It has nothing to do with transgender rights or anything else, it’s basically to do with the same issues as doping in sport.
We don’t allow doping because it allows someone to derive an unfair advantage over other athletes by the use of drugs. Transgender athletes have spent many years using one of the most incredibly powerful performance enhancing drugs in existence (testosterone) which fundamentally alters their physical development in many ways, including musculature, the fundamental layout of bone structure, etc.
It is not possible to reverse these advantages : even after transition they confer a permanent and irrevocable advantage over anyone who *hasn’t* spent many years under the same conditions.
So while it is not by any means their *fault*, it’s simply unfair on their others with whom they are competing. And in the absence of any way to make it fair, it should not be allowed.
I think if you transition, you’re a woman/man in my eyes and should be in the eyes of society but you should have to give up elite level sports. There’s undeniable physical differences between sexes and that’s not going to change.
While we as society are far more open to diversity and equality, it’s stuff like this that pushes the envelope and risks undoing all the work people have done looking for equality and recognition over the years.
We want fairness in all aspects of life. When we can see something like this that’s clearly unfair and then rewarded, it becomes so much harder for people to accept.
People who speak out about this kind of thing then risk being “cancelled” because of it.
Have to agree with Sonia. I fully accept we can be born in the wrong body. All sorts can happen in the womb. But competing is just a no no. But as a trans person they also must know this?
It’s either selfish on their behave or it’s part of transition. Mentally they feel the are that sex that I can compete.
I respect any individuals right to live their life on their own terms, I’ll refer to them how they want to be referred to also. I have no problems with that as long as they aren’t doing anything to harm me.
But I just don’t think any amount of hormone therapy can change things like bone density, lungs and limbs which are naturally larger in males. In sports like swimming this is inherently just not fair. Not transphobic or anything, it is a biological fact… sucks that we have to feel we have to tiptoe around things like this.
It goes without saying but be careful in this thread
If you disagree with Sonia, you’ve clearly never competed in any sport at any level. We should and can accept trans, but at elite level sports it should never and can never happen.
If anyone is interested and wants to know more about this topic I’d recommend giving them a listen. Its science-based but still easy to understand.
If a trans-woman competing in woman’s sport didn’t matter then why do we divide all sport based on sex in the first place? Anyone who argues that it’s fair are doing some serious mental gymnastics.
Is there any sport where the women’s variant competes at a higher level than the men’s?
South park writer really hit it on the nail.
Paralympic games have different levels based on different body abilities and we don’t complain
Why not introduce the Trans category in traditional Olympics
1 for M2F and one for F2M
If you go through puberty as a male, you should be banned for life competing against women.
Believe what you want to believe, but a man going from being ranked #400+ in the NCAA and then transitioning to a woman who ends up being ranked #1 and winning championships and setting records, says all you fucking need to know. If you still deny it gives them an advantage, then you are just lying to yourself, or you are stupid, take your pick. You won’t believe ANY evidence, no matter how compelling, and are just looking for anything to confirm your biases. Like a fucking Q believer.
If you truly believe in fairness and equality, you cannot support such people competing with people born biologically female.
How is this even a thing? I’m as liberal as they come but this is nuts. If anything it violates women’s rights. Well, not rights, but it’s still not right. The popular support for this must be ridiculously low.
Gender is Social construct.
Biological sex isn’t.
This isn’t an opinion on anything. Just stating facts.
Could we just have a third category called Open? Just have everybody compete in different weight categories. Then who fucking cares what gender you are?
I think it’s unfair to the other people in the race.
If there are 10 people in the race, for the sake of inclusion of 1, 9 are being treated unfairly.
There are so many initiatives to try and increase womens sports participation, which I fully support as sport and healthy living has many great benefits. And things like this just make a circus of things.
You should have the full right to change sex if you want, but if you do you lose the right to compete against women in national/international level of competition. It’s really nothing more complex than that.
Heather Swanson wants to know her location.
Dafuq are these arms
I’m curious as to what everyone thinks of transgender male athletes because I think everyone forgets about them. I’m not saying this to be cheeky but if ftm men were forced to compete alongside women, that would be even more unfair.
I think it’s funny/not funny that men can be better women than women. What a joke this world is.
The old saying “Life isn’t fair” was never so apt. It strikes me that no matter what the decision someone is being unfairly treated. I would not for any money want to be on the governing body of a sporting organisation for the next few years.
As a trans woman I couldn’t agree more, trans women don’t belong in cis women’s sports.
It’s clearly unfair, and it makes the rest of us look bad.
I realize that there are things like muscle atrophy with HRT, and I have that myself, but I could still wreck mys sister in any form of physical activity, despite the fac tthat she has a much more active lifestyle than me.
Just deal with it and do somehting else with your life. You get to magically change your body to look like you fele inside. You’re just gonna have to give up competitive sports.
If it were to be even remotley fair, a transwoman would have had to get androgen blockers from the onset of puberty, so no male muscles or bone structure got to evolve. Until then, knock it off. You’re not really winning anyway and you’re giving the haters ammunition to attack the rest of us.
It feels like 90% of all people are totally against it, yet somehow it manages to still happen.
Easiest way around this is get rid of male/female sports categories and instead have x/y chromosome categories. Bring it to an undeniable dna level of separation.
It see that a lot of people believe hormone therapy is going to level the playing field. It’s as if people believe male muscle mass and testosterone is the only advantage men have in sport. Well it isn’t. Muscle mass and testosterone is just two of the advantages, and in reality plays a supporting role to other advantages in why men have a distinct biological advantage when it comes to sport specifically. It’s just a fact of life when it comes to most sport. Disregarding clear scientific evidence like this is dishonest. It falls in directly the same area as pseudoscience.
You can have all the hormone therapy you want, but it won’t take away the following advantages:
-size of hands: larger hands can grip better, carry more and carry heavier. In throwing sports this is a huge advantage; to be able to have a better grip. In swimming, bigger hands generate more speed as you can displace more water, giving you more momentum and making your swimming more proficient. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the size of a person’s hands.
-size of feet: similar to large hands, you generate more momentum because you displace more water for the same amount of energy spent. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the size of a person’s feet.
-length of limbs: longer limbs mean more distance covered for the same amount of energy spent. Longer arms helps you generate more speed when throwing something, like javelin and ball sports. Longer arms mean you hit a tennis ball, baseball, golf ball with more speed, thus further. Longer legs mean you jump further and higher with the same amount of energy spent. Ffs, some male high jumpers are taller than the women’s Olympic record. You kick a ball further, harder and at a faster speed. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the length of a person’s limbs.
-skeletal structure: male skeletons are larger by default, able to carry heavier loads, have less injuries and sustain impacts more. The larger surface and larger structure of male bones provide them with a greater leverage, and a wider frame on which to support muscle and other muscle tissue. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the size of a person’s skeleton.
-hip size: together with skeletal structure, men have smaller hips. It helps tremendously in speedy movement in sports, and maintain dynamic stability and resist internal rotation in the transverse plane throughout an athletic movement to remain injury free. In swimming it reduces drag (yes yes, this is the one where women are going to lose it 😉
-lung size/oxygen carrying capacity: fitness is measured by maximum oxygen consumption which measures the capacity to transport and use oxygen during sport. Male athletes have a higher oxygen carrying capacity than women athletes, which allows them to reach their maximum peak earlier. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the size of a person’s lungs.
This is not all. There are more. But hey, ya’ll go ahead and believe hormone therapy will level the playing field.
29 comments
Yea she’s right.
It’s fucking stupid & unfair.
I tend to agree with this.
It has nothing to do with transgender rights or anything else, it’s basically to do with the same issues as doping in sport.
We don’t allow doping because it allows someone to derive an unfair advantage over other athletes by the use of drugs. Transgender athletes have spent many years using one of the most incredibly powerful performance enhancing drugs in existence (testosterone) which fundamentally alters their physical development in many ways, including musculature, the fundamental layout of bone structure, etc.
It is not possible to reverse these advantages : even after transition they confer a permanent and irrevocable advantage over anyone who *hasn’t* spent many years under the same conditions.
So while it is not by any means their *fault*, it’s simply unfair on their others with whom they are competing. And in the absence of any way to make it fair, it should not be allowed.
I think if you transition, you’re a woman/man in my eyes and should be in the eyes of society but you should have to give up elite level sports. There’s undeniable physical differences between sexes and that’s not going to change.
While we as society are far more open to diversity and equality, it’s stuff like this that pushes the envelope and risks undoing all the work people have done looking for equality and recognition over the years.
We want fairness in all aspects of life. When we can see something like this that’s clearly unfair and then rewarded, it becomes so much harder for people to accept.
People who speak out about this kind of thing then risk being “cancelled” because of it.
Have to agree with Sonia. I fully accept we can be born in the wrong body. All sorts can happen in the womb. But competing is just a no no. But as a trans person they also must know this?
It’s either selfish on their behave or it’s part of transition. Mentally they feel the are that sex that I can compete.
I respect any individuals right to live their life on their own terms, I’ll refer to them how they want to be referred to also. I have no problems with that as long as they aren’t doing anything to harm me.
But I just don’t think any amount of hormone therapy can change things like bone density, lungs and limbs which are naturally larger in males. In sports like swimming this is inherently just not fair. Not transphobic or anything, it is a biological fact… sucks that we have to feel we have to tiptoe around things like this.
It goes without saying but be careful in this thread
If you disagree with Sonia, you’ve clearly never competed in any sport at any level. We should and can accept trans, but at elite level sports it should never and can never happen.
The only work around is to have more categories:
Male,
Female,
Trans male,
Trans female.
The [Science of Sport Podcast](https://open.spotify.com/show/3g71AuFYy6FnYHEI1GO9A0?si=8_lC-UcSSKykbngTX-WXBQ)
has done some really good discussions on this and other similar topics in sport.
If anyone is interested and wants to know more about this topic I’d recommend giving them a listen. Its science-based but still easy to understand.
If a trans-woman competing in woman’s sport didn’t matter then why do we divide all sport based on sex in the first place? Anyone who argues that it’s fair are doing some serious mental gymnastics.
Is there any sport where the women’s variant competes at a higher level than the men’s?
South park writer really hit it on the nail.
Paralympic games have different levels based on different body abilities and we don’t complain
Why not introduce the Trans category in traditional Olympics
1 for M2F and one for F2M
If you go through puberty as a male, you should be banned for life competing against women.
Believe what you want to believe, but a man going from being ranked #400+ in the NCAA and then transitioning to a woman who ends up being ranked #1 and winning championships and setting records, says all you fucking need to know. If you still deny it gives them an advantage, then you are just lying to yourself, or you are stupid, take your pick. You won’t believe ANY evidence, no matter how compelling, and are just looking for anything to confirm your biases. Like a fucking Q believer.
If you truly believe in fairness and equality, you cannot support such people competing with people born biologically female.
How is this even a thing? I’m as liberal as they come but this is nuts. If anything it violates women’s rights. Well, not rights, but it’s still not right. The popular support for this must be ridiculously low.
Gender is Social construct.
Biological sex isn’t.
This isn’t an opinion on anything. Just stating facts.
Could we just have a third category called Open? Just have everybody compete in different weight categories. Then who fucking cares what gender you are?
I think it’s unfair to the other people in the race.
If there are 10 people in the race, for the sake of inclusion of 1, 9 are being treated unfairly.
There are so many initiatives to try and increase womens sports participation, which I fully support as sport and healthy living has many great benefits. And things like this just make a circus of things.
You should have the full right to change sex if you want, but if you do you lose the right to compete against women in national/international level of competition. It’s really nothing more complex than that.
Heather Swanson wants to know her location.
Dafuq are these arms
I’m curious as to what everyone thinks of transgender male athletes because I think everyone forgets about them. I’m not saying this to be cheeky but if ftm men were forced to compete alongside women, that would be even more unfair.
I think it’s funny/not funny that men can be better women than women. What a joke this world is.
The old saying “Life isn’t fair” was never so apt. It strikes me that no matter what the decision someone is being unfairly treated. I would not for any money want to be on the governing body of a sporting organisation for the next few years.
As a trans woman I couldn’t agree more, trans women don’t belong in cis women’s sports.
It’s clearly unfair, and it makes the rest of us look bad.
I realize that there are things like muscle atrophy with HRT, and I have that myself, but I could still wreck mys sister in any form of physical activity, despite the fac tthat she has a much more active lifestyle than me.
Just deal with it and do somehting else with your life. You get to magically change your body to look like you fele inside. You’re just gonna have to give up competitive sports.
If it were to be even remotley fair, a transwoman would have had to get androgen blockers from the onset of puberty, so no male muscles or bone structure got to evolve. Until then, knock it off. You’re not really winning anyway and you’re giving the haters ammunition to attack the rest of us.
It feels like 90% of all people are totally against it, yet somehow it manages to still happen.
There is an interesting article about this topic in The Economist: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/03/19/sports-should-have-two-categories-open-and-female
Easiest way around this is get rid of male/female sports categories and instead have x/y chromosome categories. Bring it to an undeniable dna level of separation.
It see that a lot of people believe hormone therapy is going to level the playing field. It’s as if people believe male muscle mass and testosterone is the only advantage men have in sport. Well it isn’t. Muscle mass and testosterone is just two of the advantages, and in reality plays a supporting role to other advantages in why men have a distinct biological advantage when it comes to sport specifically. It’s just a fact of life when it comes to most sport. Disregarding clear scientific evidence like this is dishonest. It falls in directly the same area as pseudoscience.
You can have all the hormone therapy you want, but it won’t take away the following advantages:
-size of hands: larger hands can grip better, carry more and carry heavier. In throwing sports this is a huge advantage; to be able to have a better grip. In swimming, bigger hands generate more speed as you can displace more water, giving you more momentum and making your swimming more proficient. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the size of a person’s hands.
-size of feet: similar to large hands, you generate more momentum because you displace more water for the same amount of energy spent. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the size of a person’s feet.
-length of limbs: longer limbs mean more distance covered for the same amount of energy spent. Longer arms helps you generate more speed when throwing something, like javelin and ball sports. Longer arms mean you hit a tennis ball, baseball, golf ball with more speed, thus further. Longer legs mean you jump further and higher with the same amount of energy spent. Ffs, some male high jumpers are taller than the women’s Olympic record. You kick a ball further, harder and at a faster speed. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the length of a person’s limbs.
-skeletal structure: male skeletons are larger by default, able to carry heavier loads, have less injuries and sustain impacts more. The larger surface and larger structure of male bones provide them with a greater leverage, and a wider frame on which to support muscle and other muscle tissue. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the size of a person’s skeleton.
-hip size: together with skeletal structure, men have smaller hips. It helps tremendously in speedy movement in sports, and maintain dynamic stability and resist internal rotation in the transverse plane throughout an athletic movement to remain injury free. In swimming it reduces drag (yes yes, this is the one where women are going to lose it 😉
-lung size/oxygen carrying capacity: fitness is measured by maximum oxygen consumption which measures the capacity to transport and use oxygen during sport. Male athletes have a higher oxygen carrying capacity than women athletes, which allows them to reach their maximum peak earlier. No matter how much hormone therapy you go through, you can’t reduce the size of a person’s lungs.
This is not all. There are more. But hey, ya’ll go ahead and believe hormone therapy will level the playing field.