Trans women don’t have the right to use female lavatories, suggests Starmer

24 comments

1. (Article)

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   Sir Keir Starmer has said transgender women do not have a right to access female-only spaces, amid confusion over Labour’s stance on which lavatories trans people should use.

   The Labour leader said biological males who have legally transitioned should not enter areas designated for women, insisting those spaces “need to be protected”.

   His comments came after two of his frontbenchers refused to say whether someone with a penis should be allowed to use women’s lavatories.

   In an interview with The Times, Sir Keir was presented with a question posed by author JK Rowling on whether people who are born male and have gone through a legal transition process should be able to use female-only spaces.

   Writing on X, formerly Twitter, the Harry Potter author, who has said she would “struggle to support” Labour if he does not change his stance on trans rights, asked: “Do biological males with gender recognition certificates have the right to enter women-only spaces? It’s a simple yes/no question.”

   In response, Sir Keir said: “No. They don’t have that right. They shouldn’t. That’s why I’ve always said biological women’s spaces need to be protected.”

   The Labour leader added that he hoped a meeting with the author, who has been outspoken on trans issues, could be organised.

   While Sir Keir did not mention lavatories specifically, his comments suggest a hardening of Labour’s stance on the issue, after two shadow cabinet ministers refused to say whether trans women who have not undergone gender reassignment surgery should be allowed to use women’s facilities.

   On Monday, Jonathan Ashworth, the shadow paymaster general, was asked by LBC’s Nick Ferrari whether he would want a trans woman with a penis to use a male or female lavatory.

   The Labour frontbencher replied: “I’m not a toilet monitor.” When pressed to clarify his stance, he said: “We don’t have police officers outside or guards outside every set of [lavatories]… Matters like that are for individual establishments.”

   His comments came a week after Bridget Phillipson, the shadow education secretary, refused eight times to answer the same question.

   She had previously suggested that transgender women should be able to use the women’s lavatory.

   Last week Sir Keir clashed with a radio caller who accused him of speaking “absolute twaddle” over access to single-sex spaces.

   A BBC Radio 5 Live listener called Jane said the Labour leader was “not listening to biological women when they say they don’t want to share a space with biological men”.

   The trans debate has become a key battleground in the election, with the Tories accusing Labour of planning to “dilute women’s rights” by introducing self-ID “by the back door”.

   To get a GRC trans people have to receive sign-off by a panel of doctors and lawyers and provide two years of evidence that they have been living in their new gender.

   Labour has said it is planning to “simplify” the process, which it has branded “degrading and torturous” for trans people, by downgrading both requirements.

   The party has said it would keep the requirement for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria but that this could now be provided by a single clinician.

   It would also downgrade the requirement for evidence to a two-year “reflection” period, which could mean a medical diagnosis is all that is needed for a certificate.

   Under the plans there is no requirement for people to have either had gender reassignment surgery, or be planning to do so, in order to legally change their gender.

   Elsewhere in The Times interview, Sir Keir also said people would feel “better off” by the end of Labour’s first term if his party wins the election.

   He said: “I have led and changed Labour. If we get the opportunity, we will govern as we have changed Labour, which is to take the country from the pretty poor place that it’s in at the moment and to seriously change it, so that by the end of the first term of a Labour government people will be able to say, ‘do you know what, I am better off’ — materially better off in the sense of ‘more money in my pocket’.

   “But also better off in the sense that my public services are working again. Schools are what I would expect from them. I have a belief in the future for my children. That requires a serious plan with a strategy, which is what we set out in our manifesto.”

2. To be clear, we do have that right and we will continue to use that right. He’s lying here, straight through his teeth.

   This haunted fucking briefcase is literally flaming the culture wars by lying about what rights we have.

3. Must be fucking exhausting for trans people to have their lives debated like it’s a fucking huge deal for us live alongside them, just to appease a small amount of loudmouth bellends.

4. This kind of thing implies trans men should be using the women’s, but the reality for them and trans women is setting up things so they’re at risk of getting violently ejected from whatever toilets they use and framed as predators for using them is many simply won’t leave the house, something practically the goal of the right and an acceptable outcome for many in labour these days.

   Heck remember a few years ago when we all pretended this was about violent cis men, and now they’re advocating bans on trans women with grcs, certificates that would be entirely impossible for anyone to get on any kind of impulse (given it takes years and years) and confer no benefit to anyone trying to use them to get in anywhere (they’re not a form of id for God sake). It just fucks over trans people in organizational settings.

5. Was he asked about lavatories, like the headline says, or was he asked “Do biological males with gender recognition certificates have the right to enter women-only spaces?” like the article says? Massive bait and switch here by the Telegraph, toilets are not women-only spaces. Even JK herself is probably more concerned with spaces for eg domestic abuse survivors than toilets.

   Keir is generally shit on this stuff but this article is stirring up even more controversy on this than there is. And as usual it’s trans women who are the butt of it.

6. The whole trans debate is pretty tiresome. For less than 1 percent of the population it sure does cause a huge shitstorm. I’d like to move past it honestly and just live and let live.

7. Give him a week he’ll change his mind again once he’s in.

8. Just to nail this down, for the record, trans women are allowed to use the woman’s bogs and there is case law and statutory guidance to back that up.

   Anyone assrting otherwise is either ignorant or a liar.

9. In all seriousness how often are people running into trans people in the lavatory?

   I don’t even notice what other people look or seem like unless we cross eyes while leaving or entering.

10. Two days away from the election and these sex perverts still think questions about toilets is the best thing they can be asking him. 

11. For ducks sake Keir, don’t get dragged into this Alt-right bullshit that no one cares about. Stick to the things that actually matter to the country.

12. Starmer strikes me as the sort of bloke who’d think nothing of shoving a disabled person in a wheelchair out of the way if they were in his way.

    As a trans woman I’m sick and tired of politicians talking about people like me as if we’re subhuman or fake.

    Try substituting ‘trans women’ for ‘black women’ to get my point. Now tell me this isn’t othering.

13. Female only spaces exist and should continue to exist.

    Inclusive spaces should also exist.

14. So do Trans men have to use the women’s toilets then? All someone would need to do is say I am a trans man and by law I have to use the women’s bathroom. Isn’t that just the same thinking to people saying they are a trans woman?

15. Trans people make up 0.5% of the population. Stopping trans women from using the ladies is more likely to hurt cis women who don’t conform to what people consider feminine.

    I doubt they’d want trans men in the ladies and trans women probably won’t feel safe going into the gents so they may not pee when they’re out and about.

16. This culture war is so fucking boring. Just let the tiny amount of trans people in society get on with their lives and focus on more pressing matters.

17. I really don’t understand the universal fascination with other people’s particular arrangement of genitalia. The only time it ever fucking matters is when you’re.. well.. fucking.

    I also think time could be better spent on questions that don’t involve who is or is not allowed to use a fucking toilet.

    For fucks sake.

18. Didn’t it come out that the trans debate is the least thing people are bothered about right now? Also, no one’s *really* bothered apart from the loud bigot minority. If you’ve ever spoken to a trans person you’ll be impressed to know that they’re just like us.

19. I don’t think 99% of non trans people would ever have to deal with the situation of meeting someone trans in the lavatory, let alone would care! Just let people use the facilities they’re comfortable with.

20. I don’t care. I don’t want to know about this. Let people live their lives. This is not a major issue for our country at this point in time.

    I do want to know why Starmer won’t divulge who his financial backers are. But I guess the telegraph can’t write about that without also undermining their own agents.

    I am developing a seething hatred for our media and politicians. I really don’t trust any of them. You scratch behind the surface and they’re always receiving money from dodgy sources or cutting deals that they shouldn’t be.

    I am sick and tired of the philosophy of “be evil but present yourself as good “. It doesn’t work. Without accountability and honesty, life becomes miserable for all but the richest.

21. Male violence is the real issue and everyone is skirting around it by vilifying trans women.

    Women aren’t afraid of what trans women might do to them in bathrooms, they’re afraid of what men might do if they’re given the opportunity and access. Likewise, trans men aren’t safe from other men.

    Trans women are women and they belong in women only spaces. Trans women are not the problem. Violence against women, perpetrated by men, is the problem.

22. we should probably move to having unisex toilets everywhere. it’s getting too complicated otherwise.

23. Can’t remember ever showing ID at a toilet. Literally pointless discussing this.

    Even if you’re the most anti-trans person on the planet you must appreciate that if a cis-woman wanted to use a male toilet, nobody would stop her and she wouldn’t be breaking any laws (and most likely nobody would care.) so why are we still discussing this? Which is literally no different.

24. When is the UK going to get over this perverse obsession over the private lives (and actual privates) of individuals?

    No one really cares, it’s a distraction from actual policies and concerns, but no – we’re more interested in a minority, of which a huge majority of that minority are private, law abiding individuals who just want to live peaceful, happy lives like the rest of us.

    If we have to talk about this topic, maybe it should be in the context of convicting politicians for wasting time and resources scapegoating and politically attacking minorities for a non-issue and actually put some effort into doing their jobs focusing on more important things that affect the majority of people in this country and not some loud mouthed bigots with too much time on their hands and too little going on in their skulls.

    Starmer falling into this trap is ridiculous.