International pressure on Putin stops his ATACMS retaliation strikes | Michael Bociurkiv

International pressure on Putin stops his ATACMS retaliation strikes | Michael Bociurkiv

should Mr Putin reach for those types of weapons he will be annihilated within half a day um even if it doesn’t happen uh China will draw a red line and tell Moscow not to take that route so I think um we’re now seeing Western leaders get over that fear uh I think they’ve come to realize that Mr Putin is quite the con man when he makes threats to use nuclear weapons or strike Western targets uh he he’s not the strong man that he projects himself within inside of Russia and um I I think they’re coming to realize that hello and welcome to Frontline for times radio with Me Kate jaabo and today we’re talking to a ukraine-based global Affairs analyst with more than two decades experience in humanitarian work and international journalism Michael bosv is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and has been a spokesperson for the organization for security and cooperation in Europe he’s also an author and a regular commentator for many International media Outlets Michael welcome back good to see you again um now Michael you’ve been in New York for an annual media conference focusing on Ukraine news reporting has concentrated recently on the Russian incursions and advances in the har region now the Ukrainian military have complained consistently they might have been able to do more to defend themselves against those attacks had they been allowed to fire NATO supplied weapons into Russia Russian territory like attacks for example if and when that ban is lifted because there is a report in the New York Times that may be imminent how significant is it sure good to be with you well um it it I think it does fall into the category of a GameChanger because Ukraine has long since the start of the War uh claimed that it needs to have the capability to strike legit legitimate military targets deep inside Russia the the kind of you know military bases where those long range missiles that are destroying kadu and other Ukrainian cities day in and day out are launched from so um there’s also um a kind of eagerness in Ukraine to take out bigger targets like the Kirch straight Bridge which a lot of the military supplies comes over that up until now they’ve been managing to poke holes into it so to speak but this is a big big deal um I think there up until now there’s been a nervousness in Western capitals about Ukraine strike capability deeper inside Russia because you know there there’s fears that this would um prompt more retaliation from Russia well we can’t uh have a war like this where the party being attacked is like a David and Goliath fight you know where where Ukraine has one arm kind of tied behind its back so longer range and more powerful Warheads will give Ukraine a huge capability and I think um finally will’ll act as a deterrent as well because um it it the time has come where this cannot be sustained that Ukrainian cities especially energy infrastructure is being attacked day in and day out K needs the capability to take those out and it’s the fear of escalation that’s held back such a move so far Russia has renewed its threat that it will retaliate it says um on British targets if Ukraine uses British weapons to strike Russian territory that that’s after remarks made by the foreign secretary David Cameron suggesting he it as legitimate um how seriously should those threats be taken well um I think the big fears in Western capitals including in London is that if things do escalate Mr Putin will be tempted to um follow through on his threat to use tactical nuclear weapons um but I I we just spoke my Global impact show co-host and I’m Melissa Rie the other day with Ukraine’s top Diplomat to the UN Sergey cuta and he is thinking he made this point very very clearly that should Mr Putin reach for those types of weapons he will be annihilated within half a day um even if it doesn’t happen uh China will draw a red line and tell mosow not to take that route so I think um we’re now seeing Western leaders get over that fear uh I think they’ve come to realize that Mr Putin is quite the con man when he makes threats to use nuclear weapons or strike Western targets uh he he’s not the strong man that he projects himself within in inside of Russia and um I I think they’re coming to realize that because a naval ship was sunk just days ago in Sebastapol according to British intelligence using Precision attacks and there’s been no serious escalation yet all we’ve seen is apparent tactical nuclear weapons exercises in Russian occupied areas of Ukraine so empty threats do you think that do you think that’s proof that these threats are empty yeah absolutely and you know um I I’ve said this many times on air I think um Ukrainian officials as well as Western leaders who are pleading with taxpayers to give them the ability to fund the war in Ukraine have to make the argument much much much stronger that look this is a real deal that we’re getting in terms of arming Ukraine um for 3% let’s say of the annual US military budget Ukraine has been able to destroy about 50% of conventional Russian military capability and above and beyond that they managed to destroy about 30% of the Black Sea Fleet and also forced the Russians to move ships from sasto to safer safer Waters hence opening up crucial uh grain corridors uh for the World Market so um I I I think if this message begins to get through to Western audiences I think leaders will have an easier uh job selling this uh Aid to Ukraine and just how much attention do the battlefield and political de developments get in the US at the moment sadly it’s falling off the radar quite a bit I mean with the elections coming up in November lots of coverage of Trump’s uh daily charades in the courtrooms um you know the Israel uh Gaza conflict U it it’s tough to keep that type of a story in the headlines but you know as you referen to the top we just had a Ukrainian journalism conference here in New York City and um a lot of the analysts there said Ukraine has to do do a kind of better job to humanize the story who are the ukrainians above and beyond those fighting at the front line and what do they stand for and um also um personalizing stories is very important as well so I think if the ukrainians and Outlets can do more of that type of coverage the message will get further uh to Western audiences there is right now um harrowing footage filmed by drone coming out of the town of V Chans some 45 miles from KH it’s been heavily bombed with soldiers being sent Rel Russian soldiers being sent in relentlessly to replace those that have been killed it’s being raised to the ground uh bodies in the streets how how urgent is that situation to get that out people to see that and and to stop it suffering the same kind of Fate as marup for example yeah it’s so heartbreaking to see this you know and what we’re saying playing out in places like Mar opo and K oblast is what Ambassador CA taught us the other day is that the destruction is on a level far far worse than for example what the Nazis did uh in their Advance into Eastern Europe uh where it scorched Earth tactics and um right now Kad the second biggest uh City in Ukraine a center of politics of learning and of culture is being very very badly hit the one kind of piece of the story we can’t really put together yet is um a few months ago actually in February when president zinski gave his two-year press conference he was asked by the Ukrainian media so what of all of these millions of dollars that were supposed to go to building defenses to uh stop the advance of the Russians and he said well it’s it’s being deployed it’s being worked on but as um the BBC reported just a few days ago uh there were Pockets where Russian troops just walked over the Ukrainian Russia border with no uh kind of lines of Defense whatsoever so uh I’ve also uh read comments by some Ukrainian military commanders that um where did these millions of dollars go that were meant to build these defenses so what um what Ambassador cza also told us is if kkil is going to be properly defended they need a minimum of two Patriot missile batteries immediately um that’s the other thing um that we can’t really put together here is why is this Aid that was approved already quite some time ago why is it taking it why why is it taking so long to get into Ukrainian hands the need indeed is absolutely desperate how long do you think uh Russia will or or can sustain this kind of onslaught though well um the um the argument has to be made U and again Ambassador cuta made this very clear is that actually it’s the first time Ukrainian official has said this he said that and again this is Ukraine’s top Diplomat to the United Nations he said that the Russian economy has shown a resilience that none of us had expected um the replacement for example of uh the Minister of Defense from shyu who is known for siphoning money very very badly out of the um defense system has been replaced by a technocrat economist who is probably going to make uh this kind of military economy even stronger and more resilient um sanctions uh have limited shelf life uh the best ones probably have a year and a half at best and the Russians have been able to do great work runs with the help of former Soviet States Z bistan and Kazakhstan of the world as well as allies like India China uh who are buying Uh Russian oil and other Energy Products so it it’s a big concern um and um my my view on this is that um when it comes to the point where the average Russian or especially the Elites in Moscow and St Petersburg if they really feel the bite of sanctions they feel the isolation they won’t be able to travel to Dubai and the Maldives and elsewhere that’s when the kind of rubber hits the road and there’ll be much much more pressure on Mr Putin to do something perhaps even bring an end to the war and on the subject of money there was a meeting in Italy this week of G7 Finance ministers it’s expected to discuss that the legality of handing an extra 30 billion euros in seized Russian State assets by way of a loan uh to Ukraine to help reconstruct or buy arms yet again it’s very very slow progress in trying to release any of these uh this money that’s been seized um but could it make a significant difference and set a precedent absolutely and um we have to remind everyone that the bulk of that money those seized uh Sovereign funds from Russia is in Europe it’s not here in the United States or in Canada so it’s very um important that the Belgium especially which were hosting Euro clear pave the way for at least the interest from those billions of Frozen dollars to to go to Ukraine and I think this is the way things have to go because if you take come kind of talk to the average person here in the United States about the war in Ukraine they have other concerns on their mind and they can’t understand why their taxpayers money is going to fund the war in Ukraine and if Trump gets in God forbid it’s going to become much more difficult to get a to Ukraine hence I think more of the responsibility uh has to move to the European continent after all it’s much closer to the war but again that’s where much of these assets are are frozen and look you know we all understand uh the concern of Belgian and uh and others that this may call into question the reputation of you know Euro clear and of you know the reliability of of the Euro but uh what’s worse having a bit of a dent to your reputation or Mr Putin being allowed to go further into Europe damaging economies uh creating Havoc worldwide the other thing I’ll quickly say um is that you know the Russians um have developed a very very um I would say even impressive Playbook of causing chaos around the world um destabilizing democracies without firing one shot you know things these days can be done uh by cyber attacks and other means uh undermining elections that sort of thing so we cannot as a civilized society let our Eye Off the Ball here we have to do everything it takes to push Mr Putin back and just to go back to that that what you’re talking about before about this scorched Earth uh kind of tactic policy whatever you want to call it um You’ said earlier that that um Putin uh you can’t underestimate his thirst for territorial expansion how much of the country do you think he is prepared to destroy in the process of this war well it’s a very good question it sends it chill down my back just to think of it um look I’m normally based in Odessa uh a beautiful city which was built by many different nationalities and which is at the end of the day a crucial component of the global food supply chain um we see almost on a daily basis now uh Russian missiles and drones coming our way and it’s caused a lot of panic a lot of anxiety you know and I’m really sad to tell you this but people in Odessa who have been part of building of modern Essa or the foundation of it are either leaving or thinking of leaving and I think the Russians know exactly what they’re doing by these Scare Tactics so it’s not only scorched Earth po policies or approaches it’s also causing fear and panic uh throughout the country the Russians are also developing new tactics when they do fire uh drones and missiles they basically take a securious route around Ukraine so they set off alarm Bells throughout the country including in the middle of the night and that causes a lot of disruption we only have to look what the Russians have done in other theaters for example in Syria and chire and elsewhere to to know how far Mr Putin will go this is a regime that doesn’t think twice about even killing its own people for its own purposes and blaming it on others so uh he’s not to be uh underestimated but it is very very sad again going back to Kip to see what is going on in this beautiful city uh just so much uh destruction and nothing nothing is off the table for the Russians uh churches uh museums places of worship uh civilian apartment buildings um it’s it’s very very sad yeah and how how further does that ambition go how far does it extend to including the the raising of civilians culture identity in Ukraine I mean you were talking earlier about how how that conference that you’ve been at that you were saying it’s really important to to show the Ukrainian people who they are and what they eyes I presume that’s like a countermeasure to what you see is going on in Ukraine at the moment yeah well what we said what was said at that conference as well is that um we are seeing history repeat itself in Ukraine Russian aggression the liquidation of the of the the Ukrainian Catholic Church the forced man-made famine under Stalin of 1932-33 that is happening right now we had a session for example on Echo side uh what Russia is doing to the environment in Ukraine blowing up dams um mining uh agricultural fields on a scale never seen before uh chemical attacks uh cluster bombs you name it it it’s causing massive destruction to the environment in Ukraine which will take generations for for to recover so I I think that’s a key part of has to be a key part of kind of the Ukrainian strategy is to bring to life uh these attacks and how they impact upon people how they’re destroying the culture uh we also had a session by the way of what happens behind the scenes in se’s territory for example in the donbas how the Russians um have a very very developed Playbook of changing curriculums and uh replacing Ukrainian radio and TV with their own channels so um it’s it’s it’s something that is happening on a kind of industrial scale in Ukraine but not very well understood by the West now what do you think the West needs to understand about it well I think they need to understand is the brutality the extent to to to which Russia will go let me give you an example if I may I mean I remember um in the first few months of the war we saw the attacks uh starting on MAR opo for example that theater where women and children were being were taking shelter hundreds died in a Russian strike there but it was that particular strike on uh a maternity hospital in Mar opal uh which was apocalyptic in nature it was a probably a 500b bomb that landed on the grounds of that hospital and you saw that kind of iconic image now of a pregnant mother being taken out on a stretcher she ended up dying and soed her child I look at that I look at that phot and I want to vomit it’s it’s just so horrible but it the reason it gets me so angry is because you would have thought that what that would have been a red line way back earlier in the war but we’re seeing red line after Red Line after Red Line being crossed and this only in buin not only Mr Putin uh but other autocrats as well uh where does it end and how far you know I guess at the end of the day what people should understand is that the type of Destruction apocalyptic destruction we’re seeing in Ukraine if Mr Putin is not restrained he will bring that level of Destruction to other neighboring countries that will if it’s a NATO country that will require uh Us and other Allied troops on the ground and will become much much more costlier when you talk about red lines being being uh gone over again and again and again um as a person yourself who has Keen interest in humanitarian work and by extension I believe human rights uh one of the most overlooked tragedies of the war is this treatment of children forcibly removed from Ukraine to Russia why is it the world seemingly is numb to this and there there hasn’t been more of an outcry and outrage about it yeah you know it’s a very good question uh look I’m a former Global spokesperson for Unicef I represented UNICEF um in the West Bank in Gaza and you know there that’s a type of ongoing um burning conflict which has Peaks and lows if you want to call it that and I remember very well way back then in the day uh telling about what CH telling people what CH children are going through in that particular crisis and um there are many reasons that this numbness has if we want to call it that has taken over but I think one reason is that those who are supposed to be speaking out on behalf of children’s children rights um have kind of lost the microphone and I don’t think they’re making the argument forcefully enough but going back to the situation in in Ukraine is um it’s children’s catastrophe by any way you look at it not only the forced deportation of thousands and thousands of children to Russia where they forcibly adopted where they’re forcibly um brought into this very U Russian patriotic curriculum but also um what they’re facing on on the ground in Ukraine uh the disruption to their education the disruption to their play um you know there was one video um we played at the conference that everyone saw and it was about a young it it showed a boy perhaps 10 years old uh being interviewed by a TV reporter just after his playground had been struck by a Russian missile and he said you know I never thought I’d see the day that this would happen to my own play area I saw the destruction of bcha of churches there but now it’s happening to us and that look in his eyes the tone of his voice is something I’ve seen in other conflict areas for example in the Gaza Strip and it’s so because overnight these young innocent beautiful children are being forced to take on kind of the demeanor of an adult you can see the darkness in their eyes as well but also um you know you realize that their youth has been abruptly brought to an end and what kind of future are they are they’re going to face and one more point I mean I I spend so much time in Ukraine and I go to cemeteries uh on purpose to see for example how much they’ve expanded over the course course of a few months and some of them have reached capacity if you go to some actually if you go to many villages in Ukraine there are no men there anymore um if you travel throughout Europe or even here in the United States you see Ukrainian mothers and their children on the goal seeking safe shelter so I make this point because imagine what it’s doing underneath the surface to the social fabric of Ukraine these split up of families and again this is not something that is going to bounce back overnight once hopefully there’s a peace deal so it’s very very sad to watch it’s really interesting um because um there are going to be these peace talks in Switzerland taking place next month um and uh zalinsky is urging countries like China to take part um at those peace talks I mean it seems strange that that there is a concept of having peace talks at this point um but is it more about what do you do afterwards about the Reconstruction what kind of things might be talked about there yeah I think this is a meeting where we probably keep our expectations low but hope for the best um 160 countries were invited I think we at over 50 now that i’ I’ve accepted uh the ukrainians and the host country are putting forth a very deliberate effort to attract countries from the global South but um it doesn’t look like Brazil will be taking part uh China probably won’t be at the table I’m not unsure about India uh South Africa we’re talking about members of the that bricks Coalition uh it’s very very important that they be there um Ukraine um has somewhat belatedly uh put now put emphasis on working more on the global assult getting African countries involved uh Central South American countries because at the end of the day um a lot of these issues are voted on for example in the UN General Assembly and in subcommittees and things like that so it’s very important to have them as part of this but um the it’s going out too badly I mean half of the countries that have that are going to be attended attending our uh non-european countries we’re also going to be watching out at what level is going to what is going to be the level of representation of the respective countries there’s talk that this happening so soon after the G7 Summit in Italy that perhaps President Biden will detour and attend the summit as well so this isn’t going to be um remarkable if we’re not at least at the level of foreign ministers or leaders of the representative count but uh whether it will um end up in a sudden peace for Ukraine I doubt it Russia is not going to be at the table but it will signal to the Kremlin to Moscow that these countries that have that are attending and again hopefully at a very high level are in support of Ukraine are in support of a peace treaty um and then you know China um I said this the other day um Shu Jinping is one of the few global leaders ERS that has the ability to pick up the phone call Mr Putin and say bring an end to this now uh China has not done that China can’t even bring itself to call this for what it is a war they call it a crisis the Ukraine crisis so it’s very very important that U China have a look at itself in the mirror and start calculating the cost to World instability to uh grain corridors that sort of thing and take a more principled stance isn’t it more urgent for Ukraine’s allies to degree what victory should look like and Define a strategy to get there so that all its allies can get behind it yeah absolutely and um you know the zalinsky government has a 10-point peace plan that includes U uh the complete withdrawal of Russian troops the return of pw’s uh territory to be returned um The ukrainians Have and very very understandably quite uh a a strong uh position and that is is that all of these territories have to be that that are occupied have to be returned to Ukraine including Crimea uh many analysts uh can’t uh don’t see that happening um and I think the Russians their strategy is kind of a war of attrition they they’re they want to wear down Ukraine they want to wear down the West so that eventually they have a stronger position in the bargaining table but I asked um again Ambassador kitza um uh you know if he had the opportunity like like the Palestinians and the Israelis did way back in Oso uh to enter go enter a room together put aside their differences and talk about a path to peace he said well I’m actually doing that most days I’m in you know the the UN General Assembly or in the security Council and I see Russia right there but he his answer I agree with him said well we we could talk but at the end of the day it’s the kind of attitude the the mindset of the Russian people that isn’t going to change um that they allow their government to do this type of aggressive behavior so there’s a lot of different aspects to achieving a path to peace um I think also turkey their role is going to be very very important um you know as a broker not only as a a key um kind of negotiator for peace with between the Russians and the ukrainians but also as a guanter for peace as well I just wanted to ask you because um last time we spoke you said you were very interested in documenting Russia’s influence and growing influence in Africa what what have you seen since we last spoke yeah sure well my goodness um you know it’s on many many different levels um for example um you know I was in South Africa as you know and you listen to the radio there and a lot of the channels are just parting what Mr Putin said or what Russia Today said we find that happening by the way uh very heavily in in South America where Russian um propagandistic media channels have very very big influence so there’s that but there’s also the Russian um race uh in in interestingly kind of in competition with China to get to uh Russia to sorry to get to African mineral resources blood diamonds that sort of thing because uh these These are the exactly the sorts of things that fund the Putin war machine um the the the one thing I haven’t being able to get a grasp on um since that failed um attempt by the Wagner group to take take over Moscow is to what degree has the billion dooll Machinery that the Wagner group had to mine minerals in in Russia how much that’s been disrupted by the the you know assassination of their of their leader Mr prosan um but you do have other entities connected to the Russian state for example through gas prom which are keeping that flow of money going so a lot of Russian influence there and of course um they have much much more resources diplomatically to uh manipulate and to pressure and to threaten smaller weaker uh African countries to vote a certain way for example in the bricks uh setting or in the UN General Assembly so huge influence there and and sadly again um Ukraine is a bit late at the game in terms of um putting itself forward more robustly on the continent and you know developing friendships with potential allies there when you talk about uh Ukraine being bit late to put itself out there how how much power how much Freedom do the media outlets in Ukraine H have now and how evolved are they yeah very good question well look um we went into this war with a very um poor State of Affairs for the Ukrainian media a lot of the main TV channels were owned by oligarchs and um a lot of the media channels were not did not have stable sources of revenue then the war came uh martial law was declared and the Z Administration kind of coralled the main channels into what’s called a 247 tele Marathon which has served its purpose in terms of getting information out but ratings have really fallen and none of these channels are making uh Revenue the uh War has been absolutely so destructive on the media sector in Ukraine we talked about this a lot at our Ukrainian journalist conference um for example there’s a huge human resource problem many journalists have been killed well over a hundred many have been drafted or at the front line many have gone there to volunteer and many have left Ukraine for safe safer Haven the number of newsrooms that have closed across the country are in the hundreds now and also there’s been massive destruction of physical infrastructure so our argument or our sorry our kind of effort right now is to help boost the Ukrainian media sector to raise uh help them raise revenue to set standards and also to help them deal with their human resource problems so we’re looking at a number of things uh creating alliances for example between Ukrainian journalism schools and schools here in the United States for example like Colombia but uh we’re also making the argument there’s going to be um a another Ukraine reconstruction Conference next month in Munich and um it boggles the mind that at none of these conferences the Ukrainian media sector has brought up but our argument is that for all of these billions and billions of dollars to come into Ukraine for reconstruction we first need a very viable Independent Media sector because that’s how corruption will be kept at Bay and by the way businessmen the last time I checked need reliable information to make sound investments in a certain country so uh we we feel this is something that can be done fairly simply and fairly quickly while a peace deal is is uh being forged ahead uh it’s very very important that that happen because it’s also really important I I presume that the messaging and the information the control over the War about how the war is going in Ukraine who has the upper hand who has the advantage and the perception of that that’s going to heavily influence uh long-term support for Ukraine and perhaps have an influence on and and we know that Putin is playing on this to make it look like well if we stick it out long enough they’re just going to give up I mean that that whole messaging is absolutely crucial isn’t it it is and um you know the public opinion polling in Ukraine has indicated that actually most people in Ukraine would like the zinsky administration to um be more forthright not sugarcoat everything as much as they did so they can get a better grasp you know I mean I’ll give you an example that two-year War anniversary press conference Mr zalinski pegged um the number of Ukrainian servicemen dead I think is around 31,000 um a lot of people believe that number to be far far higher um I think um in terms of messaging the ukrainians have to do a better job Tinker with their messaging to say this is actually what’s happening this is the level of Destruction uh journalists uh have long since complained that their access to the front line is quite restricted uh the penalties for Ukrainian media to overstep martial law reporting regul regulations very very severe so it’s imposed a kind of attitude of self-censorship especially with Ukrainian media but um yeah it’s you know this is the reality of the the world we live is that um unfortunately people really have to see disruption up close and very vividly uh to to make an impact and I I hope that message gets through and just finally uh Michael you’ve described yourself as an honory citizen of a which you’ve made your home how is life there now how optimistic are your fellow citizens about it and Ukraine’s future yeah you know um whenever I go back to aesa I can’t wait to go back I I am just you know amazed Amed by the level of Civility of kindness that are shown to people like myself even during this time of War I told you about how these Aid Sirens keep people awake through the night but they have taken it on board they realize that this is part of warfare that we have to keep on going uh we have to keep our businesses alive a lot of people hope that um you know tourism will eventually start coming back to that region it’s very very important um so people are very resilient but having said that there are very very strong people that I referred to earlier in the interview who um have to take a break and are leaving and I do fear that this will have a kind of a c cumulative effect on on the economy there you know a lot of ukrainians are when they wake up in the middle of the night and they hear these Miss Russian missiles go off and drones over their heads they go where is the where is the Western support where are those Patriot missile systems that are meant to defend and everyone everyone in Odessa realizes that they are living in a port city this port city as I said is a crucial component of the global food supply chain and why is it that the West has not even given a fraction of the aid of the defense that it’s given to the Red Sea uh to protect those uh shipping lanes why isn’t it doing the same for these very crucial grain corridors having said that uh there is good news to share with you I mean the last time I was at the Port not that long ago there were a lot of ships lined up carrying grain but for the first time since the start of the war containers are starting to be moved as well and of course this is really really important because Ukrainian roads and rail systems are overwhelmed with container traffic if they can shift a lot of that back it will not only improve uh Ukraine’s economy trade uh impact positively World Markets but it also bring a lot more employment back to Odessa you when you live there as long as I do you realize how far the tentacles go throughout the city of that Port that so is the lifeblood of adessa in many ways so um that that is something U that is really really great to see uh is that Revival of that Port Michael really good to catch up with you thank you so much for your time my pleasure thank you for having me you’ve been watching Frontline for times radio with me K chabo my thanks to our producers today Lou syes and Morgan berdick and for you for watching if you’d like to support us you can subscribe now or you can listen to times radio for the latest news and in-depth analysis or go to the times.co.uk for now though thanks for watching byebye

“Ukraine has long since the start of the war, claimed that it needs to have the capability to strike legitimately legitimate military targets deep inside Russia, military bases where those long range missiles that are destroying Kharkiv, another Ukrainian cities are.”

Western deterrence and red lines from Beijing have stopped Putin from retaliating over Ukraine’s use of Western weapons on attack sites in Russia, Michael Bociurkiv tells Frontline on #timesradio

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