Key points for those who can’t be bothered to click:
The number of babies born in England and Wales is the lowest since the 1970s.
The fertility rate is the lowest on record at 1.44. Scotland’s is even lower at 1.3.
Question: So what’s causing the fall-off in fertility?
Answer: There’s the high cost of bringing up children, the pressure to stay in work and the challenge of finding the right partner.
Plus evidence that more and more young adults don’t plan on having any children at all.
So young(ish) people of the UK, why are you not having kids?
I can afford them. Got a great paying job. A house etc.
Kids are shit bags by default. It’s in their nature.
I’d rather have a cat. At least with a cat I won’t spend 20 years raising it for it to turn into a roadman… Or whatever the next iteration of degenerates are called.
The world’s a lot more complex now and bringing lives into this collective steaming bag of virtue signalling shit, feels like a moral dilemma.
It’s an interesting article, more interesting that the headline they went with is about “dating is fruitless”, when the other 3 people that they cover are a better snapshot of the current social landscape I feel rather than the 1 person who hasn’t found a match at 39.
They don’t even give reason as to why her dating life hasn’t gone as she planned or details into it. This is more of a personal takeaway from me but if you haven’t found a match by 39, it’s probably more on you than anything else, OR you’re just that unlucky statistic that fate threw all the bad opportunities at, either way it shouldn’t be the headline story for this reality of this article (and the newspaper knows that, hence why it’s the most comment-evoking response)
Zero interest … nothing to do with cost.
It just looks dreadful; majority of free time gone and obviously a lot less disposable income.
Those who say it is driven by women not being rich enough, well the global trend over the last 200+ years is the complete opposite: as women get wealthier and better educated, the fewer babies they have.
The fertility rate in 19th century Europe (and in earlier centuries) was _much_ higher yet most women lived in unimaginable levels of poverty and hardship; their economic conditions were infinitely worse. And today in Western European countries the groups who tend to have the largest families are first gen migrants, who are often the poorest and with the worst housing situation.
It’s a cultural thing, highly educated women in their 20s given the choice tend to delay having babies and focus on their jobs instead. But the 20s are the most fertile period, so delaying makes it very difficult for themselves by starting in their 30s. We have lost all the societal, cultural and religious pressure to have babies and the only groups who now have surplus birth rates are the highly religious and global poor who _for now_ have **not** lost those cultural norms and pressure.
Yet again the terms fertility and birthrate being used interchangeably and thus incorrectly.
Fertility is the *ability* to reproduce.
Birthrate (natality) is the actual rate of babies being born.
Both fertility and birthrate are decreasing, meaning the ability to reproduce is dropping AND the desire to reproduce is also dropping.
Mainly three reasons – cost childcare is extortionate, cost of living is too high and wages aren’t matching the high cost of living that’s going up constantly.
Know someone that’s paying almost a grand on childcare. Both parents work but still struggling to keep up.
Not saying people shouldn’t be open about wanting kids, but I would think it’s too late to be dating with the purpose of reproduction, if you don’t also have many years to get to know the person before having children with them. If you want to spread your genes, you can donate them to people who are ready. Otherwise, plan for adoption.
I feel like for the first child you decide to have (or not have) there are different factors at play compared to your second.
Your first is more about desire, do you want a child or don’t you? Yes there are costs but if you really want a child, people make it work.
A lot of the stuff people are mentioning like childcare costs, career, maternity care etc. are more issues we considered when deciding whether to try for our second child or not.
I knew we could afford a first child, I didn’t consider any of the other stuff like maternity care and it’s affect on my career. We did decide to have a second child but I am much more conscious about how much it’s setting me back in my job seeing it first hand after my first maternity leave and the mortality of the situation is forefront in my mind due to issues I had after the first birth. I wanted it enough but I can appreciate why people are put off for sure.
Political policy only perpetuates politics and isn’t actually what’s right for society. Losing the connection between multiple generations of families doesn’t help either. We have destroyed the way we evolved to live and help each other out in an actually community. Massive change will happen, but only when everything has collapsed to force it.
I am childfree by choice rather than necessity. I don’t want children, and I think lots of people feel this way.
It isn’t a financial decision. I simply have no interest in it, and fortunately, my partner feels the same.
Being an uncle and having the ability to choose how much time I spend with them is great. You can be as involved as you want, and I find I’m rarely interested.
M35. Never wanted kids or marriage. I must have been about 10-12 when I realised. The thought is just reeeally not for me.
NB: I am also very much in a position where I could afford to have one and it’d be fine. I just hear the sound of a crying baby and put headphones in.
Me and my wife are 41.
We’ve been together 23 years. We had a discussion long ago that we didn’t want kids for the very simple reason that we didn’t want to raise kids in this shithole of a world and we wanted to enjoy life just the 2 of us.
Cost was never really a factor, they’d be in their 20s by now if they had ever existed.
I don’t spend time around women like I did when I was in University or working in retail / hospitality.
I am not on dating apps and I’m not the sort of person to approach random people in the street.
dating doesn’t even exist for me and I’m about to enter my 30s lol
I don’t have my own place there is literally very little space for me to exist comfortably and strike up a conversation with a woman who is also existing comfortably.
She doesn’t say why it’s fruitless. Are the men not good enough for her? Has she had too many bad experiences? Does she need to change her approach or expectations? The way many girls seem to approach dating is simply horrific, and they seem to walk around with a long shopping list of requirements. Are they really that good themselves? She’s hardly a super catch from what I can see.
Another problem stemming from high housing costs. If housing costs were lower, through good quality state funded social housing being readily available, lots of modern issues would be solved
Having been involved in a business dealing with bridal stuff and seeing so many nasty divorces , put me off marriage for life
A lot of misogynistic comments in here. Can’t say I’m shocked from this sub.
Britain has gone to shit in the last 30 years. Its no surprise people aren’t having kids
I think the thing that people really miss is that it’s not just that people can’t afford to have children it’s that people are time poor.
Obviously people 200 years ago had less resources but a couple did have more time.
It’s hardly a suprise that couples can’t have children when they jointly need to work around 80 hours a week.
Raise minimum wage so that a 60hr week is enough and I’m certain you’d see the birth rate rise.
Bare in mind this isn’t just an impact that means more people having sex but also an impact in that close family (parents, aunts, uncles and sometimes even grandparents) have time to spend helping raise children which takes the burden off a chunk.
As a woman, a single woman too, it’s just not feasible. If I were to have a child I’d likely have to do it alone and that would involve living off benefits as I wouldn’t be able to work my current job at the same time.
I’m sorry but the system hasn’t adapted to changing living standards and expectations of women. You either want us to make babies or be workers, you can’t do both no matter how much people lie to themselves about it.
We have got to stop being such a low-paid, high-cost country.
When two people who together earn twice the average salary in South-East England still can’t buy a house and are not having children because of that, economy and society is broken.
Build. More. Houses.
(and the other things, like maternity pay same as income before giving birth, etc)
Highly educated professional with own home. Just failing to meet someone who can be an equal partner in my life. I’m not settling for someone I don’t like living with and as yet haven’t succeeded in finding that person.
I feel sorry for the woman who froze her eggs at 39. She probably thinks she has an insurance policy for a future family. When in fact at her age most of those eggs are abnormal, and anyway eggs don’t freeze/thaw very well. She should have made embryos she could test. Some clinic was too quick to take her money without being honest about the chances and risks.
We’re 33 and 31. Actively trying for a baby. Don’t own our own house yet, are early-stages in building a career (both of us will probably go back to education at some point), have just moved back here (for me, spouse is moving here for first time) from Canada to the UK.
On paper it looks like we shouldn’t even be thinking about a child. But it’s all we want. We figure there’s never a “perfect” time to have a baby and you just have to get on with it. We trust all will be fine. But we’re lucky to be in a stable relationship of 11years+, engaged, and now we’re back here we at least have the support network of one of our family an hour away (the other is a 10 hour flight).
The only stumbling blocks we are really facing is the piss poor maternity/paternity pay and the NHS. The former isn’t anywhere near enough to cover half our income being gone, I worry about the time I’ll sacrifice with my newborn in order to keep working, and the NHS has been dogshit in helping us figure out my spouse’s potential health issues that are contributing to the reason we’re not expecting one yet.
I think it’s more nuanced than finances.
Why have kids when this nation and government fosters a system that makes it too expensive to do so?
The points brought up here are almost all valid, and I generally understand them but one.
It has, by any reasonable metric, never been *easier* to find the right partner. I’m sorry, but meeting people was objectively harder 30 years ago.
My personal theory is that it’s because those fucking apps fried our brains, and now we all immediately look to replacing our partner at the first sign of imperfection or having to work for it.
This is the one thing where I think “no, things haven’t gotten harder, we’re all just expecting more.”
* Nobody can afford a house
* Cost of living is obscene
* Both parents need to work
* Childcare is also expensive
* All Public Services are getting slammed
* Patriotism and belief in ones own country is the lowest its ever been.
* TikTok brain people think they can get this celebrity façade of a lifestyle people put online and will ruin a perfectly good relationship thinking the grass is always greener.
* Online dating causes a very skewed rate of matches in people. Despite how sexually positive society is now, males being virgins is the highest its ever been in recorded history. Why would women sleep with 5s when the 10s online will have sex with them? This wouldn’t be too big an issue if they didn’t for some reason believe these same men would like to settle down with these average women instead of continuing to have sex with other more preferable women. (This is a weird one)
* Divorce is also far more common. People abandon ship instead of working through tough times together. (Not actual abuse, but just feeling bored or something menial. Nobody is expecting you to live in a loveless boring marriage. But more often than not, it wont be if you actually communicate with your partner)
* Britain’s bureaucratic red tape hells cape wont allow any construction of any new jobs. Easier and cheaper to just create jobs abroad. 10 years to complete a simple staircase ffs(this is a real thing). Let alone actual beneficial infrastructure.
And then every single government we have, has no backbone and only wants to be seen as virtuous. Sending money off into the abyss for them to pocket and consistently allowing ILLEGAL immigration. People who are benefiting from these public services while the majority will never pay taxes in any capacity. Illegals are not the immigrants any country wants. Not even their own.
Honestly. The audacity to complain about the struggles of the NHS while actively causing its decline. There is literally no end to illegal immigration. It is slowly bleeding the country. This isn’t the clean positive immigration previous studies have shown. These people aren’t Asylum Seekers and France isn’t a war torn country.
What bothers me is how easy this is to see. So easy in fact, that its safe to assume the government is actually far-right. Its actively causing such radicalisation. You think people put in jail for 12 months because of mean racist tweet are going to suddenly change their ways? Of course not. You think these riots and two-tier policing are a new thing? Its been slowly increasing for around two decades now. Brexit was a cry for help, and still nothing changed lol.
Something is going to give.
When you can barely afford to look after yourself, how will you be able to look after an expensive little human too?
Lose all my free time, struggle financially, be constantly stressed about keeping a little human alive, no thanks
Overall, dating apps hinder rather than help people get into relationships, and this Elie is a prime example of that.
We can all rightly point out issues like cost of living, housing and childcare costs, but really a lot of us struggle to even get past the first hurdle.
No positive Exampels plus no Community. Every mother i know is either a Single parent or a Full-Time Job plus 50s Maid. We have new values for Society but the Transformation is Not working. Plus i See a lot of Family 2.0 Daddys which is very discouraging…
I’m female so having a child will destroy my body and my career.
We can’t afford full-time childcare so I’d have to go part time (husband works away a lot). Forget me ever getting to whatever level I once hoped to achieve through work.
The main reason for me though:
Healthcare for women in the UK is abysmal. Having babies is highly destructive on a woman’s body. I’d have no choice but to suffer for it for the rest of my life. My mother had to have one of those metal gauze things added to her pelvic floor, and we’ve probably all seen the news articles about what happened to women who had that surgery.
Fuck that. If my husband could have the baby I’d be much happier to raise a family.
Because I just don’t see the upside. Yes, I’m sure they bring some joy to your life. But I’d rather have my free time, money to live fairly comfortably, my sanity by not having to worry about raising a child and my freedom. Having children is such a fixed existence. It’s just not worth the hard work.
>”despite proactively being on all of the apps, it just didn’t happen.”
It’s almost as if those apps are bullshit and geared for 1 night stands and not to find a genuine connection.
36 comments
Key points for those who can’t be bothered to click:
The number of babies born in England and Wales is the lowest since the 1970s.
The fertility rate is the lowest on record at 1.44. Scotland’s is even lower at 1.3.
Question: So what’s causing the fall-off in fertility?
Answer: There’s the high cost of bringing up children, the pressure to stay in work and the challenge of finding the right partner.
Plus evidence that more and more young adults don’t plan on having any children at all.
So young(ish) people of the UK, why are you not having kids?
I can afford them. Got a great paying job. A house etc.
Kids are shit bags by default. It’s in their nature.
I’d rather have a cat. At least with a cat I won’t spend 20 years raising it for it to turn into a roadman… Or whatever the next iteration of degenerates are called.
The world’s a lot more complex now and bringing lives into this collective steaming bag of virtue signalling shit, feels like a moral dilemma.
It’s an interesting article, more interesting that the headline they went with is about “dating is fruitless”, when the other 3 people that they cover are a better snapshot of the current social landscape I feel rather than the 1 person who hasn’t found a match at 39.
They don’t even give reason as to why her dating life hasn’t gone as she planned or details into it. This is more of a personal takeaway from me but if you haven’t found a match by 39, it’s probably more on you than anything else, OR you’re just that unlucky statistic that fate threw all the bad opportunities at, either way it shouldn’t be the headline story for this reality of this article (and the newspaper knows that, hence why it’s the most comment-evoking response)
Zero interest … nothing to do with cost.
It just looks dreadful; majority of free time gone and obviously a lot less disposable income.
Those who say it is driven by women not being rich enough, well the global trend over the last 200+ years is the complete opposite: as women get wealthier and better educated, the fewer babies they have.
The fertility rate in 19th century Europe (and in earlier centuries) was _much_ higher yet most women lived in unimaginable levels of poverty and hardship; their economic conditions were infinitely worse. And today in Western European countries the groups who tend to have the largest families are first gen migrants, who are often the poorest and with the worst housing situation.
It’s a cultural thing, highly educated women in their 20s given the choice tend to delay having babies and focus on their jobs instead. But the 20s are the most fertile period, so delaying makes it very difficult for themselves by starting in their 30s. We have lost all the societal, cultural and religious pressure to have babies and the only groups who now have surplus birth rates are the highly religious and global poor who _for now_ have **not** lost those cultural norms and pressure.
Yet again the terms fertility and birthrate being used interchangeably and thus incorrectly.
Fertility is the *ability* to reproduce.
Birthrate (natality) is the actual rate of babies being born.
Both fertility and birthrate are decreasing, meaning the ability to reproduce is dropping AND the desire to reproduce is also dropping.
Mainly three reasons – cost childcare is extortionate, cost of living is too high and wages aren’t matching the high cost of living that’s going up constantly.
Know someone that’s paying almost a grand on childcare. Both parents work but still struggling to keep up.
Not saying people shouldn’t be open about wanting kids, but I would think it’s too late to be dating with the purpose of reproduction, if you don’t also have many years to get to know the person before having children with them. If you want to spread your genes, you can donate them to people who are ready. Otherwise, plan for adoption.
I feel like for the first child you decide to have (or not have) there are different factors at play compared to your second.
Your first is more about desire, do you want a child or don’t you? Yes there are costs but if you really want a child, people make it work.
A lot of the stuff people are mentioning like childcare costs, career, maternity care etc. are more issues we considered when deciding whether to try for our second child or not.
I knew we could afford a first child, I didn’t consider any of the other stuff like maternity care and it’s affect on my career. We did decide to have a second child but I am much more conscious about how much it’s setting me back in my job seeing it first hand after my first maternity leave and the mortality of the situation is forefront in my mind due to issues I had after the first birth. I wanted it enough but I can appreciate why people are put off for sure.
Political policy only perpetuates politics and isn’t actually what’s right for society. Losing the connection between multiple generations of families doesn’t help either. We have destroyed the way we evolved to live and help each other out in an actually community. Massive change will happen, but only when everything has collapsed to force it.
I am childfree by choice rather than necessity. I don’t want children, and I think lots of people feel this way.
It isn’t a financial decision. I simply have no interest in it, and fortunately, my partner feels the same.
Being an uncle and having the ability to choose how much time I spend with them is great. You can be as involved as you want, and I find I’m rarely interested.
M35. Never wanted kids or marriage. I must have been about 10-12 when I realised. The thought is just reeeally not for me.
NB: I am also very much in a position where I could afford to have one and it’d be fine. I just hear the sound of a crying baby and put headphones in.
Me and my wife are 41.
We’ve been together 23 years. We had a discussion long ago that we didn’t want kids for the very simple reason that we didn’t want to raise kids in this shithole of a world and we wanted to enjoy life just the 2 of us.
Cost was never really a factor, they’d be in their 20s by now if they had ever existed.
I don’t spend time around women like I did when I was in University or working in retail / hospitality.
I am not on dating apps and I’m not the sort of person to approach random people in the street.
dating doesn’t even exist for me and I’m about to enter my 30s lol
I don’t have my own place there is literally very little space for me to exist comfortably and strike up a conversation with a woman who is also existing comfortably.
She doesn’t say why it’s fruitless. Are the men not good enough for her? Has she had too many bad experiences? Does she need to change her approach or expectations? The way many girls seem to approach dating is simply horrific, and they seem to walk around with a long shopping list of requirements. Are they really that good themselves? She’s hardly a super catch from what I can see.
Another problem stemming from high housing costs. If housing costs were lower, through good quality state funded social housing being readily available, lots of modern issues would be solved
Having been involved in a business dealing with bridal stuff and seeing so many nasty divorces , put me off marriage for life
A lot of misogynistic comments in here. Can’t say I’m shocked from this sub.
Britain has gone to shit in the last 30 years. Its no surprise people aren’t having kids
I think the thing that people really miss is that it’s not just that people can’t afford to have children it’s that people are time poor.
Obviously people 200 years ago had less resources but a couple did have more time.
It’s hardly a suprise that couples can’t have children when they jointly need to work around 80 hours a week.
Raise minimum wage so that a 60hr week is enough and I’m certain you’d see the birth rate rise.
Bare in mind this isn’t just an impact that means more people having sex but also an impact in that close family (parents, aunts, uncles and sometimes even grandparents) have time to spend helping raise children which takes the burden off a chunk.
As a woman, a single woman too, it’s just not feasible. If I were to have a child I’d likely have to do it alone and that would involve living off benefits as I wouldn’t be able to work my current job at the same time.
I’m sorry but the system hasn’t adapted to changing living standards and expectations of women. You either want us to make babies or be workers, you can’t do both no matter how much people lie to themselves about it.
We have got to stop being such a low-paid, high-cost country.
When two people who together earn twice the average salary in South-East England still can’t buy a house and are not having children because of that, economy and society is broken.
Build. More. Houses.
(and the other things, like maternity pay same as income before giving birth, etc)
Highly educated professional with own home. Just failing to meet someone who can be an equal partner in my life. I’m not settling for someone I don’t like living with and as yet haven’t succeeded in finding that person.
I feel sorry for the woman who froze her eggs at 39. She probably thinks she has an insurance policy for a future family. When in fact at her age most of those eggs are abnormal, and anyway eggs don’t freeze/thaw very well. She should have made embryos she could test. Some clinic was too quick to take her money without being honest about the chances and risks.
We’re 33 and 31. Actively trying for a baby. Don’t own our own house yet, are early-stages in building a career (both of us will probably go back to education at some point), have just moved back here (for me, spouse is moving here for first time) from Canada to the UK.
On paper it looks like we shouldn’t even be thinking about a child. But it’s all we want. We figure there’s never a “perfect” time to have a baby and you just have to get on with it. We trust all will be fine. But we’re lucky to be in a stable relationship of 11years+, engaged, and now we’re back here we at least have the support network of one of our family an hour away (the other is a 10 hour flight).
The only stumbling blocks we are really facing is the piss poor maternity/paternity pay and the NHS. The former isn’t anywhere near enough to cover half our income being gone, I worry about the time I’ll sacrifice with my newborn in order to keep working, and the NHS has been dogshit in helping us figure out my spouse’s potential health issues that are contributing to the reason we’re not expecting one yet.
I think it’s more nuanced than finances.
Why have kids when this nation and government fosters a system that makes it too expensive to do so?
The points brought up here are almost all valid, and I generally understand them but one.
It has, by any reasonable metric, never been *easier* to find the right partner. I’m sorry, but meeting people was objectively harder 30 years ago.
My personal theory is that it’s because those fucking apps fried our brains, and now we all immediately look to replacing our partner at the first sign of imperfection or having to work for it.
This is the one thing where I think “no, things haven’t gotten harder, we’re all just expecting more.”
* Nobody can afford a house
* Cost of living is obscene
* Both parents need to work
* Childcare is also expensive
* All Public Services are getting slammed
* Patriotism and belief in ones own country is the lowest its ever been.
* TikTok brain people think they can get this celebrity façade of a lifestyle people put online and will ruin a perfectly good relationship thinking the grass is always greener.
* Online dating causes a very skewed rate of matches in people. Despite how sexually positive society is now, males being virgins is the highest its ever been in recorded history. Why would women sleep with 5s when the 10s online will have sex with them? This wouldn’t be too big an issue if they didn’t for some reason believe these same men would like to settle down with these average women instead of continuing to have sex with other more preferable women. (This is a weird one)
* Divorce is also far more common. People abandon ship instead of working through tough times together. (Not actual abuse, but just feeling bored or something menial. Nobody is expecting you to live in a loveless boring marriage. But more often than not, it wont be if you actually communicate with your partner)
* Britain’s bureaucratic red tape hells cape wont allow any construction of any new jobs. Easier and cheaper to just create jobs abroad. 10 years to complete a simple staircase ffs(this is a real thing). Let alone actual beneficial infrastructure.
And then every single government we have, has no backbone and only wants to be seen as virtuous. Sending money off into the abyss for them to pocket and consistently allowing ILLEGAL immigration. People who are benefiting from these public services while the majority will never pay taxes in any capacity. Illegals are not the immigrants any country wants. Not even their own.
Honestly. The audacity to complain about the struggles of the NHS while actively causing its decline. There is literally no end to illegal immigration. It is slowly bleeding the country. This isn’t the clean positive immigration previous studies have shown. These people aren’t Asylum Seekers and France isn’t a war torn country.
What bothers me is how easy this is to see. So easy in fact, that its safe to assume the government is actually far-right. Its actively causing such radicalisation. You think people put in jail for 12 months because of mean racist tweet are going to suddenly change their ways? Of course not. You think these riots and two-tier policing are a new thing? Its been slowly increasing for around two decades now. Brexit was a cry for help, and still nothing changed lol.
Something is going to give.
When you can barely afford to look after yourself, how will you be able to look after an expensive little human too?
Lose all my free time, struggle financially, be constantly stressed about keeping a little human alive, no thanks
Overall, dating apps hinder rather than help people get into relationships, and this Elie is a prime example of that.
We can all rightly point out issues like cost of living, housing and childcare costs, but really a lot of us struggle to even get past the first hurdle.
No positive Exampels plus no Community. Every mother i know is either a Single parent or a Full-Time Job plus 50s Maid. We have new values for Society but the Transformation is Not working. Plus i See a lot of Family 2.0 Daddys which is very discouraging…
I’m female so having a child will destroy my body and my career.
We can’t afford full-time childcare so I’d have to go part time (husband works away a lot). Forget me ever getting to whatever level I once hoped to achieve through work.
The main reason for me though:
Healthcare for women in the UK is abysmal. Having babies is highly destructive on a woman’s body. I’d have no choice but to suffer for it for the rest of my life. My mother had to have one of those metal gauze things added to her pelvic floor, and we’ve probably all seen the news articles about what happened to women who had that surgery.
Fuck that. If my husband could have the baby I’d be much happier to raise a family.
Because I just don’t see the upside. Yes, I’m sure they bring some joy to your life. But I’d rather have my free time, money to live fairly comfortably, my sanity by not having to worry about raising a child and my freedom. Having children is such a fixed existence. It’s just not worth the hard work.
>”despite proactively being on all of the apps, it just didn’t happen.”
It’s almost as if those apps are bullshit and geared for 1 night stands and not to find a genuine connection.
How can someone get to 40 and not realise that?
Comments are closed.