Tell me more about that Nato which rejected Ukraine repeatedly, especially in 2008, and also the Ukrainian populace having minimal interest in joining nato until after the russian invasion.
you’re not a russian bot. you’re just clueless. the “russia was provoked” argument is idiocy. this war has been entirely been fought for russian imperial ambitions and for putin’s political needs to distract the russian populace with an outside enemy while he robs them blind.
your both siding this is rubbish. “what the US has done in the middle east?” what land in the middle east has the us annexed, exactly?
GO AWAY.
Wasn’t Trump a veteran in the Golf War?
NATO was a defensive alliance in 1960 so that disproves your “never was a defensive alliance” easily
Nobody but russia is to blame here fuck your brainless take russia only wants the ussr back at any cost and has spread some clearly effective propaganda (nato caused the war) far and wide if those truely are your views.
“3- The US never wanted to truly normalize relations with Russia unless the Russian Leadership was fully aligned with western views and interests”
What the heck does this mean? US has normalized relations with plenty of countries that are not fully aligned with them – India, European Union, Mexico, South American countries.
What Western views and interests are you talking about? European views and interests are very different than American ones. Yours is a meaningless statement.
“5- Russia was provoked by the west into this proxy war”
Again wtf are you talking about? the West provoked Russia… by paying handsomely for its oil and gas and not interfering with domestic Russian policies in any way?
This isn’t a proxy war buddy. Ukraine is fighting for its life on its own behalf and of its own accord. Are there global implications? Yeah, but just because China is interested in the outcome doesn’t mean Russia is fighting a proxy war for China.
I nearly had a stroke trying to read this
The thing is: Russia doesn’t need your argumentative support. They have a perfect mind acrobatics defense and in their heads this all makes absolutely sense. So in a way you are useless. The west doesn’t want your arguments and Russia doesn’t need it.
#5 the most egregious. There were signed agreements to keep Ukraine whole and Russia violated them with an armed invasion, first in 2014 and most blatantly in 2022.
The West was trying their best for years to stabilize relations with Russia after the USSR collapsed while they trialed democracy.
Putin false flagged his own country to retain/consolidate power. Then, he invaded Crimea because he wanted more Black Sea ports. His excuse is NATO but the only NATO country in that area. Turkiye, has been neutral at best with regards to Russia so he’s just blowing smoke.
All of this is because Vladimir Putin cannot stand that he doesn’t control the lands of the former Russian empire.
NATO wasn’t a participant in the gulf war. A number of NATO allies as well as Middle Eastern and other countries were but NATO wasn’t. Several NATO countries had no involvement.
NATO wasn’t involved in the Gulf War or subsequent Middle Eastern conflicts. Many NATO members even opposed the US-led “War on Terror.” A country being a NATO member doesn’t mean its actions represent NATO. NATO operations are defensive. They’re triggered only when a member nation is attacked, invoking Article 4 of the treaty.
It’s unfair that people dismiss you as a Russian bot and shut down discussion. However, you seem to misunderstand NATO’s role in those conflicts. It makes it difficult to have a productive conversation when you demonstrate to lack even basic fundamental facts on the topic.
I must say, you guys are close minded beyomd belief. Never in a single moment i comdomed Russia or said their invasion is ok. But apparently in your minds, saying there is more than one wrong side here its the exact same as supporting Putin and the invasion evem though thats not a real argument. Your side really needs to hear disagreemnet amd learm not to smear it as propaganda. Be better
Neither of the wars with Iraq were NATO operations. The first one was international coalition, even the USSR gave their approval and Syrian troops also took part. The second was not a NATO operation as major European NATO states like France and Germany voted against it.
You’ll get a civil conversation when you know what you’re talking about instead of trying to spread bullshit.
“Historical literacy motherfucker, do you have it?”
Your problem is that you are being the uncivilised one. Your arguments are from a backwards, upside down, fascistic and cynical view of the world, that are spoken only to defend barbaric acts that are causing mass suffering. You’re fucked up and are being called out for your disgusting behaviour. Learn some empathy and morals. Shameful.
You shouldn’t be astonished, as most of what you say follows Putler’s narrative very closely:
1. Russia IS the only one at fault here. They were the ones marching into Crimea and Donbas in 2014 without provocation. The narrative that the Donbas rose up against Kyiv in 2014 has been well proven to be a lie, as that “uprising” was fully orchestrated by the FSB and the “separatists” were more than 50% Russian troops from day one. The Maidan movement had about ten times as many followers in Eastern Ukraine as the Anti-Maidan movement, and many Anti-Maidan protesters have been proven to have been paid by Russia to even show up. There was never a democratic uprising in Eastern Ukraine. That’s all well documented.
2. NATO was not involved the in the Gulf War. The US isn’t NATO on its own. They intervened on behalf of Kuwait against an aggression that originated purely from Iraq. In Yugoslavia, NATO intervened on behalf of the Albanians, as they were facing extinction by genocide. The UN would have mandated them if it weren’t for the veto of Russia and China, both fascist entities who backed genocide already back then. In Libya, NATO intervened on behalf of democratic forces and civilians who were systematically murdered by the Gaddafi regime. All the victims of aggression BEGGED the US and NATO to intervene, which makes the interventions perfectly legitimate. Definitely more legitimate than the goals of the fascist aggressors in any case.
3. What does that even mean, “fully aligned with western views”? The US demanded nothing more than a democratization of Russia, which is a perfectly legitimate demand. Remaining an autocratic state on the other hand is NOT a legitimate demand according to international law. After the cold war had ended, the relations *were* normalized. Without the billions flowing into Russia from the west, they would have collapsed completely. Russia was basically on its way into NATO itself in the late 90s. The west didn’t antagonize Russia, it helped them beyond their objective responsibility and let them get away with a ton of criminal behavior in the name of peace, hoping they would get it at some point.
4. The Nazi argument is bullshit. Just because far-right patriots are the first to volunteer (all armies in the world draw in Nazis, because Nazis are drawn to violence), doesn’t mean a country is lead by them or they even have a decisive influence. The far right never made it above 10% of parliament seats (that was when the Russians invaded in 2014), then dropped back to 1% immediately. No systematic crimes by Azov & co. against the people of occupied Donbas could be found by international investigators, whereas regular attacks on civilians by the “separatists” (again: mostly Russian troops) were documented. Russia on the other hand had all properties of a fascist dictatorship at that point, an their partners in Ukraine were Russian ultra-nationalists (= Neonazis).
5. The west never provoked Russia, on the contrary, we appeased them far beyond reason. It was the Russians who constantly infringed on NATO airspace etc. Ukraine was in its full right to apply for NATO at any point (according to international law), the stories of NATO promising not to expand eastwards have long been debunked as nonsense. Besides that, NATO never actively expanded eastwards. It was the Eastern European countries who begged NATO to take them in because they were constantly threatened and bullied by Russia. It was simply their only way to protect themselves against the Russian aggressors. And, again, every country has a RIGHT to join whatever alliances they want under international law, and Russia does NOT have a say in it. Russia’s demands were purely based on old imperial entitlement that didn’t have any legitimacy anymore.
So you see, there are many reasons to call you a Russian propagandist based on your false statements.
15 comments
Ah yes, the “Golf war.”
Tell me more about that Nato which rejected Ukraine repeatedly, especially in 2008, and also the Ukrainian populace having minimal interest in joining nato until after the russian invasion.
you’re not a russian bot. you’re just clueless. the “russia was provoked” argument is idiocy. this war has been entirely been fought for russian imperial ambitions and for putin’s political needs to distract the russian populace with an outside enemy while he robs them blind.
your both siding this is rubbish. “what the US has done in the middle east?” what land in the middle east has the us annexed, exactly?
GO AWAY.
Wasn’t Trump a veteran in the Golf War?
NATO was a defensive alliance in 1960 so that disproves your “never was a defensive alliance” easily
Nobody but russia is to blame here fuck your brainless take russia only wants the ussr back at any cost and has spread some clearly effective propaganda (nato caused the war) far and wide if those truely are your views.
“3- The US never wanted to truly normalize relations with Russia unless the Russian Leadership was fully aligned with western views and interests”
What the heck does this mean? US has normalized relations with plenty of countries that are not fully aligned with them – India, European Union, Mexico, South American countries.
What Western views and interests are you talking about? European views and interests are very different than American ones. Yours is a meaningless statement.
“5- Russia was provoked by the west into this proxy war”
Again wtf are you talking about? the West provoked Russia… by paying handsomely for its oil and gas and not interfering with domestic Russian policies in any way?
This isn’t a proxy war buddy. Ukraine is fighting for its life on its own behalf and of its own accord. Are there global implications? Yeah, but just because China is interested in the outcome doesn’t mean Russia is fighting a proxy war for China.
I nearly had a stroke trying to read this
The thing is: Russia doesn’t need your argumentative support. They have a perfect mind acrobatics defense and in their heads this all makes absolutely sense. So in a way you are useless. The west doesn’t want your arguments and Russia doesn’t need it.
#5 the most egregious. There were signed agreements to keep Ukraine whole and Russia violated them with an armed invasion, first in 2014 and most blatantly in 2022.
The West was trying their best for years to stabilize relations with Russia after the USSR collapsed while they trialed democracy.
Putin false flagged his own country to retain/consolidate power. Then, he invaded Crimea because he wanted more Black Sea ports. His excuse is NATO but the only NATO country in that area. Turkiye, has been neutral at best with regards to Russia so he’s just blowing smoke.
All of this is because Vladimir Putin cannot stand that he doesn’t control the lands of the former Russian empire.
NATO wasn’t a participant in the gulf war. A number of NATO allies as well as Middle Eastern and other countries were but NATO wasn’t. Several NATO countries had no involvement.
NATO wasn’t involved in the Gulf War or subsequent Middle Eastern conflicts. Many NATO members even opposed the US-led “War on Terror.” A country being a NATO member doesn’t mean its actions represent NATO. NATO operations are defensive. They’re triggered only when a member nation is attacked, invoking Article 4 of the treaty.
It’s unfair that people dismiss you as a Russian bot and shut down discussion. However, you seem to misunderstand NATO’s role in those conflicts. It makes it difficult to have a productive conversation when you demonstrate to lack even basic fundamental facts on the topic.
I must say, you guys are close minded beyomd belief. Never in a single moment i comdomed Russia or said their invasion is ok. But apparently in your minds, saying there is more than one wrong side here its the exact same as supporting Putin and the invasion evem though thats not a real argument. Your side really needs to hear disagreemnet amd learm not to smear it as propaganda. Be better
Neither of the wars with Iraq were NATO operations. The first one was international coalition, even the USSR gave their approval and Syrian troops also took part. The second was not a NATO operation as major European NATO states like France and Germany voted against it.
You’ll get a civil conversation when you know what you’re talking about instead of trying to spread bullshit.
“Historical literacy motherfucker, do you have it?”
Your problem is that you are being the uncivilised one. Your arguments are from a backwards, upside down, fascistic and cynical view of the world, that are spoken only to defend barbaric acts that are causing mass suffering. You’re fucked up and are being called out for your disgusting behaviour. Learn some empathy and morals. Shameful.
You shouldn’t be astonished, as most of what you say follows Putler’s narrative very closely:
1. Russia IS the only one at fault here. They were the ones marching into Crimea and Donbas in 2014 without provocation. The narrative that the Donbas rose up against Kyiv in 2014 has been well proven to be a lie, as that “uprising” was fully orchestrated by the FSB and the “separatists” were more than 50% Russian troops from day one. The Maidan movement had about ten times as many followers in Eastern Ukraine as the Anti-Maidan movement, and many Anti-Maidan protesters have been proven to have been paid by Russia to even show up. There was never a democratic uprising in Eastern Ukraine. That’s all well documented.
2. NATO was not involved the in the Gulf War. The US isn’t NATO on its own. They intervened on behalf of Kuwait against an aggression that originated purely from Iraq. In Yugoslavia, NATO intervened on behalf of the Albanians, as they were facing extinction by genocide. The UN would have mandated them if it weren’t for the veto of Russia and China, both fascist entities who backed genocide already back then. In Libya, NATO intervened on behalf of democratic forces and civilians who were systematically murdered by the Gaddafi regime. All the victims of aggression BEGGED the US and NATO to intervene, which makes the interventions perfectly legitimate. Definitely more legitimate than the goals of the fascist aggressors in any case.
3. What does that even mean, “fully aligned with western views”? The US demanded nothing more than a democratization of Russia, which is a perfectly legitimate demand. Remaining an autocratic state on the other hand is NOT a legitimate demand according to international law. After the cold war had ended, the relations *were* normalized. Without the billions flowing into Russia from the west, they would have collapsed completely. Russia was basically on its way into NATO itself in the late 90s. The west didn’t antagonize Russia, it helped them beyond their objective responsibility and let them get away with a ton of criminal behavior in the name of peace, hoping they would get it at some point.
4. The Nazi argument is bullshit. Just because far-right patriots are the first to volunteer (all armies in the world draw in Nazis, because Nazis are drawn to violence), doesn’t mean a country is lead by them or they even have a decisive influence. The far right never made it above 10% of parliament seats (that was when the Russians invaded in 2014), then dropped back to 1% immediately. No systematic crimes by Azov & co. against the people of occupied Donbas could be found by international investigators, whereas regular attacks on civilians by the “separatists” (again: mostly Russian troops) were documented. Russia on the other hand had all properties of a fascist dictatorship at that point, an their partners in Ukraine were Russian ultra-nationalists (= Neonazis).
5. The west never provoked Russia, on the contrary, we appeased them far beyond reason. It was the Russians who constantly infringed on NATO airspace etc. Ukraine was in its full right to apply for NATO at any point (according to international law), the stories of NATO promising not to expand eastwards have long been debunked as nonsense. Besides that, NATO never actively expanded eastwards. It was the Eastern European countries who begged NATO to take them in because they were constantly threatened and bullied by Russia. It was simply their only way to protect themselves against the Russian aggressors. And, again, every country has a RIGHT to join whatever alliances they want under international law, and Russia does NOT have a say in it. Russia’s demands were purely based on old imperial entitlement that didn’t have any legitimacy anymore.
So you see, there are many reasons to call you a Russian propagandist based on your false statements.
Comments are closed.