And yes, there’s a reason this has to be a wayback machine link.
“Stop the War! Unless it’s war against the J..
sorry, ‘Zionists'”
maybe some of us dont want a war which just makes certain people rich
He’s not wrong. They’re basically the Stop the West Coalition at this point.
These idiots seriously believe that the best way to stop Russia invading Ukraine is to politely ask them to stop.
As someone who isn’t keen on World War Three this just gives me another reason not to vote Labour in future.
How does mischaracterising like this help? Stop the war may indeed be idiots, but Stop the War is not the same as supporting the other side, that’s classic “if you’re not with us you are against us” childishness.
When it comes to maintaining pax europaea, pacifism can be far more dangerous than a show and willingness to use force.
Whilst Corbyn claims that he is not a pacifist and that war can be justified in select circumstaces, he has always been a longtime critic of NATO. Certainly his conscience has been less sensitive when it comes to opposing the use of force by anti-Western regimes or by various non-state actors. Do not forget he half-justified Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2014-15, saying that the roots of the conflict lay in “belligerence” from the West and that Vladimir Putin was “not unprovoked”. The essence of Corbynism is the rejection of one of the basic tenets of British foreign policy: that you side with the West, rather than its enemies. He is a pacifist of ideological convenience rather than principle.
The classic objection to pacifism is that it makes conflict more likely, because bullies conclude that they can act unpunished. This is even more true of Corbyn’s quasi-pacifism. It insists on erecting endless obstacles to the West’s use of force, from the seemingly reasonable (such as a parliamentary debate before the use of force), to the deliberately impossible, such as international consensus. At the same time, it makes endless excuses for the use of force by the West’s enemies.
The far-left have been caught out by this blindspot a few times.
Yes, the UK’s foreign policy is often aggressive, unethical and entirely driven by the UK’s interests rather than what’s right. That doesn’t mean the UK’s antagonists are the good guys.
Elements of the far-left ended up siding with Serb ultranationalists during the breakup of Yugoslavia, because they had them figured as sort of successor to Tito’s Yugoslavia.
Starmer is a dingus for paying any heed to the Stop The War Coalition. Everybody else already knows they are kooks. Starmer gains nothing by slandering a bunch of pacifists, except to end up looking like he’s weirdly supportive of a possible war between nuclear powers.
​
That post 9/11 for us or against us crap isn’t going to fly any more and worse, he ends up looking incredible petty when representatives of the government are meeting with Russians and NATO leaders, and he’s busy booing a small gang of hippies. There are levels to this.
​
The smart play is to focus on opposing the government, because that’s his job, and because the government are fucking morons who need to be carefully scrutinised and criticised every step of the way during this incredibly dangerous process that they are monumentally unfit to undertake on their own.
Doesn’t really matter anyway. War seems inevitable at this point. Either appease Russia and agree to their demands or pay the price in blood.
Let’s just hope that it’s a tragic miscalculation on Putin’s part. If Russia do invade, hopefully they’ll learn that starting an unprovoked conflict will not be as simple as they think it will be. Think Western powers in Iraq kind of quagmire as opposed to a Gulf War 1 type of cakewalk.
Would prefer no war at all to a war obviously, but that’s not looking likely unfortunately.
Ukraine are not in Nato and also have already been invaded in 2014. Nato stood by and done fuck all then so why even mention Nato here. Smearing people who are against war as traitors is not a great way to get people to vote for you.
You might as well just not vote in England for all the difference it makes, the Labour and Tory party are the same.
Stop The War should be the default position, calling them enemies is so obviously a bad idea and it stinks of the war hungry views that eventually brought Blair/Brown down and led to 200+k civilian deaths that could have been avoided.
Coalition clearly not aligned with any one state but generally against war accused of being on the side of the other guys by warmongers.
Typical actions of the disingenuous. Everyone not with them is apparently with their enemy regardless of their actual position. The gall of Keir to have an issue with Boris’ Savile statements then come out with the same shit against Corbyn. Is it so hard for anyone to have consistent values?
Try being isolationist and fixing your own economy. Risking another war in this Brexit pandemic economy is silly. Liberals do love war though. Look at Germany’s stance and wonder why they are the largest economy in Europe. They value their trade with Russian oil more than the deaths of hundreds of thousands to give Ukraine democracy. The UK loves world policing.
> Starmer said: “Nobody wants war. At first glance some on the left may be sympathetic to those siren voices who condemn Nato. But to condemn Nato is to condemn the guarantee of democracy and security it brings and which our allies in eastern and central Europe are relying on as the sabre-rattling from Moscow grows ever louder.”
Russia shouldn’t be invading other countries. NATO shouldn’t be militarising right up to Russia’s borders.
America got annoyed and nearly started WW3 when the Soviet Union was going to put missiles in Cuba. I can totally understand Russia having the same opinion when America plus us European poodles are doing the same at Russia’s borders.
Whilst I’m inevitably collecting downvotes I might as well go on and add… in the same way there are ‘British’ people in the Falklands and Gibraltar that want to remain part of the UK, it was inevitable that there would be Russian dominant areas in regions after the fall of the USSR that want to be Russian. It was probably naive to think that everything would be wrapped up neatly in 1991. It would be nice if it could have been resolved without invasions, undercover soldiers, coloured revolutions etc
NATO should have been wound down and post Russia embraced and brought into the fold when the USSR collapsed. Sometimes it feels like its purpose today is to sell weapons, have conferences and appeal to flag wankers.
Hes right.
Stop the war are a disgrace, they dont care about stopping it but that it is all in favour of Russia. Blame the west for anything and everything, even when Russia invaded Crimea…Corbyn was chair of stop the war then.
How Corbyn for one minute can pretend that he is a progressive democrat, believing in freedom and equality, resisting oppression and warmongering-and speaking for the common people -yet be such a brown-nosed supporter of the kleptocratic despot Putin, utterly beggars belief.
If only STWC had listened to Labour in the past now we wouldn’t have ISIS. Must be some very red faces with short memories at the moment.
Nobody wants war. Threads is like the “happy” ending of how that plays out with todays tech.
You are literally better off moving towards the fallout than trying to hide/survive it
But where were these vocal groups when the Eastern Ukraine situation started in 2014? Better yet certain events before it (Georgia) I mean that was the time to be saying/doing something.
coincidentally the people who run stop the war also run Julian Assange’s campaign
It’s pretty bad imho. It pushes this as a right Vs wrong, us Vs them, even commies Vs democracy. It isn’t, it’s complex and nuisanced and we are partly responsible for this.
I am a fan of Keir (or at least a fan of boring electability and centrism). But this is a bit concerning. At best it’s politics, a soft spot to shoot Corbyn and a good way to appeal to soft Tories. But I hope he doesn’t actually believe this.
And NATO since 1991 has been a totally different alliance to before then. Aggressive, desperate for an enemy, sometimes actively harming some member interests.
Honstely im liking Starmer more and more these days.
His stop your bullshit mindset is very refreshing I don’t agree with everything he says but at least he compantant
I guess I don’t understand why NATO are so pushy about putting troops into the old Soviet satellite states. Why poke the bear and all that.
Not pro-anyone but just curious. Anyone explain why?
*BuT wHy WeReN’t PeOpLe SmArT eNoUgH tO vOtE CoRbYn?*
Funny how often you see ‘mainstream media brainwashed idiots’ or ‘people were stupid for not getting Corbyn is brilliant and liking him’ – when he consistently backs ridiculous things like this and routinely panders to Russia.
26 comments
They certainly give off that impression. Imagine siding with Russia over your own country.
Well, that’s not gonna calm Labour down, but goddamn, more people need to push back on this faux-anti-imperialist shite.
Tbf Russia/Ukraine isn’t even their worst take
http://web.archive.org/web/20140722040605/http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/time-to-go-to-war-with-israel-as-the-only-path-to-peace-in-the-middle-east#.U83jOlOnw0E
And yes, there’s a reason this has to be a wayback machine link.
“Stop the War! Unless it’s war against the J..
sorry, ‘Zionists'”
maybe some of us dont want a war which just makes certain people rich
He’s not wrong. They’re basically the Stop the West Coalition at this point.
These idiots seriously believe that the best way to stop Russia invading Ukraine is to politely ask them to stop.
As someone who isn’t keen on World War Three this just gives me another reason not to vote Labour in future.
How does mischaracterising like this help? Stop the war may indeed be idiots, but Stop the War is not the same as supporting the other side, that’s classic “if you’re not with us you are against us” childishness.
When it comes to maintaining pax europaea, pacifism can be far more dangerous than a show and willingness to use force.
Whilst Corbyn claims that he is not a pacifist and that war can be justified in select circumstaces, he has always been a longtime critic of NATO. Certainly his conscience has been less sensitive when it comes to opposing the use of force by anti-Western regimes or by various non-state actors. Do not forget he half-justified Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2014-15, saying that the roots of the conflict lay in “belligerence” from the West and that Vladimir Putin was “not unprovoked”. The essence of Corbynism is the rejection of one of the basic tenets of British foreign policy: that you side with the West, rather than its enemies. He is a pacifist of ideological convenience rather than principle.
The classic objection to pacifism is that it makes conflict more likely, because bullies conclude that they can act unpunished. This is even more true of Corbyn’s quasi-pacifism. It insists on erecting endless obstacles to the West’s use of force, from the seemingly reasonable (such as a parliamentary debate before the use of force), to the deliberately impossible, such as international consensus. At the same time, it makes endless excuses for the use of force by the West’s enemies.
The far-left have been caught out by this blindspot a few times.
Yes, the UK’s foreign policy is often aggressive, unethical and entirely driven by the UK’s interests rather than what’s right. That doesn’t mean the UK’s antagonists are the good guys.
Elements of the far-left ended up siding with Serb ultranationalists during the breakup of Yugoslavia, because they had them figured as sort of successor to Tito’s Yugoslavia.
Starmer is a dingus for paying any heed to the Stop The War Coalition. Everybody else already knows they are kooks. Starmer gains nothing by slandering a bunch of pacifists, except to end up looking like he’s weirdly supportive of a possible war between nuclear powers.
​
That post 9/11 for us or against us crap isn’t going to fly any more and worse, he ends up looking incredible petty when representatives of the government are meeting with Russians and NATO leaders, and he’s busy booing a small gang of hippies. There are levels to this.
​
The smart play is to focus on opposing the government, because that’s his job, and because the government are fucking morons who need to be carefully scrutinised and criticised every step of the way during this incredibly dangerous process that they are monumentally unfit to undertake on their own.
Doesn’t really matter anyway. War seems inevitable at this point. Either appease Russia and agree to their demands or pay the price in blood.
Let’s just hope that it’s a tragic miscalculation on Putin’s part. If Russia do invade, hopefully they’ll learn that starting an unprovoked conflict will not be as simple as they think it will be. Think Western powers in Iraq kind of quagmire as opposed to a Gulf War 1 type of cakewalk.
Would prefer no war at all to a war obviously, but that’s not looking likely unfortunately.
Ukraine are not in Nato and also have already been invaded in 2014. Nato stood by and done fuck all then so why even mention Nato here. Smearing people who are against war as traitors is not a great way to get people to vote for you.
You might as well just not vote in England for all the difference it makes, the Labour and Tory party are the same.
Stop The War should be the default position, calling them enemies is so obviously a bad idea and it stinks of the war hungry views that eventually brought Blair/Brown down and led to 200+k civilian deaths that could have been avoided.
Coalition clearly not aligned with any one state but generally against war accused of being on the side of the other guys by warmongers.
Typical actions of the disingenuous. Everyone not with them is apparently with their enemy regardless of their actual position. The gall of Keir to have an issue with Boris’ Savile statements then come out with the same shit against Corbyn. Is it so hard for anyone to have consistent values?
Try being isolationist and fixing your own economy. Risking another war in this Brexit pandemic economy is silly. Liberals do love war though. Look at Germany’s stance and wonder why they are the largest economy in Europe. They value their trade with Russian oil more than the deaths of hundreds of thousands to give Ukraine democracy. The UK loves world policing.
> Starmer said: “Nobody wants war. At first glance some on the left may be sympathetic to those siren voices who condemn Nato. But to condemn Nato is to condemn the guarantee of democracy and security it brings and which our allies in eastern and central Europe are relying on as the sabre-rattling from Moscow grows ever louder.”
Amen.
*tl;dr – I really recommend this Guardian opinion piece [“I’m a conflict mediator. This is a way out of the Ukraine crisis – Gabrielle Rifkind”](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/09/conflict-mediator-ukraine-vladimir-putin)*
Russia shouldn’t be invading other countries. NATO shouldn’t be militarising right up to Russia’s borders.
America got annoyed and nearly started WW3 when the Soviet Union was going to put missiles in Cuba. I can totally understand Russia having the same opinion when America plus us European poodles are doing the same at Russia’s borders.
Whilst I’m inevitably collecting downvotes I might as well go on and add… in the same way there are ‘British’ people in the Falklands and Gibraltar that want to remain part of the UK, it was inevitable that there would be Russian dominant areas in regions after the fall of the USSR that want to be Russian. It was probably naive to think that everything would be wrapped up neatly in 1991. It would be nice if it could have been resolved without invasions, undercover soldiers, coloured revolutions etc
NATO should have been wound down and post Russia embraced and brought into the fold when the USSR collapsed. Sometimes it feels like its purpose today is to sell weapons, have conferences and appeal to flag wankers.
Hes right.
Stop the war are a disgrace, they dont care about stopping it but that it is all in favour of Russia. Blame the west for anything and everything, even when Russia invaded Crimea…Corbyn was chair of stop the war then.
How Corbyn for one minute can pretend that he is a progressive democrat, believing in freedom and equality, resisting oppression and warmongering-and speaking for the common people -yet be such a brown-nosed supporter of the kleptocratic despot Putin, utterly beggars belief.
If only STWC had listened to Labour in the past now we wouldn’t have ISIS. Must be some very red faces with short memories at the moment.
Nobody wants war. Threads is like the “happy” ending of how that plays out with todays tech.
You are literally better off moving towards the fallout than trying to hide/survive it
But where were these vocal groups when the Eastern Ukraine situation started in 2014? Better yet certain events before it (Georgia) I mean that was the time to be saying/doing something.
coincidentally the people who run stop the war also run Julian Assange’s campaign
Keir’s actual article is here:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/10/labour-nato-british-left-ukraine-keir-starmer
It’s pretty bad imho. It pushes this as a right Vs wrong, us Vs them, even commies Vs democracy. It isn’t, it’s complex and nuisanced and we are partly responsible for this.
I am a fan of Keir (or at least a fan of boring electability and centrism). But this is a bit concerning. At best it’s politics, a soft spot to shoot Corbyn and a good way to appeal to soft Tories. But I hope he doesn’t actually believe this.
And NATO since 1991 has been a totally different alliance to before then. Aggressive, desperate for an enemy, sometimes actively harming some member interests.
Honstely im liking Starmer more and more these days.
His stop your bullshit mindset is very refreshing I don’t agree with everything he says but at least he compantant
I guess I don’t understand why NATO are so pushy about putting troops into the old Soviet satellite states. Why poke the bear and all that.
Not pro-anyone but just curious. Anyone explain why?
*BuT wHy WeReN’t PeOpLe SmArT eNoUgH tO vOtE CoRbYn?*
Funny how often you see ‘mainstream media brainwashed idiots’ or ‘people were stupid for not getting Corbyn is brilliant and liking him’ – when he consistently backs ridiculous things like this and routinely panders to Russia.