Why would I employ someone who failed English and maths as an apprentice?
So it’s sort the degrees out and dump the rest into apprenticeships ?
They frame this as a way to stop the rise in “mickey mouse” degrees, but it isn’t. It’s an attack on non-rich students who can only go to university with a loan.
I always see it this way; children do not fail the education system, the education system fails children.
I can accep the idea that someone should have to pass GCSE English/maths to be able to go to university, that’s not entirely senseless. But if that’s the case there should be LIFE LONG support for people to pass, however long it takes. If you can’t pass your GCSEs by 16 then you can keep trying until you do, and for free of course.
This move isn’t supportive; threats are no way to encourage better education. It’s a stick without a carrot and it improves nothing. It’s the classic “success is entirely down to hard work” ethos that underpins Tory bullshit. If you want to improve education, give us the resources to do so.
Edit: OK so maths, English and IT GCSEs are – according to [gov.uk](https://gov.uk) – “usually free” and if it’s not then you may be entitled to learning support funding. Still, I’d be interested to know how readily available and easily accessible it is. And it doesn’t dismiss the point that it is the responsibility of the school to ensure students don’t fail – and of course the responsibility of the government to fund schools to have the resources to meet their purpose.
I mean, odds on pupils who don’t have 5+ GCSE A-C (or whatever the numbering system is – talk about fixing what wasn’t broken) including English and Maths aren’t likely to apply for university anyway being as they likely aren’t going on to A-Levels which are the main prerequisite for university.
That said, if they DO go on to A-Level and actually do well, why stop them from going on to university to study subjects like philosophy, or English, or art or graphic design just because they got a D in Maths? I can’t imagine not being great at maths is a hindrance in those subjects.
I hope they make an exception for Deaf people. Many don’t speak/write English well and they still excel at university.
Is this how we get more working class white boys into uni?
People are getting into uni with no English or Maths GCSE anyway?
GCSE’s are an antiquated concept that need relegating to the dustbin of history.
We need Mastery based education. Similar to how we teach a musical instruments or a martial art. You work towards level one, then you have a pass/fail assessment that you can retake multiple times, shoring up your weaknesses. As you gain mastery your level increases until you’re grade 8 piano … or whatever.
People thrive under this kind of challenge/achievement ladder. Giving kids one shot, then branding them with a letter, is just nonsense. And curtails life opportunities. Bin the GCSE.
Soooooo
Somehow manage to fail Maths and English at GCSE level….
Think they somehow should go to uni.
Seems legit
Doing them a favour. Apprentice in a trade or self-teach something like programming. Within couple of years you’ll be making more than most Bachelors graduates can dream of and have none of the debt, whilst they won’t have even finished their degree yet lol.
So what this does is kneecap the children affected worst by the pandemic who are now struggling to keep up with school work
How did I know this sub would be complaining about this, a pass in English and Maths, or 2 **Es** at A-Level is an incredibly low bar to hit. Controversial opinion I know, but maybe students who utterly fail at both GCSE and A-Level shouldn’t be studying at University.
The amount of classist bastards in the comments worries me.
Pupils who do not pass GCSE English (or an equivalent) will struggle to write assignments at university (maths is obviously not necessary for many degrees). A better solution would be to make it easier and free to access post-secondary English courses that prepare students for academic writing. Academic writing is a skill that even those who do pass GCSE English struggle with, I have graded some work in the past and some have a poor standard of English. Rather than blocking immediate access, the government should instead provide more support to all pupils to want to attend through improved funding to further education.
Which unis are letting people in without an average grade in Maths or English?
I don’t even know where I stand. The whole poor kid gets no loans fallacy is ridiculous. I’m from a dirt poor family, I went to university. The whole system was designed to help me the poor kid and limited the funding for the rich kid so I don’t exactly understand the implication.
The focus needs to be on improving education standards.
The point being lost here is the monetisation of our children’s futures. The ‘American model’ of the indebting of young people who want to be educated to a higher degree no matter in what area. I am old enough to remember when education to higher degrees in this country was subsidised by a state that recognised the value of having a constant stream of highly educated citizens entering the workforce was a long term positive investment in our county’s future. It’s not that long ago. The current system is purely for the enrichment of a select few.
The replies to this are unbelievable. If you can’t pass English and maths (bear in mind an E is a pass), you don’t deserve to go to university, especially with public money.
Ok? This makes sense.
Far too many people who are unsuited for higher education are being pushed into it when they are not going to get any value out of it. This is a very very low bar to higher education.
This is incredibly cruel…there are so many undiagnosed kids or kids in abusive environments without the support they need already, shutting off loans for them is horrific.
I came from an extremely abusive (sexual, emotional, physical,, all the things) environment, I was made to care full time (couldn’t get a part time job, or see friends), for my extremely disabled sister. often I was up 2-6 times during the night contently looking after her. These things were not picked up on, I struggled in maths and english horribly.
I failed GCSE maths multiple times, (managed to scrape a pass in english) retook it during my A levels, still could not pass. Managed to get into uni (barely), first year tutors suggested I get tested, turns out I was dyslexic/dyspraxic and dyscalculic, got help/support, never went below a 2.1 in any work, came out with a first degree in business/history. University was my escape, a lifeline i’m so, so glad I had. now I know i’m not stupid, and I can thrive in a good environment, cutting kids off from this is so callous.
Still don’t have that maths GCSE.
This is cruel.
See I failed my Maths and English at school.
I now have a Masters Degree.
My failure at school was due to personal circumstances (I basically stopped attending year 11) and later I gained my Functional Skills at college alongside my Access Course.
No GSCE ≠ not able.
TF kinda comments are these, they somehow forget that A-levels and BTECs and foundation years still exist. Just cause you failed at 16 years old doesn’t mean you won’t make it to uni if you get your act together in sixth form
People here are missing a key factor; GCSEs are graded normatively. The grade boundaries are shifted so that the top 10% get above an 8 the top 20% get above a 7 and so on (these are not the actual specific numbers but the real numbers are essentially constructed like that).
One 3rd of GCSE students fail GCSE maths and English because that is literally how the grade boundaries are constructed, by definition 1/3 fail and yet we write off people’s lives if they fail. Interestingly some subjects don’t have grade boundaries that rely on normative grading.
We should really not be using GCSEs anymore given that students have to continue in education til 18 but failing that we should shift to using maths and literacy tests that are criterion-graded (meaning anyone who can do this thing passes).
Normative grading is horrible, imagine of we used it on medical training, would you want a shit doctor because he was the best in a bad cohort? Would you want someone to be denied the chance to be a doctor despite meeting the necessary criteria just because they came last in a class of super-geniuses?
It’s a pretty reasonable argument that if you can’t pass GCSE English/Maths you probably don’t belong at university.
We need to break out of the mindset that everyone should have a degree, it just serves to reduce the value and point of getting one in the first place and is the reason so many graduates struggle to enter the workforce.
Pass grade at GCSE is not a high barrier. I say this as someone who passed both and didn’t go to university.
24 comments
Why would I employ someone who failed English and maths as an apprentice?
So it’s sort the degrees out and dump the rest into apprenticeships ?
They frame this as a way to stop the rise in “mickey mouse” degrees, but it isn’t. It’s an attack on non-rich students who can only go to university with a loan.
I always see it this way; children do not fail the education system, the education system fails children.
I can accep the idea that someone should have to pass GCSE English/maths to be able to go to university, that’s not entirely senseless. But if that’s the case there should be LIFE LONG support for people to pass, however long it takes. If you can’t pass your GCSEs by 16 then you can keep trying until you do, and for free of course.
This move isn’t supportive; threats are no way to encourage better education. It’s a stick without a carrot and it improves nothing. It’s the classic “success is entirely down to hard work” ethos that underpins Tory bullshit. If you want to improve education, give us the resources to do so.
Edit: OK so maths, English and IT GCSEs are – according to [gov.uk](https://gov.uk) – “usually free” and if it’s not then you may be entitled to learning support funding. Still, I’d be interested to know how readily available and easily accessible it is. And it doesn’t dismiss the point that it is the responsibility of the school to ensure students don’t fail – and of course the responsibility of the government to fund schools to have the resources to meet their purpose.
I mean, odds on pupils who don’t have 5+ GCSE A-C (or whatever the numbering system is – talk about fixing what wasn’t broken) including English and Maths aren’t likely to apply for university anyway being as they likely aren’t going on to A-Levels which are the main prerequisite for university.
That said, if they DO go on to A-Level and actually do well, why stop them from going on to university to study subjects like philosophy, or English, or art or graphic design just because they got a D in Maths? I can’t imagine not being great at maths is a hindrance in those subjects.
I hope they make an exception for Deaf people. Many don’t speak/write English well and they still excel at university.
Is this how we get more working class white boys into uni?
People are getting into uni with no English or Maths GCSE anyway?
GCSE’s are an antiquated concept that need relegating to the dustbin of history.
We need Mastery based education. Similar to how we teach a musical instruments or a martial art. You work towards level one, then you have a pass/fail assessment that you can retake multiple times, shoring up your weaknesses. As you gain mastery your level increases until you’re grade 8 piano … or whatever.
People thrive under this kind of challenge/achievement ladder. Giving kids one shot, then branding them with a letter, is just nonsense. And curtails life opportunities. Bin the GCSE.
Soooooo
Somehow manage to fail Maths and English at GCSE level….
Think they somehow should go to uni.
Seems legit
Doing them a favour. Apprentice in a trade or self-teach something like programming. Within couple of years you’ll be making more than most Bachelors graduates can dream of and have none of the debt, whilst they won’t have even finished their degree yet lol.
So what this does is kneecap the children affected worst by the pandemic who are now struggling to keep up with school work
How did I know this sub would be complaining about this, a pass in English and Maths, or 2 **Es** at A-Level is an incredibly low bar to hit. Controversial opinion I know, but maybe students who utterly fail at both GCSE and A-Level shouldn’t be studying at University.
The amount of classist bastards in the comments worries me.
Pupils who do not pass GCSE English (or an equivalent) will struggle to write assignments at university (maths is obviously not necessary for many degrees). A better solution would be to make it easier and free to access post-secondary English courses that prepare students for academic writing. Academic writing is a skill that even those who do pass GCSE English struggle with, I have graded some work in the past and some have a poor standard of English. Rather than blocking immediate access, the government should instead provide more support to all pupils to want to attend through improved funding to further education.
Which unis are letting people in without an average grade in Maths or English?
I don’t even know where I stand. The whole poor kid gets no loans fallacy is ridiculous. I’m from a dirt poor family, I went to university. The whole system was designed to help me the poor kid and limited the funding for the rich kid so I don’t exactly understand the implication.
The focus needs to be on improving education standards.
The point being lost here is the monetisation of our children’s futures. The ‘American model’ of the indebting of young people who want to be educated to a higher degree no matter in what area. I am old enough to remember when education to higher degrees in this country was subsidised by a state that recognised the value of having a constant stream of highly educated citizens entering the workforce was a long term positive investment in our county’s future. It’s not that long ago. The current system is purely for the enrichment of a select few.
The replies to this are unbelievable. If you can’t pass English and maths (bear in mind an E is a pass), you don’t deserve to go to university, especially with public money.
Ok? This makes sense.
Far too many people who are unsuited for higher education are being pushed into it when they are not going to get any value out of it. This is a very very low bar to higher education.
This is incredibly cruel…there are so many undiagnosed kids or kids in abusive environments without the support they need already, shutting off loans for them is horrific.
I came from an extremely abusive (sexual, emotional, physical,, all the things) environment, I was made to care full time (couldn’t get a part time job, or see friends), for my extremely disabled sister. often I was up 2-6 times during the night contently looking after her. These things were not picked up on, I struggled in maths and english horribly.
I failed GCSE maths multiple times, (managed to scrape a pass in english) retook it during my A levels, still could not pass. Managed to get into uni (barely), first year tutors suggested I get tested, turns out I was dyslexic/dyspraxic and dyscalculic, got help/support, never went below a 2.1 in any work, came out with a first degree in business/history. University was my escape, a lifeline i’m so, so glad I had. now I know i’m not stupid, and I can thrive in a good environment, cutting kids off from this is so callous.
Still don’t have that maths GCSE.
This is cruel.
See I failed my Maths and English at school.
I now have a Masters Degree.
My failure at school was due to personal circumstances (I basically stopped attending year 11) and later I gained my Functional Skills at college alongside my Access Course.
No GSCE ≠ not able.
TF kinda comments are these, they somehow forget that A-levels and BTECs and foundation years still exist. Just cause you failed at 16 years old doesn’t mean you won’t make it to uni if you get your act together in sixth form
People here are missing a key factor; GCSEs are graded normatively. The grade boundaries are shifted so that the top 10% get above an 8 the top 20% get above a 7 and so on (these are not the actual specific numbers but the real numbers are essentially constructed like that).
One 3rd of GCSE students fail GCSE maths and English because that is literally how the grade boundaries are constructed, by definition 1/3 fail and yet we write off people’s lives if they fail. Interestingly some subjects don’t have grade boundaries that rely on normative grading.
We should really not be using GCSEs anymore given that students have to continue in education til 18 but failing that we should shift to using maths and literacy tests that are criterion-graded (meaning anyone who can do this thing passes).
Normative grading is horrible, imagine of we used it on medical training, would you want a shit doctor because he was the best in a bad cohort? Would you want someone to be denied the chance to be a doctor despite meeting the necessary criteria just because they came last in a class of super-geniuses?
It’s a pretty reasonable argument that if you can’t pass GCSE English/Maths you probably don’t belong at university.
We need to break out of the mindset that everyone should have a degree, it just serves to reduce the value and point of getting one in the first place and is the reason so many graduates struggle to enter the workforce.
Pass grade at GCSE is not a high barrier. I say this as someone who passed both and didn’t go to university.