PBP today initiated a bill to insert military neutrality into the Irish constitution by referendum. It’s more important now than ever that Ireland upholds the tradition of opposition to imperial wars & militarism. This tradition goes back to James Connolly, 1916 rebels & the Irish revolution.
34 comments
Traditions change.
Something is not good simply because it is old, any more than it is good simply because it is new.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but those rebels he talking about, would they be same ones that started two armed conflicts rather than wait for political means?
It’s all well and good being neutral until some major super power decides to land in Shannon and kick the shit out of us. We run crying for help to the US and UK then. We must align ourselves and do our part otherwise we run around the ankles of giants afraid of everything. Hell we BUILT half the country of the United States and other than the Germans are the primary ethnicity that makes up that country. America adores Ireland, we should be proud to support them too.
Appeal to tradition is a common fallacy in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it is correlated with some past or present tradition, which is an incredibly dumb way to decide global policies.
I’m definitely voting no now.
Means nothing.
Absolutely nothing, a constitutionally neutral country needs to be able to defend and deter attack on its borders and from its airspace without allies.
This political maneuver would be the equivalent of a person who is being mugged at gunpoint suddenly saying “you can’t hurt me I’ve a magical forcefield” sure it might momentarily confuse the assailant but within seconds you will either be carrying out their wishes at gunpoint our you will be dead.
1916? Neutral?
Remind me – who exactly were “our gallant allies in Europe”?
I don’t want a referendum on this and I’d vote no. Not sure how it works with the EU common defence treaty and I don’t think they are going to tolerate any more opt-outs from Ireland on this.
We can’t pretend that we aren’t dependent on America. We are intrinsically intertwined.
So called neutrality is a fairly silly concept when we have no means to defend ourselves and instead rely on our former coloniser to come to our aid.
I wish I could just never see this man ever again.
I was somewhat on the fence on neutrality until I saw PBP were using it to score political points.
He’s a dose.
Great, but first maybe work on defining exactly what “military neutrality” actually means. It isn’t exactly black and white.
Making us constitutionally bound to neutrality means we’d actually have to legally define it.
Right now we’re neutral in name only. If we want to enshrine our current arrangement in the constitution it would mean adding in a statement that has no real meaning. Not only is this pointless, it significantly lowers the bar for future amendments.
Either that or we make a constitutional commitment to actually becoming neutral which is something most people don’t actually want, even if they think they’re in favour of neutrality.
Do we really want a situation where our government is legally forbidden to criticise Russia or Israel, because that could well be the consequences a constitutional commitment to neutrality.
Fortunately no party that’s interested in entering government is interested in this.
Made a post about the irish air Corp earlier and how incapable they are and people got very offended, comical to read the comments of people trying to make out that they are capable of defending the airspace, we have a defense agreement with the RAF for a reason
Has James Connolly been elevated to status of patron saint, prophet or God? The guy was in charge of 200 men, Patrick Pearse was the leader of the Easter rising.
We’re only neutral cause we couldn’t fight our way out of a wet paper bag!
PBP are going to oppose imperial wars by…what exactly? Asking folks like Hitler and Putin to stop and be nice?
Pretty sure that’s been tried.
Why do the PBP seem to think they are always on the moral high ground when it’s a subjective thing as to where the high ground is / how it’s defined. Sick of them looking down on people with other opinions. They can fuck right off with their bullshit
Let’s be frank: constitutionally mandated neutrality won’t honestly change anything in practice. There is just no public desire to increase military spending and our military is too small to be anything but neutral for practical purposes.
HOWEVER, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the PBP just so happens to propose a constitutional amendment to oppose involvement in foreign wars as the EU unites behind the United States to oppose Russia’s war of conquest, an issue PBP’s fellow irrelevant leftists across the world have found themselves on the wrong side of.
No. Times change and we change with them. We are not neutral. We do not meet the 1907 Hague treaty on neutrality. Imposing sanctions on Russia makes us not neutral. Supplying the allies with info in WW2 made us not neutral. Allowing the yanks to use Shannon airport for their middle east bombing runs makes us not neutral.
Military neutrality is a term not legally defined or recognised anywhere, and is an excuse to pay our defence forces properly or invest in basic military equipment. Can you believe if an airplane turns off it’s transponder Ireland as a country has no idea where that plane is? Utter insanity.
I personanlly believe we should (a) pay our defence forces properly. Become more involved in european defence, that way we can make sure our voice is heard. Move to LO3 from the recent report. Invest in a radar system so we as a country can see what is in our airspace. We also need to massively increase our cyber security, that is the new battleground of the 21st century.
If we were to invest in more traditional arms, I would suggest navy and airforce, with lots of drones, given our geography.
Not withstanding the last section above, the reasons I have listed would ensure I vote against this proposed constitutional amendment, assuming it doesn’t get defeated at 2nd stage.
For the love of fuck, can we vote all these cunts out. Boyd Barrett, Mick Wallace, Clare Daly.. Embarrassing cunts the lot of them.
I’d vote no. We’re not neutral, we’re militarily agnostic and incapable. If one of our EU allies was attacked, we would be unable to help them if we set this in our constitution. Fuck that.
The only sort of neutrality I think is reasonable or sane for Ireland to maintain is the same sort of neutrality held by Switzerland, Finland et al – armed neutrality. Joining NATO because of Imperialist powers is no different to relying on those same powers for our entire defence – we should be, to at least a reasonable degree given our economic base, self-sufficient.
However, I do think a slow and gradual shift towards NOT being Neutral but instead being a small military power who defends western democracy, either as part of NATO, the EU, or some other theoretical smaller alliance, is the moral and proper approach. If Russia start World War 3 by inflicting some (another. Straw, camels back, etc) horrific crime tomorrow, I will feel pretty embarrassed to be a citizen of a neutral country in such a case – a war against Russia right now is the biggest anti-imperialist cause we could ever hope to take part in since the founding of our state and to stand back whilst other (smaller and larger, Estonia 1.3m pop.) countries fight the good fight whilst we sit gawking at RTE news every evening hoping for it to blow over is despicable.
For PBP (who I usually agree with) to call the UK, USA and Germany Imperialist powers IN THIS CONTEXT is fucking absurd. Right now, they’re the worlds best opportunity to defend against Russia should shit hit the fan.
Elements of the Irish Left like Boyd Barrett, Paul Murphy and Catherine Connolly’s focus on NATO comes across as tone deaf to me at a time when Russia is engaging in imperialist aggression against a neutral country.
It’s like they’re so welded to their concept of US=bad that they can’t fathom a scenario where it isn’t a major cause of a conflict.
This is a really stupid bit of showboating, even by there standards.
I mean, we’re not neutral in the eyes of Russia or China. If they decide to attack Britain or Europe then we will be targeted. We shouldn’t have to rely on the protection of UK and USA to pretend we are neutral.
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men or women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must – at that moment – become the center of the universe.”
Elie Wiesel, Nobel Prize acceptance speech.
The 1916 rebels and the Irish war of independence actively sided with opposing World powers against the British.
Literally the opposite of neutrality.
You cannot ask for handout from other Europeans if you are not willing to defend a European from an invader.
You cannot reap the benefits of a union and balk at the idea 9f defending it, thats called being a cunt.
So I ask you Ireland, are we a bunch of cunts ?
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”
We need to be able to call out wrongdoing and take appropriate action.
If you “oppose imperialism” while turning your back on the largest imperialist project in Europe since the Warsaw Pact, you’re a tool.
Politically, this is probably the worst time possible for him to push this. Regardless of what you think about it, there’s no way in hell this has any traction while Russia is invading and murdering civilians in a sovereign nation.
Damn, they really are committed to torching what little god will they have left. As someone whose social circle is very left leaning I don’t think PBP is going to get in again any time soon.