www.ft.com/content/f8d61a5d-708f-47c4-8dbd-0e80452dea5a?shareType=nongift

Secrets of the Kent Kremlin: Putin’s English spy mansion (The Telegraph)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/08/secrets-kent-kremlin-gothic-mansion-putin-spies/

Subscribe to The Telegraph: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

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