No shit Sherlock. With the youth gangs everyone would be a target.
Everyone even remotely familiar knew this would be the outcome. It would cost tens of billions for marginal benefits.
The moment someone tries to implement driverless trains, the Strikes will cripple the entire network, not just for days but for years.
It’ll take decades to implement the infrastructure, during which Londoners would basically have to cope with no Tube Service.
It’s a non-starter.
Might as well copy my [comment I made in another thread talking about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/london/s/sgYKGjIQDf) explaining how the DLR may be “driverless” but still has to have someone capable of driving the train onboard every single service. Moving the tube to GOA3 would be a monumental waste of money.
> The DLR is a [GOA3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation#Grades_of_automation) railway, the automation is simply responsible for driving the train from one station to the next, it has no oversight of the platform train interface, no ability determine if it’s safe for the train to move (other than from a “not crashing into the train in front” perspective, and no capability for working in degraded scenarios.
>
> On every DLR train there is a member of staff on board (you may not always see them because they can be anywhere throughout the length of the train) that mostly acts like a guard, operating the doors and ensuring safe departures from stations, the trains are incapable of running without them.
>
> This staff member is also able to take full control of the train and drive it from the front when the signaling is degraded, they also operate the train from the front (with it still in auto) when there’s safety requirement for someone to be observing the track ahead i.e. when there are reports of vulnerable passengers at a station or personnel on the track (staff or trespassers)
>
> It’s worth noting that much like tube drivers, these staff are trained in train fault finding and rectification and often make interventions to keep the service running smoothly. They are also responsible for entering/withdrawing trains from service from the depots since the automation only exists on the mainline.
>
> These staff hold essentially the same competencies as tube drivers and are paid only about 10-15% less, they are represented by the RMT union and have the same powers of strike action that would impact the service identically to their tube driver counterparts.
>
>
>
> For the DLR to move to GOA4 (unattended operation) it would at a minimum require the fitment of platform edge doors at all stations (the modern standard is actually to have these on GOA3 railways but the DLR was built in the 1980s and is an outlier), significantly increased segregation from the public realm in the overground sections and increased segregation from the National Rail tracks it runs adjacent to in certain areas.
>
> It would also require significant improvements to train reliability since any faults that halt the running of a train would strand it until a mobile technician could arrive.
>
> Additional security staff would likely need to be hired to roam the network as almost all DLR stations are unstaffed, and any emergency maintenance work on the track would require the complete stoppage of trains.
>
>
>
>
>
> Over on the London Underground it is very likely that the highest automation achievable is GOA3 due to the lack of tunnel walkways and intervention/evacuation points, even this wouldn’t be possible system wide due to mixed rolling stock running on the same lines in certain locations making platform edge doors unfeasible and interworking with National Rail trains on the same track in certain locations.
(And they were never likely to come about)
If you know anything about what the train drivers do / what happens in an emergency, this was a fucking stupid idea the whole fucking time
There are lots of reasons it’s hard, but it’s not a unique challenge. On the Paris Metro, lines 1 and 4 have been fully automated (in addition to line 14 which was always automated). The lines are old and have been extended and modified over time, the stations are small and closely spaced and difficult to access, the city is full of complicated old buildings, the unions are grumpy, the infrastructure is quirky and non-standard. They fitted platform-screen doors at all stations.
Even if they were, the drivers would go on strike through to the next millennium
good luck dealing with the union if that is to happen. there will be strikes every week.
It’s worth pointing out that this feasibility study was the idea of the previous government as a condition of COVID bailout money. I don’t think anyone at the time thought it was actually, well, feasible.
I’d be much more trusting of my life being in the hands of a person rather than AI anyway,
Which Tory donor consultancy got paid for this report that literally EVERYONE could have determined the outcome?
13 comments
[deleted]
No shit Sherlock. With the youth gangs everyone would be a target.
Everyone even remotely familiar knew this would be the outcome. It would cost tens of billions for marginal benefits.
The moment someone tries to implement driverless trains, the Strikes will cripple the entire network, not just for days but for years.
It’ll take decades to implement the infrastructure, during which Londoners would basically have to cope with no Tube Service.
It’s a non-starter.
Might as well copy my [comment I made in another thread talking about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/london/s/sgYKGjIQDf) explaining how the DLR may be “driverless” but still has to have someone capable of driving the train onboard every single service. Moving the tube to GOA3 would be a monumental waste of money.
> The DLR is a [GOA3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation#Grades_of_automation) railway, the automation is simply responsible for driving the train from one station to the next, it has no oversight of the platform train interface, no ability determine if it’s safe for the train to move (other than from a “not crashing into the train in front” perspective, and no capability for working in degraded scenarios.
>
> On every DLR train there is a member of staff on board (you may not always see them because they can be anywhere throughout the length of the train) that mostly acts like a guard, operating the doors and ensuring safe departures from stations, the trains are incapable of running without them.
>
> This staff member is also able to take full control of the train and drive it from the front when the signaling is degraded, they also operate the train from the front (with it still in auto) when there’s safety requirement for someone to be observing the track ahead i.e. when there are reports of vulnerable passengers at a station or personnel on the track (staff or trespassers)
>
> It’s worth noting that much like tube drivers, these staff are trained in train fault finding and rectification and often make interventions to keep the service running smoothly. They are also responsible for entering/withdrawing trains from service from the depots since the automation only exists on the mainline.
>
> These staff hold essentially the same competencies as tube drivers and are paid only about 10-15% less, they are represented by the RMT union and have the same powers of strike action that would impact the service identically to their tube driver counterparts.
>
>
>
> For the DLR to move to GOA4 (unattended operation) it would at a minimum require the fitment of platform edge doors at all stations (the modern standard is actually to have these on GOA3 railways but the DLR was built in the 1980s and is an outlier), significantly increased segregation from the public realm in the overground sections and increased segregation from the National Rail tracks it runs adjacent to in certain areas.
>
> It would also require significant improvements to train reliability since any faults that halt the running of a train would strand it until a mobile technician could arrive.
>
> Additional security staff would likely need to be hired to roam the network as almost all DLR stations are unstaffed, and any emergency maintenance work on the track would require the complete stoppage of trains.
>
>
>
>
>
> Over on the London Underground it is very likely that the highest automation achievable is GOA3 due to the lack of tunnel walkways and intervention/evacuation points, even this wouldn’t be possible system wide due to mixed rolling stock running on the same lines in certain locations making platform edge doors unfeasible and interworking with National Rail trains on the same track in certain locations.
(And they were never likely to come about)
If you know anything about what the train drivers do / what happens in an emergency, this was a fucking stupid idea the whole fucking time
There are lots of reasons it’s hard, but it’s not a unique challenge. On the Paris Metro, lines 1 and 4 have been fully automated (in addition to line 14 which was always automated). The lines are old and have been extended and modified over time, the stations are small and closely spaced and difficult to access, the city is full of complicated old buildings, the unions are grumpy, the infrastructure is quirky and non-standard. They fitted platform-screen doors at all stations.
Even if they were, the drivers would go on strike through to the next millennium
good luck dealing with the union if that is to happen. there will be strikes every week.
It’s worth pointing out that this feasibility study was the idea of the previous government as a condition of COVID bailout money. I don’t think anyone at the time thought it was actually, well, feasible.
I’d be much more trusting of my life being in the hands of a person rather than AI anyway,
Which Tory donor consultancy got paid for this report that literally EVERYONE could have determined the outcome?
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