I find it interesting that people would rank Ireland as having suffered more, or that the Indian Subcontinent benefited more, given the statistics and certain historical events. For example, Ireland’s life expectancy was consistently higher than India by a great margin. In 1910, it was 53 years which was similar to England (55). For India, it was 25-30 years.
Furthermore, while both Ireland and India’s partition experiences were painful, India’s was significantly more so and on a much wider scale in a region that was already besieged by a level of poverty not seen in Britain or Ireland.
Secondly, England benefiting from the empire is a debatable point. While it did contribute significantly to its economy, infrastructure and prestige, these were powered on the backs of working-class men, women and children who lived paycheck to paycheck, often couldn’t attend school, had no voting rights, were forced to go to war, and lived in filthy, overcrowded conditions with low-quality diets despite working long hours in dangerous factories and mines.
Not to mention they lived amongst significant environmental pollution which worsened the English population’s health. Patients who suffered from tuberculosis would travel to New Zealand if they could afford it, as its air quality was better and conducive to longterm recovery.
Simply put, much of British imperial wealth was enjoyed by an upper class minority in England, rather than the working class majority.
Lastly, I’m not quite sure why some people would like to have an Empire back. I personally would much rather live in 21st century Britain than its 19th century version. I don’t believe these people fully understand what life would have entailed for the average citizen back then.
While I wouldn’t go so far as to say the Empire is something to be “proud” of, I’m somewhat relieved the majority of people have taken up the position that we shouldn’t be *ashamed* of it either – self aggrandisement can be misplaced, for sure, but the opposite of that should be thoughtful consideration, not self flagellation.
I know I’ve rambled on about this before elsewhere on Reddit; but I think our modern obsession with boiling complex historical phenomena like the British Empire down to a few tub thumping (for the right)/guilt tripping (on the left) buzzwords is ultimately doing far more harm than good – and is far more about scoring culture war victory points than actually trying to grapple with 400+ years of complex and contradictory history.
The British, and English in particular, have never been forced to confront the horrors of the Empire. How many people know that the British allowed millions to die in India in the early twentieth century?
Germany was denazified, but the British polity has never been stripped of its fondness of its bloodsoaked Empire as a source of glory and pride.
Well I’m largely proud of the Empire. For a small island it’s an incredible success story. That being said, it should be taught balanced with both the pro’s and con’s for people to make their own minds up. But like all Empires of the past there are (by today’s standards) some shameful things it did, but that doesn’t mean the Empire’s didn’t bring about some incredible things, which the British Empire most certainly did! 🇬🇧
The English were central to the development and proliferation of the British Empire. They enslaved the poor and working classes of their own people first in addition to the Cymraegi, Scottish, Irish, Cornish peoples. They sent pauper class British people to work land, fight their wars, colonise, abuse and subjugate other poor peoples around the world.
Edit: why is it controversial that the British Empire and the English Empire before it was built on the back of pauper low class British people?
American here. It’s incredible how demoralized the UK has become. You all gave the world so much knowledge yet you’re ashamed of a handful of bad apples. Socialist and communist propaganda has made you all forget all the good the Empire has done for the world.
The Empire did great things, that is well known. Britain spread democracy to all different parts of the world, industrialised parts of the world and improved quality of life.
But the bad things most likely outweigh or at least match the good. Ireland is the best example, look at what it was just 50 years ago. India and Africa were exploited by Britain to no end.
What Britain needs to do now is keep close ties with the former colonies and help them grow, it would make up for what they did many years ago and build a positive legacy for the future.
I understand that we did a lot of damage to India and especially Africa with the Atlantic Slave Trade but we did stop it eventually and should never have started it in the first place. It took a while and we shouldn’t forget that we started it. Colonisation has no place in the modern world and most of those people are far right and people over 60.
I think it’s good that it’s pretty universal across the entire political spectrum that we should teach a balanced view of the empire. Lots of Brits clearly have a strong opinion on the empire but it seems like most want kids to come to a conclusion themselves.
Whilst I believe Britain had a net negative impact on the world, and the Empire largely sucked up wealth in colonies whilst subjecting the natives to horrific violence, especially if said country wanted independence, and dumped them on the Thames, and the infrastructure built was for the benefit of British capital, and natives were only given citizenship when they were needed for a war and then stripped of said rights the moment war was over… It’s not something I personally feel guilty for because it’s something I’m not responsible for. I do not claim ownership of the empire, so I do not hold responsibility for it.
it’s kinda funny to me how people are like “what we did in india and africa were awful, but canada is ok” bc in canada the empire just committed genocide against the indigenous populations and replaced them instead of enslaving/exploiting them etc in the same way. the fact that they were minimized enough as a population so as to be totally forgotten about by the global historical memory means that the general perception of the empire’s effects there skews more positive
How predictable that these views, as with basically every socially regressive idea are held by the people who were too old to have the internet shape their developing views, but too young to actually remember these things, how crap they were and what a struggle they were.
No offence to any 50+ people here, but your age group is COOKED and is probably going to doom us all.
Empire is a part of our history. It’s never coming back, but it’s not something wrong should Britain ashamed of. It had it’s benefits and problems in equal measure. Let’s all register what happened, but also register. None of us alive today had a hand in it. It’s in our past not in our future and we should take the lessons from it accordingly.
One thing I will die on a hill for is I am proud to be British, and there’s nothing wrong with being so.
How the flip do Australians and Kiwis not think they beneffited from the empire? They are the bloody empire. What are they going to do, come back? Perhaps the tiny proportion of natives would be pissed, but blimey!! Thats right up there with the Scots suddenly thinking they were the victims of colonialism and not bang at it as the perps!!
If you are British you should of course be proud of what your country has achieved on a world wide scale. I mean the list just goes on and on about what British people invented and created for the better of mankind.
Yes there were bad moments in history that we done but all countries have had their badtimes aswell. But let’s say Britain stayed home and all our inventions we kept secret and just used ourselves. Would we then still be bad because we don’t share our tools for a better world. Also who would of took England’s place and what do you imagine they will do different ? Maybe slavery would still be legal today and you may be on one of those ships reading this comment.
I’d say the colonies didn’t benefit much, but I’d also say that the UK didn’t benefit by as much as many often presume. The main benefit probably came from the structures the UK established to admistrate colonies rather than from riches stolen from those colonies.
the UK could have probably stolen much more if it had wanted to. The empire wasn’t perfect but was often benevolent.
It seems at best utterly obnoxious to be either about the Empire but certainly worse to be ‘proud’.
Evaluate that with which you had nothing to do but which you may have fiscally benefitted from in objective terms; taking guilt is an irresponsible self-centring of what should be simply acknowledging your intergenerational profit from others’ suffering and responding to it appropriately; taking pride in it is wilful self-aggrandisement and self-blinkering. Unless you personally were involved in building it, don’t take credit for it, and don’t act like it wasn’t a perpetrator of great evil for every great advancement that was achieved principally by means of the scale of infrastructure and investment possible only by those evil acts of exploitation. And if you’re from an historically working class family, you’re more the fool; your family was just a cog that profited little from the empire for the wealthy few.
I dont have anything to say to white supremacist idiots lurking here as British or American patriots. But if you are sane person, I believe you should know more about how devastating was British colonialism for India. There are lots of historical pieces available online. I just giving a link of a study did by Dylan Sullivan and Jason Hickel in 2022:
18 comments
My two cents –
I find it interesting that people would rank Ireland as having suffered more, or that the Indian Subcontinent benefited more, given the statistics and certain historical events. For example, Ireland’s life expectancy was consistently higher than India by a great margin. In 1910, it was 53 years which was similar to England (55). For India, it was 25-30 years.
Furthermore, while both Ireland and India’s partition experiences were painful, India’s was significantly more so and on a much wider scale in a region that was already besieged by a level of poverty not seen in Britain or Ireland.
Secondly, England benefiting from the empire is a debatable point. While it did contribute significantly to its economy, infrastructure and prestige, these were powered on the backs of working-class men, women and children who lived paycheck to paycheck, often couldn’t attend school, had no voting rights, were forced to go to war, and lived in filthy, overcrowded conditions with low-quality diets despite working long hours in dangerous factories and mines.
Not to mention they lived amongst significant environmental pollution which worsened the English population’s health. Patients who suffered from tuberculosis would travel to New Zealand if they could afford it, as its air quality was better and conducive to longterm recovery.
Simply put, much of British imperial wealth was enjoyed by an upper class minority in England, rather than the working class majority.
Lastly, I’m not quite sure why some people would like to have an Empire back. I personally would much rather live in 21st century Britain than its 19th century version. I don’t believe these people fully understand what life would have entailed for the average citizen back then.
While I wouldn’t go so far as to say the Empire is something to be “proud” of, I’m somewhat relieved the majority of people have taken up the position that we shouldn’t be *ashamed* of it either – self aggrandisement can be misplaced, for sure, but the opposite of that should be thoughtful consideration, not self flagellation.
I know I’ve rambled on about this before elsewhere on Reddit; but I think our modern obsession with boiling complex historical phenomena like the British Empire down to a few tub thumping (for the right)/guilt tripping (on the left) buzzwords is ultimately doing far more harm than good – and is far more about scoring culture war victory points than actually trying to grapple with 400+ years of complex and contradictory history.
The British, and English in particular, have never been forced to confront the horrors of the Empire. How many people know that the British allowed millions to die in India in the early twentieth century?
Germany was denazified, but the British polity has never been stripped of its fondness of its bloodsoaked Empire as a source of glory and pride.
Well I’m largely proud of the Empire. For a small island it’s an incredible success story. That being said, it should be taught balanced with both the pro’s and con’s for people to make their own minds up. But like all Empires of the past there are (by today’s standards) some shameful things it did, but that doesn’t mean the Empire’s didn’t bring about some incredible things, which the British Empire most certainly did! 🇬🇧
The English were central to the development and proliferation of the British Empire. They enslaved the poor and working classes of their own people first in addition to the Cymraegi, Scottish, Irish, Cornish peoples. They sent pauper class British people to work land, fight their wars, colonise, abuse and subjugate other poor peoples around the world.
Edit: why is it controversial that the British Empire and the English Empire before it was built on the back of pauper low class British people?
American here. It’s incredible how demoralized the UK has become. You all gave the world so much knowledge yet you’re ashamed of a handful of bad apples. Socialist and communist propaganda has made you all forget all the good the Empire has done for the world.
The Empire did great things, that is well known. Britain spread democracy to all different parts of the world, industrialised parts of the world and improved quality of life.
But the bad things most likely outweigh or at least match the good. Ireland is the best example, look at what it was just 50 years ago. India and Africa were exploited by Britain to no end.
What Britain needs to do now is keep close ties with the former colonies and help them grow, it would make up for what they did many years ago and build a positive legacy for the future.
I understand that we did a lot of damage to India and especially Africa with the Atlantic Slave Trade but we did stop it eventually and should never have started it in the first place. It took a while and we shouldn’t forget that we started it. Colonisation has no place in the modern world and most of those people are far right and people over 60.
I think it’s good that it’s pretty universal across the entire political spectrum that we should teach a balanced view of the empire. Lots of Brits clearly have a strong opinion on the empire but it seems like most want kids to come to a conclusion themselves.
Whilst I believe Britain had a net negative impact on the world, and the Empire largely sucked up wealth in colonies whilst subjecting the natives to horrific violence, especially if said country wanted independence, and dumped them on the Thames, and the infrastructure built was for the benefit of British capital, and natives were only given citizenship when they were needed for a war and then stripped of said rights the moment war was over… It’s not something I personally feel guilty for because it’s something I’m not responsible for. I do not claim ownership of the empire, so I do not hold responsibility for it.
it’s kinda funny to me how people are like “what we did in india and africa were awful, but canada is ok” bc in canada the empire just committed genocide against the indigenous populations and replaced them instead of enslaving/exploiting them etc in the same way. the fact that they were minimized enough as a population so as to be totally forgotten about by the global historical memory means that the general perception of the empire’s effects there skews more positive
How predictable that these views, as with basically every socially regressive idea are held by the people who were too old to have the internet shape their developing views, but too young to actually remember these things, how crap they were and what a struggle they were.
No offence to any 50+ people here, but your age group is COOKED and is probably going to doom us all.
Empire is a part of our history. It’s never coming back, but it’s not something wrong should Britain ashamed of. It had it’s benefits and problems in equal measure. Let’s all register what happened, but also register. None of us alive today had a hand in it. It’s in our past not in our future and we should take the lessons from it accordingly.
One thing I will die on a hill for is I am proud to be British, and there’s nothing wrong with being so.
How the flip do Australians and Kiwis not think they beneffited from the empire? They are the bloody empire. What are they going to do, come back? Perhaps the tiny proportion of natives would be pissed, but blimey!! Thats right up there with the Scots suddenly thinking they were the victims of colonialism and not bang at it as the perps!!
If you are British you should of course be proud of what your country has achieved on a world wide scale. I mean the list just goes on and on about what British people invented and created for the better of mankind.
Yes there were bad moments in history that we done but all countries have had their badtimes aswell. But let’s say Britain stayed home and all our inventions we kept secret and just used ourselves. Would we then still be bad because we don’t share our tools for a better world. Also who would of took England’s place and what do you imagine they will do different ? Maybe slavery would still be legal today and you may be on one of those ships reading this comment.
I’d say the colonies didn’t benefit much, but I’d also say that the UK didn’t benefit by as much as many often presume. The main benefit probably came from the structures the UK established to admistrate colonies rather than from riches stolen from those colonies.
the UK could have probably stolen much more if it had wanted to. The empire wasn’t perfect but was often benevolent.
It seems at best utterly obnoxious to be either about the Empire but certainly worse to be ‘proud’.
Evaluate that with which you had nothing to do but which you may have fiscally benefitted from in objective terms; taking guilt is an irresponsible self-centring of what should be simply acknowledging your intergenerational profit from others’ suffering and responding to it appropriately; taking pride in it is wilful self-aggrandisement and self-blinkering. Unless you personally were involved in building it, don’t take credit for it, and don’t act like it wasn’t a perpetrator of great evil for every great advancement that was achieved principally by means of the scale of infrastructure and investment possible only by those evil acts of exploitation. And if you’re from an historically working class family, you’re more the fool; your family was just a cog that profited little from the empire for the wealthy few.
I dont have anything to say to white supremacist idiots lurking here as British or American patriots. But if you are sane person, I believe you should know more about how devastating was British colonialism for India. There are lots of historical pieces available online. I just giving a link of a study did by Dylan Sullivan and Jason Hickel in 2022:
[How British colonialism killed 100 million Indians in 40 years](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2022/12/2/how-british-colonial-policy-killed-100-million-indians)
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