I find the number of anti-democratic idiots on here amusing. If EU members can state they want more centralization, then so too can others state they want it to be less centralized or to remain the same. How about those that want more centralization just form a country together and be done with it?
Sure, PiS isn’t really the right party to talk about rights or freedoms, but the point is still valid.
As for the money argument, given how wronged Poland was, especially by the Germans, and especially in WW2 (not to say abandoned by its allies to be destroyed even more by the Soviets), yeah Poland more than deserved the money it got.
The Polish PM thinks of his supporters the same as Trump did. He called them “stupid” multiple times yet – time and time again – they are lining up to defend him and hs criminal governmental enterprise and would die for him. Even here on this sub.
I dont see the EU surviving without continued centralization. Its either devolving into a pure trade union or evolving into a federation. the current state isnt stable
Have to wonder what they think their endgame is.
Insulting members who literally give you money? Attacking the commission which has the power to block your funds? Not too smart…
Did they really think the “rule of law clause” that was agreed and fought over in the COVID recovery package wouldn’t be used? That its just words on a piece of paper?
By singing that package they gave the commission a stick and are now daring them to strike… why wouldn’t they? Does the Polish public not get that the rest of the members are starting to get fed up with their nonsense?
Oh no
Anyways…
The EU commission should just block any funds and use every sanction against them. If they reject the EU legal order, they don’t deserve to be in the EU. And quite frankly, I would not be dissatisfied with it if the ECJ uses kompetenz-kompetenz and goes much further in actively sanctioning them to maintain the legal order.
I know lots of Poles want to stay in the EU, but this is their representative legal government. Their population on the aggregate level has picked sides.
Having standards is not “centralism”.
Based!
So it seems that we’ll end up having two Europes. A federal EU and a loosely united trade bloc. Can’t say I’m opposed to the idea.
In other words
We say ‘yes’ to authoritarianism – Polish PM
Germany will keep paying lip service in public, but they will have the bois’ back behind the scenes, as they always do. Daily reminder that the V4 countries together make up [Germany’s biggest trade partner](https://i.imgur.com/ho8g9Ut.jpg), surpassing even China. Business will continue as usual, and the EU will once again be exposed for the powerless meme it is. It’s sad but that’s how it is. Even Merkel is calling on everyone to calm down and sit down for a “debate”.
It all fits into the current reality, Lukashenko waging hybrid warfare across the eastern EU border, China flying hypersonic missiles around the planet—hard times are coming, and they call for pragmatic solutions, not for idealistic federalist dreams popular among the Brussels’ elites and some woke redditors, there’s just no hard power to back it up. Maybe we’ll have a truly united Europe a few decades from now and it will be beautiful, but in today’s geopolitical climate I just don’t see it as realistic enough.
Good. Millions of people died fighting for their countries trying to prevent Germany or France from taking over.
EU Federation = Franco/German domination.
I have said it before and I say it again, if you can’t follow the rules of an organisation then you shouldn’t *be* in that organisation.
Withhold all EU funding to Poland, I say, until they either stop their bullshit or leave the EU.
As they should
Read the Lisbon treaty you sorry lot
Every time i see things like this coming from a conservative ruling party all i can think is “we’re in this to win elections not to make the country better for our people”.
I see shit like this in my country as well, especially now when people don’t seem to see or even want a middle ground; it’s either my way or get the fuck out.
Everything will work out in the end i’m sure of it, but it’s a bit sad at the moment.
I both agree and disagree with that statement. I know many things would make sense to do on a EU level. But at the same time, i do not trust the EU with a lot of different subjects.
On a more general level, I see this dispute as a more of a East vs West worldview clash.
Poland, due to its history, is very sensitive on the matters of sovereignty. There is a strong sense of national pride and society is very uniform (in terms of nationality, religion etc.). Also, one the of the biggest (and very ingrained) fears in Poland is the one of losing sovereignty. Polish history education is basically a streak of “losing / fighting for / regaining” our country. Right-wing politicians are constantly “tapping to” to this fear and use it for political gains.
West on the other hand, is having trouble understanding that. The sovereignty is obviously valued there, but not so “religiously”. Core Western countries feel closer culturally and societies are more mixed and open. Additionally, West has a long tradition of freedom/democracy and sees Polish actions as a violation of these.
It’s not ” EU centralism”. Just follow the treaties Poland agreed to as an EU member.
It’s ok to be against more centralisation, but we can’t have a union with authoritarian states. States without proper basic freedoms, both press and personal ones (LGBT etc.), states with unchecked corruption etc. So even for a more loose union trust in each member state for the implementation of common rules and the rule of law needs to be guaranteed. So the only way where Poland can do what it wants with its legal system is to leave the EU, but you can’t have both.
Based.Let the germans keep screeching
Just yeet poland out of the EU. They dont deserve our money.
Stop breaking the law, polish PM.
The EU today is hardly centralist and very far from being a federation of any kind. It’s actually just a little bit more than an international organization. The point is: if you want to have a unified market that works fairly for everybody, you need a central authority to regulate it. And it’s precisely what the EU does, under heavy influence of the governments of the member states. If the EU wouldn’t do that (and that’s exactly the function of EU law primacy), then what else is there left for the EU to do? Organize meetings and protocolar dinnners? We have the Council of Europe to do that already. Without regulatory power (or any kind of authority to regulate above member states powers) the EU would be just a free trade agreement like many others, with all the related defects (unfair competition, unreined multinationals, neoimperalistm, monopolies etc.). The real reason why Poland is doing this lies in the political mentality of Kaczinsky, which is (and I know he would deny it) quite in line with the soviet political style. The Soviet political culture openly disregarded the divison of powers in three branches and advocated for a unified and centralized government power in all areas. That’s exactly what Kaczinsky wants to achieve and that is a direct clash with the Western european political culture, on which the EU is founded.
OK. Off you go then. Nobody’s forcing Poland to stay where they don’t want to be.
30 comments
Join the club!
Er, no, wait a sec…
They certainly don’t say no to EU funds…
Agreed
Translation: gib mucho money and fuck off.
But ‘yes’ to monies.
I find the number of anti-democratic idiots on here amusing. If EU members can state they want more centralization, then so too can others state they want it to be less centralized or to remain the same. How about those that want more centralization just form a country together and be done with it?
Sure, PiS isn’t really the right party to talk about rights or freedoms, but the point is still valid.
As for the money argument, given how wronged Poland was, especially by the Germans, and especially in WW2 (not to say abandoned by its allies to be destroyed even more by the Soviets), yeah Poland more than deserved the money it got.
The Polish PM thinks of his supporters the same as Trump did. He called them “stupid” multiple times yet – time and time again – they are lining up to defend him and hs criminal governmental enterprise and would die for him. Even here on this sub.
I dont see the EU surviving without continued centralization. Its either devolving into a pure trade union or evolving into a federation. the current state isnt stable
Have to wonder what they think their endgame is.
Insulting members who literally give you money? Attacking the commission which has the power to block your funds? Not too smart…
Did they really think the “rule of law clause” that was agreed and fought over in the COVID recovery package wouldn’t be used? That its just words on a piece of paper?
By singing that package they gave the commission a stick and are now daring them to strike… why wouldn’t they? Does the Polish public not get that the rest of the members are starting to get fed up with their nonsense?
Oh no
Anyways…
The EU commission should just block any funds and use every sanction against them. If they reject the EU legal order, they don’t deserve to be in the EU. And quite frankly, I would not be dissatisfied with it if the ECJ uses kompetenz-kompetenz and goes much further in actively sanctioning them to maintain the legal order.
I know lots of Poles want to stay in the EU, but this is their representative legal government. Their population on the aggregate level has picked sides.
Having standards is not “centralism”.
Based!
So it seems that we’ll end up having two Europes. A federal EU and a loosely united trade bloc. Can’t say I’m opposed to the idea.
In other words
We say ‘yes’ to authoritarianism – Polish PM
Germany will keep paying lip service in public, but they will have the bois’ back behind the scenes, as they always do. Daily reminder that the V4 countries together make up [Germany’s biggest trade partner](https://i.imgur.com/ho8g9Ut.jpg), surpassing even China. Business will continue as usual, and the EU will once again be exposed for the powerless meme it is. It’s sad but that’s how it is. Even Merkel is calling on everyone to calm down and sit down for a “debate”.
It all fits into the current reality, Lukashenko waging hybrid warfare across the eastern EU border, China flying hypersonic missiles around the planet—hard times are coming, and they call for pragmatic solutions, not for idealistic federalist dreams popular among the Brussels’ elites and some woke redditors, there’s just no hard power to back it up. Maybe we’ll have a truly united Europe a few decades from now and it will be beautiful, but in today’s geopolitical climate I just don’t see it as realistic enough.
Good. Millions of people died fighting for their countries trying to prevent Germany or France from taking over.
EU Federation = Franco/German domination.
I have said it before and I say it again, if you can’t follow the rules of an organisation then you shouldn’t *be* in that organisation.
Withhold all EU funding to Poland, I say, until they either stop their bullshit or leave the EU.
As they should
Read the Lisbon treaty you sorry lot
Every time i see things like this coming from a conservative ruling party all i can think is “we’re in this to win elections not to make the country better for our people”.
I see shit like this in my country as well, especially now when people don’t seem to see or even want a middle ground; it’s either my way or get the fuck out.
Everything will work out in the end i’m sure of it, but it’s a bit sad at the moment.
I both agree and disagree with that statement. I know many things would make sense to do on a EU level. But at the same time, i do not trust the EU with a lot of different subjects.
On a more general level, I see this dispute as a more of a East vs West worldview clash.
Poland, due to its history, is very sensitive on the matters of sovereignty. There is a strong sense of national pride and society is very uniform (in terms of nationality, religion etc.). Also, one the of the biggest (and very ingrained) fears in Poland is the one of losing sovereignty. Polish history education is basically a streak of “losing / fighting for / regaining” our country. Right-wing politicians are constantly “tapping to” to this fear and use it for political gains.
West on the other hand, is having trouble understanding that. The sovereignty is obviously valued there, but not so “religiously”. Core Western countries feel closer culturally and societies are more mixed and open. Additionally, West has a long tradition of freedom/democracy and sees Polish actions as a violation of these.
It’s not ” EU centralism”. Just follow the treaties Poland agreed to as an EU member.
It’s ok to be against more centralisation, but we can’t have a union with authoritarian states. States without proper basic freedoms, both press and personal ones (LGBT etc.), states with unchecked corruption etc. So even for a more loose union trust in each member state for the implementation of common rules and the rule of law needs to be guaranteed. So the only way where Poland can do what it wants with its legal system is to leave the EU, but you can’t have both.
Based.Let the germans keep screeching
Just yeet poland out of the EU. They dont deserve our money.
Stop breaking the law, polish PM.
The EU today is hardly centralist and very far from being a federation of any kind. It’s actually just a little bit more than an international organization. The point is: if you want to have a unified market that works fairly for everybody, you need a central authority to regulate it. And it’s precisely what the EU does, under heavy influence of the governments of the member states. If the EU wouldn’t do that (and that’s exactly the function of EU law primacy), then what else is there left for the EU to do? Organize meetings and protocolar dinnners? We have the Council of Europe to do that already. Without regulatory power (or any kind of authority to regulate above member states powers) the EU would be just a free trade agreement like many others, with all the related defects (unfair competition, unreined multinationals, neoimperalistm, monopolies etc.). The real reason why Poland is doing this lies in the political mentality of Kaczinsky, which is (and I know he would deny it) quite in line with the soviet political style. The Soviet political culture openly disregarded the divison of powers in three branches and advocated for a unified and centralized government power in all areas. That’s exactly what Kaczinsky wants to achieve and that is a direct clash with the Western european political culture, on which the EU is founded.
OK. Off you go then. Nobody’s forcing Poland to stay where they don’t want to be.