Putin resorting to spy war on Europe as Ukraine invasion falters | Tom Ball

Putin resorting to spy war on Europe as Ukraine invasion falters | Tom Ball

particularly in the Baltic states there have been multiple instances where Russian spies have been or people who believe to be Russian spies have been caught trying to gain access to to military areas so it’s clear that they are not only trying to gain an advantage by weakening the um political systems of NATO members but also trying to get ahead of the the curve by having a greater understanding of their military capabilities Jeremy Griffin in for Hugo riffkin on times radio it’s just coming up to 1220 now check out the times today for fascinating long read on Russian spies and Hitman deployed across Europe by Russia’s three resurgent intelligence agencies we’re talking state sponsored murder cyber attacks and political destabilization with an activity level comparable to the height of the Cold War Tom B is one of the writers of that piece and he told me that assessments of Russia’s Security Services had changed since the country’s fullscale invasion of Ukraine in 2022 in the first few months of the war it was it was considered that the Russian Security Services had massively failed in essentially preparing the ground for the invasion of Ukraine and it was clear that Putin was very angry with his Security Services who are you know he’s a former FSB director himself so it’s one of the areas of state that he takes a very great interest in compounding that is the fact that um following the invasion of Ukraine a lot of European nations expelled a number of diplomats or you know diplomats in inversed commers estimated to be around 600 of those people who were expelled from European capitals so the picture in 2022 was that a people thought that Russia Security Services were essentially a paper tiger and that is not the kind of fearsome Beast um of the KGB or or the Checker before it but was actually a much reduced force and then B it was felt that what powers they did have have been much reduced two years on both of those things now seem to be wrong headers the FSB over the last two years sorry the FSB and the guu and the svr which the three the three agencies have been seemingly going into overdrive with uh operations being foiled on a near near weekly basis now across the entirety of Europe Yeah you mentioned the three agencies what are the differences between those three Russian spy agencies uh the FSB which is the successor to the KGB is the internal security agency so the equivalent of of MI5 in this country but it also has a remit overseeing countries of the former Soviet Union and there’s the guu which is military intelligence so we’re kind of crossover between I guess the SAS and MI6 and list is May room remember the guu with regard to Salsbury yeah exactly um it was a unit within the guu which is thought to have carried out that attack and then um the third is called the svr which is their foreign intelligence branch that would be a kind of straight equivalent of MI6 Russia has long been accused of state sponsored murder including Alexander lineno of course and the Salsbury poisonings that we just mentioned is President Putin directly involved in planning and sanctioning that sort of activity I think probably not planning but given how much we know about his interest within the security services and his long-standing connections to them I think it’s always certain that he would be sanctioning them and and what sort of activity other than that are these agencies getting up to I mean having reg your pece they’re really into Political destabilization aren’t they yeah and that’s kind of um as I write in the piece it’s in the very kind of DNA of these security agencies or the DNA of Russian foreign policy more broadly because you know dating back to the early Soviet Union when the the bolik government was was essentially ushered in by a small group of people who were causing political destabilization That Was Then followed up by attempts to export the Revolution by similar means so it’s something that the Russian state has been engaged in for over a hundred years now and yes as you said political decivilization is the kind of the end goal and so that may be achieved by assassinations or by sabotage or by as we see increasingly by um cyber means but the end result essentially is to try and divide populations promote politicians and groups within those within foreign countries that are sympathetic towards Kremlin and to destabilize those groups which are U not so sympathetic how do you feel the activity levels compared to the Cold War as we would know it it’s thought that the level of Espionage and attempts at political destabilization and operations in foreign especially European countries is is at the same level as it was during the cold M if not greater wow I’m interested in the in the rail politic aspect of your story too you explain in Brussels uh the very nerve center of the European Union sits the permanent mission of the Russian Federation to the European Union and it’s basically run by a spy or believed to be run by a spy and a couple of blocks away you write um about the roof of the Russian Embassy in Brussels which bristles as you describe it with satellite communication equipment Brussels of course hosts NATO as well as the EU what possible Advantage is there to Europe’s leaders of tacitly permitting Russian Espionage at the heart of the continent uh well first let’s just say that that was written by Bruno bfield my excellent Brussels correspondent at the times I wouldn’t want to take credit for that but yeah as you say there is a real politic element to this and the man that you refer to is the charge of Affair in the Russian Embassy there and as I said earlier there were 600 Russian diplomats who expelled but this man wasn’t because of the fact the EU would have to do so and they weren’t willing to do that because they feared that their own ambassadors in Moscow would then be expelled in in retribution so there’s a certain level of horse trading that goes on in diplomatic circles and broadly speaking Nations tend to be aware of the people within foreign embassies and their country who are spies and and sometimes it pays to know you know to have that situation whereby you have know nural rather than unknown nals you there’s also cases where you have those who who can’t be expelled so as we see diplomats being expelled we now have Russians who believe to be Russian agents moving into Europe through organizations such as UNESCO and other kind of non overtly diplomatic agencies but those which there is are quotes to be filled and Russia’s security agencies are filling those with with their agents and the West knows about it so is that sort of the acceptable side of spycraft if you like yeah that’s always been the way that you there’s a kind of gentleman’s code in a way that you have an understanding of who’s operating and doing what and you kind of those are the acceptable rules of the game but that’s kind of been turned on its head because of the war and because of those expulsions but I was going to ask actually how how much of this escalation do you think is directly related to the Ukraine conflict um I I think it’s directly responsible for it Russia now feels that it’s if not necessarily a hot War then certainly a warm war with the west and one analyst said to me that that the reason they doing this is because they do believe they’re in direct conflict with um the west and this is their spy agencies being on a on a war footing I think you saying the piece you think Russia is casting around for weaknesses that it could exploit in the future or in future Wars yeah I mean there are particularly in the Baltic states there have been multiple instances where Russian spies have been or people who beli to be Russian spies have been caught trying to gain access to to military areas so it’s clear that they are not only trying to gain an advantage by weakening the um political systems of NATO members but also trying to get ahead of the the curve by having a greater understanding of their military capabilities and the Very fact there’s an it’s an important election year around the world France obviously United States we had the presidential debate on Thursday evening the election about to take place here on Thursday have you seen or is there any evidence of Russian attempts to influence and interfere those processes so far yeah um I mean in France there was an examp a Very ostentatious example when three men put um coffins draped in French Flags uh in the center of Paris and this was a couple of weeks after mcon had um tried to talk up the idea of of potentially sending French troops to to Ukraine and um these three coffins had um French soldiers in Ukraine written on them so it’s a clear kind of attempt to um undermine macon’s message and there have been other instances as well I mean that the sort of thing that appears to be grin’s favorite tactic at the moment is getting so-called pranksters to phone up um leading politicians around Europe and and um convincing that they’re actually talking to another politician from another country and then that’s happened with Maloney yeah the Italian Prime Minister happened with Malone she thought that she was talking to some diplomats from from Africa happened with um Lord Cameron as well recently too and um the crime would deny obviously that that that had anything to do with them but how did these pranksters get hold of these numbers how would they you know the logistics involved in it clearly indicates that there was some intelligence agency that was that was helping them that’s Tom ball and that long read about the strength of Russia’s intelligence agencies is in today’s Times get it in the paper or with a digital description at the times.com did I say description subscription

“There have been multiple instances where Russian spies… have been caught trying to gain access to military areas.”

In The Times’s article “Killing, coups and chaos: inside Putin’s secret spy war on Europe”, investigative reporters reveal Moscow’s escalating operations across the continent. Tom Ball gives #TimesRadio the inside scoop.

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