I am very supportive of the rights of transgender people, but can someone explain to me how someone like Lia Thomas doesn’t have an advantage over someone who was born biologically female?
Watching sport and caring about women being able to fairly compete aren’t the same. While I don’t watch any sport, I’m glad it exists for people who enjoy it.
You don’t have to be directly involved in something to say there is injustice in it.
What a disingenuous asshole. If she actually cared about women’s sport she would see the obvious unfairness involved.
This whole debate threatens to import the ongoing panic around trans people in the UK. The tone of the discourse seems to presume trans people are a far more privileged group then they are.
[deleted]
Thats like saying I cant care about something controversial or important thats happening in a table tennis tournament becuase I have never gone to watch a game?
I wouldn’t cross the road for swimming full stop, but still wouldn’t disregard legitimate concerns of people who are avid swim fans by implying that any issue they may have can be dismissed as little more than bigotry.
I’ve been a fan of women’s mma for years now and I’m a little bit tired of people who wouldn’t cross the road for women’s mma, or any combat sport for that matter, who are now upset by people who support these athletes having little appetite for watching Angela Lee having to fight against somebody who was born a biological male, anymore than they would care to see her step in the cage with Israel Adesanya.
Aoife Martin and her cheerleaders don’t have some kind of exclusive patent on getting upset. I get that it’s well intentioned, but it is also really dismissive of the concerns of female athletes competing in certain sports, particularly ones where they could be crippled or killed.
I would be interested in how many Women’s sports events Aoife Martin has attended, seeing as her opinion seems to be the only one that matters.
If you were born a male and went through puberty you shouldn’t be competing against females
I don’t watch women’s sports but I can still care about equality in sports as a whole.
Sports should be segregated on sex, not identity.
Perpetuating the narrative that anyone who has a contrary opinion or even tries to debate the issue of trans athletes is transphobic.
So are those of us who give up our time to coach women’s sports teams. Trans women have a biological advantage over non trans. The advantage is so great that depending on the sport it could be a danger to non trans women.
Discrimination against people suffering from gender dysphoria is awful and something that we should not tolerate as a society. It is a serious medical condition and those faced with it should be given the best health care solutions we could give them.
However, biological women have their own sports leagues and associations because there is quite clearly biological difference between men and women that create massive differences in athletic potential.
The fact that there is biological differences between men and women is uncomfortable for some trans activists, which is why many are comically being publicly unable to answer the question ‘what is a woman?’ or being able to define the word ‘woman’.
Having biological males who suffer from gender dysphoria and now live as women competing against biological females who have never felt the effects of significant levels of testosterone, exogenous or not, is grossly unfair at best and fatally dangerous at worst.
Your rights, trans or not, end when they encroach on anyone else’s rights. Women fought hard for the right to compete on a fair playing ground in sports and that is being taken away in the name of equality.
Trans leagues are the answer. There should also be leagues that allow for doping, for pretty much the same reason.
Trans activists are not sporting nor endocrine experts, nor are they child welfare experts. Their ability to be offended and to weaponise against any dissent should not trump the safety nor rights of others, but it is.
The rate at which young girls are identifying as trans is frightening and something that should be studied carefully. This is not a good outcome, nor should it be celebrated or encouraged. It should be treated seriously and avoided if possible in the same way that a cancer diagnosis is. Data indicate that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth.
Unfortunately, this same infallible podium trans activists have been given means that even attempts of psychiatric counselling distressed children in the hope of avoiding this diagnosis and lifelong medical treatment can be labelled as transphobic ‘conversion therapy’ and you’re a bigot for supporting this obviously necessary attempt at expert medical intervention for vulnerable children.
Calling someone a bigot does not mean you’re correct, nor that the person is a bigot.
Unfortunately, a loud minority has been led to the belief that this is a valid form of activism through the cowardice of our society.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdT1PvJDRo4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdT1PvJDRo4) This person offers counterarguments to a lot of the stuff in this thread. please be respectful but consider watching if you want a contrary opinion with supporting evidence
Am I right in saying she can still compete in the open category….aka mens category?
Not trying to be an asshole but it’s not like she was winning any medals as a man so if she just wants to swim for the sake of it then just continue as you are in the open category?
I suppose that would give her an unfair disadvantage against the men but then again that’s probably how the women feel when she swims against them in their category…..
Complete nonsense as usual from The Journal. They are quickly becoming the Independent.
It’s well documented that men actually watch more womens sports than women do.
This person has had YEARS of testosterone flowing through their cells, they have different biomechanics, different muscle fibres/bones and more oxygenated blood in their body.
It doesn’t just come down to her current test levels.
Biological men will ALWAYS have a distinct advantage over women in most sports, therefore they should not be allowed complete in womens competitions. It’s completely nonsensical, it’s ridiculous and biological women are the only people who lose out.
Don’t come at me with your “that’s transphobic” nonsense. It’s not. It’s science, it’s biology and it’s facts.
Comparing a trans woman who was absolutely terrible in the mens rankings to a female world record holder and then saying “why are you complaining she didn’t break any records” is the most pathetic sentence in that article.
There are plenty of men competing in other womens sports who are breaking records and it’s unbelievably unfair.
How you can call yourself a journalist while writing complete shite like that is beyond me.
Live your life whatever way you want but your sex should always determine your entry to professional competitions and you can’t change your sex.
Downvote away 😂
I haven’t followed this story seriously but isn’t the main Irish person opposing this Sonia O’Sullivan? She’s done a lot more than cross the road for women’s sport.
Could I just say on behalf of myself ( and myself only) that as a woman of 5ft 8ins tall, quite fit and still competitive in a few contact sports, that I’m not nor was I ever strong enough to compete against a man. I have the utmost respect for trans people and everybody’s right to live as they feel comfortable but it is an unfair advantage in some sports. This is just my opinion.
You can have inclusion. You can have fairness. You can’t have both.
She’s shoehorning a connection that isn’t there. You don’t have to be a fan of women’s sports to understand that trans women have a natural advantage.
You can have inclusion or fairness. Pick one.
Sometimes i feel like people who insist on trans competing in womens sports dont even watch said sports either. Because if you actually do care for women sports you would not be saying this things. Equality towards trans in sports leads to severe disadvantage to biological women.
Problem is, if you try to nake this point they woukd lavel you transphobic.
I wouldn’t sleep with a man but that doesn’t mean I don’t support lgbt rights. Not really a good argument.
Don’t have to watch a sport to be supportive of women in sport.
Gatekeeping, pure and simple. “You can’t support the opinions of the oppressed because you don’t pay to watch them compete.”
Fuck off, already. I don’t have to like the sport to support a position.
She is a fucking idiot then.
The argument, and I’m not saying it isn’t valid because it 100% is and is the truth, is that sex and gender are separate things, which they are. But if even proponates can recognize that BIOLOGICALLY the sexes are different then why can they not realize that BIOLOGY gives a huge advantage to trans female athletes. (Which 100% they are women) and a DISADVANTAGE to trans male athletes. People have understood this for generations it’s why males and females compete separately in the first place. It is true that Trans women ARE women but it is simultaneously ALSO true that they would have an advantage over cis-female athletes.
I don’t care about women’s boxing, but I don’t like the idea of some former dude cracking a genetic female’s skull just so some politician can keep up with the latest cultural trend.
No. I actually don’t “care” in the sense that you think I do.
I just laugh. Because you reap what you sow
This is gonna lead down a road where Aoife will need to share a toilet area with a bloke after a night on the Guinness.
Trans females who are biologically men shouldn’t compete with females. Anyone who think otherwise is an asshat.
I’m all for trans people living their best lives and wish all of them happiness. But no way is this fair. You aren’t entitled to be able to compete in competitive sports especially at a high level. Tons of people are born with other medical conditions that prevent them from playing. If you’re trans sorry luck of the draw you aren’t able to compete. Everyone isn’t entitled to do every activity that’s just not possible.
And all those clever comments still don’t change the simple fact that it’s competitively unfair.
I couldn’t give 2 shits about soccer but I do care that FIFA is corrupt and hosting World Cups in countries where slave labor is being used to build stadiums.
I’m sure there are a lot of people who couldn’t care less about American football but were nonetheless upset about how unfairly Colin Kaepernick was being treated.
I’m sure 2 months ago there were many people in the world who never gave a 2nd thought about Russo-Ukrainian politics but are still upset that Russia is invading.
Just because you’re not a fan of something doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to engage with an opinion on the matter or push for change when there is an injustice being perpetrated.
“Those who wouldn’t cross the road for Ukraine are now upset by Russians in Ukraine.”
Well… yeah. It wasn’t previously being taken over by a small group of overpowered outsiders. Now that’s what is currently in process. Most women in sport and most Ukrainians would like for the overpowered outsiders to stop taking over and most reasonable observers support that.
Straw man.
It’s generally only people that are in, have been in, or have daughters currently in women’s sports who are concerned about this.
And generally people agree that trans women have an advantage and shouldn’t be competing as women while also supporting their right to choose how they wish to present themselves.
Doesnt matter if its popular or not, its about being fair. Which she doesnt talk about….
I didn’t care about the Boston marathon, am I entitled to the opinion that blowing up bombs there was bad?
Like yeah, a lot of people didn’t really care and now that something clearly bad is happening, they do.
Did you care about ukraine before putin invaded? Like, you can’t care about every issue all the time, but you can protest something that is just clearly wrong when it happens.
Thomas swam competitively through high school at a state level as a male, and people are that deluded to think it’s ok for them to now swim as a woman?
If that’s trans rights then I’m actively against it.
The concept of equality has been bastardised into something truly grotesque and illogical.
The article really ignoring the facts men have a advantage in physical strength for the most part
I am shocked that this is actually a conversation. Nearly everyone in my close circle supports gay and trans rights but I have yet to meet anyone that thinks this makes sense in real life.
Trans women have no place in womens sports. Period.
you have to actually have a severe cognitive deficiency to not be able to see how big of an advantage in sports being a biological male is.
44 comments
I am very supportive of the rights of transgender people, but can someone explain to me how someone like Lia Thomas doesn’t have an advantage over someone who was born biologically female?
Watching sport and caring about women being able to fairly compete aren’t the same. While I don’t watch any sport, I’m glad it exists for people who enjoy it.
You don’t have to be directly involved in something to say there is injustice in it.
What a disingenuous asshole. If she actually cared about women’s sport she would see the obvious unfairness involved.
This whole debate threatens to import the ongoing panic around trans people in the UK. The tone of the discourse seems to presume trans people are a far more privileged group then they are.
[deleted]
Thats like saying I cant care about something controversial or important thats happening in a table tennis tournament becuase I have never gone to watch a game?
I wouldn’t cross the road for swimming full stop, but still wouldn’t disregard legitimate concerns of people who are avid swim fans by implying that any issue they may have can be dismissed as little more than bigotry.
I’ve been a fan of women’s mma for years now and I’m a little bit tired of people who wouldn’t cross the road for women’s mma, or any combat sport for that matter, who are now upset by people who support these athletes having little appetite for watching Angela Lee having to fight against somebody who was born a biological male, anymore than they would care to see her step in the cage with Israel Adesanya.
Aoife Martin and her cheerleaders don’t have some kind of exclusive patent on getting upset. I get that it’s well intentioned, but it is also really dismissive of the concerns of female athletes competing in certain sports, particularly ones where they could be crippled or killed.
I would be interested in how many Women’s sports events Aoife Martin has attended, seeing as her opinion seems to be the only one that matters.
If you were born a male and went through puberty you shouldn’t be competing against females
I don’t watch women’s sports but I can still care about equality in sports as a whole.
Sports should be segregated on sex, not identity.
Perpetuating the narrative that anyone who has a contrary opinion or even tries to debate the issue of trans athletes is transphobic.
So are those of us who give up our time to coach women’s sports teams. Trans women have a biological advantage over non trans. The advantage is so great that depending on the sport it could be a danger to non trans women.
Discrimination against people suffering from gender dysphoria is awful and something that we should not tolerate as a society. It is a serious medical condition and those faced with it should be given the best health care solutions we could give them.
However, biological women have their own sports leagues and associations because there is quite clearly biological difference between men and women that create massive differences in athletic potential.
The fact that there is biological differences between men and women is uncomfortable for some trans activists, which is why many are comically being publicly unable to answer the question ‘what is a woman?’ or being able to define the word ‘woman’.
Having biological males who suffer from gender dysphoria and now live as women competing against biological females who have never felt the effects of significant levels of testosterone, exogenous or not, is grossly unfair at best and fatally dangerous at worst.
Your rights, trans or not, end when they encroach on anyone else’s rights. Women fought hard for the right to compete on a fair playing ground in sports and that is being taken away in the name of equality.
Trans leagues are the answer. There should also be leagues that allow for doping, for pretty much the same reason.
Trans activists are not sporting nor endocrine experts, nor are they child welfare experts. Their ability to be offended and to weaponise against any dissent should not trump the safety nor rights of others, but it is.
The rate at which young girls are identifying as trans is frightening and something that should be studied carefully. This is not a good outcome, nor should it be celebrated or encouraged. It should be treated seriously and avoided if possible in the same way that a cancer diagnosis is. Data indicate that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth.
Unfortunately, this same infallible podium trans activists have been given means that even attempts of psychiatric counselling distressed children in the hope of avoiding this diagnosis and lifelong medical treatment can be labelled as transphobic ‘conversion therapy’ and you’re a bigot for supporting this obviously necessary attempt at expert medical intervention for vulnerable children.
Calling someone a bigot does not mean you’re correct, nor that the person is a bigot.
Unfortunately, a loud minority has been led to the belief that this is a valid form of activism through the cowardice of our society.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdT1PvJDRo4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdT1PvJDRo4) This person offers counterarguments to a lot of the stuff in this thread. please be respectful but consider watching if you want a contrary opinion with supporting evidence
Am I right in saying she can still compete in the open category….aka mens category?
Not trying to be an asshole but it’s not like she was winning any medals as a man so if she just wants to swim for the sake of it then just continue as you are in the open category?
I suppose that would give her an unfair disadvantage against the men but then again that’s probably how the women feel when she swims against them in their category…..
Complete nonsense as usual from The Journal. They are quickly becoming the Independent.
It’s well documented that men actually watch more womens sports than women do.
This person has had YEARS of testosterone flowing through their cells, they have different biomechanics, different muscle fibres/bones and more oxygenated blood in their body.
It doesn’t just come down to her current test levels.
Biological men will ALWAYS have a distinct advantage over women in most sports, therefore they should not be allowed complete in womens competitions. It’s completely nonsensical, it’s ridiculous and biological women are the only people who lose out.
Don’t come at me with your “that’s transphobic” nonsense. It’s not. It’s science, it’s biology and it’s facts.
Comparing a trans woman who was absolutely terrible in the mens rankings to a female world record holder and then saying “why are you complaining she didn’t break any records” is the most pathetic sentence in that article.
There are plenty of men competing in other womens sports who are breaking records and it’s unbelievably unfair.
How you can call yourself a journalist while writing complete shite like that is beyond me.
Live your life whatever way you want but your sex should always determine your entry to professional competitions and you can’t change your sex.
Downvote away 😂
I haven’t followed this story seriously but isn’t the main Irish person opposing this Sonia O’Sullivan? She’s done a lot more than cross the road for women’s sport.
Could I just say on behalf of myself ( and myself only) that as a woman of 5ft 8ins tall, quite fit and still competitive in a few contact sports, that I’m not nor was I ever strong enough to compete against a man. I have the utmost respect for trans people and everybody’s right to live as they feel comfortable but it is an unfair advantage in some sports. This is just my opinion.
You can have inclusion. You can have fairness. You can’t have both.
https://m.facebook.com/watch/?extid=CL-UNK-UNK-UNK-AN_GK0T-GK1C&v=1347215645758683&ref=sharing&_rdr
She’s shoehorning a connection that isn’t there. You don’t have to be a fan of women’s sports to understand that trans women have a natural advantage.
You can have inclusion or fairness. Pick one.
Sometimes i feel like people who insist on trans competing in womens sports dont even watch said sports either. Because if you actually do care for women sports you would not be saying this things. Equality towards trans in sports leads to severe disadvantage to biological women.
Problem is, if you try to nake this point they woukd lavel you transphobic.
I wouldn’t sleep with a man but that doesn’t mean I don’t support lgbt rights. Not really a good argument.
Don’t have to watch a sport to be supportive of women in sport.
Gatekeeping, pure and simple. “You can’t support the opinions of the oppressed because you don’t pay to watch them compete.”
Fuck off, already. I don’t have to like the sport to support a position.
She is a fucking idiot then.
The argument, and I’m not saying it isn’t valid because it 100% is and is the truth, is that sex and gender are separate things, which they are. But if even proponates can recognize that BIOLOGICALLY the sexes are different then why can they not realize that BIOLOGY gives a huge advantage to trans female athletes. (Which 100% they are women) and a DISADVANTAGE to trans male athletes. People have understood this for generations it’s why males and females compete separately in the first place. It is true that Trans women ARE women but it is simultaneously ALSO true that they would have an advantage over cis-female athletes.
I don’t care about women’s boxing, but I don’t like the idea of some former dude cracking a genetic female’s skull just so some politician can keep up with the latest cultural trend.
No. I actually don’t “care” in the sense that you think I do.
I just laugh. Because you reap what you sow
This is gonna lead down a road where Aoife will need to share a toilet area with a bloke after a night on the Guinness.
Trans females who are biologically men shouldn’t compete with females. Anyone who think otherwise is an asshat.
I’m all for trans people living their best lives and wish all of them happiness. But no way is this fair. You aren’t entitled to be able to compete in competitive sports especially at a high level. Tons of people are born with other medical conditions that prevent them from playing. If you’re trans sorry luck of the draw you aren’t able to compete. Everyone isn’t entitled to do every activity that’s just not possible.
And all those clever comments still don’t change the simple fact that it’s competitively unfair.
I couldn’t give 2 shits about soccer but I do care that FIFA is corrupt and hosting World Cups in countries where slave labor is being used to build stadiums.
I’m sure there are a lot of people who couldn’t care less about American football but were nonetheless upset about how unfairly Colin Kaepernick was being treated.
I’m sure 2 months ago there were many people in the world who never gave a 2nd thought about Russo-Ukrainian politics but are still upset that Russia is invading.
Just because you’re not a fan of something doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to engage with an opinion on the matter or push for change when there is an injustice being perpetrated.
“Those who wouldn’t cross the road for Ukraine are now upset by Russians in Ukraine.”
Well… yeah. It wasn’t previously being taken over by a small group of overpowered outsiders. Now that’s what is currently in process. Most women in sport and most Ukrainians would like for the overpowered outsiders to stop taking over and most reasonable observers support that.
Straw man.
It’s generally only people that are in, have been in, or have daughters currently in women’s sports who are concerned about this.
And generally people agree that trans women have an advantage and shouldn’t be competing as women while also supporting their right to choose how they wish to present themselves.
Doesnt matter if its popular or not, its about being fair. Which she doesnt talk about….
I didn’t care about the Boston marathon, am I entitled to the opinion that blowing up bombs there was bad?
Like yeah, a lot of people didn’t really care and now that something clearly bad is happening, they do.
Did you care about ukraine before putin invaded? Like, you can’t care about every issue all the time, but you can protest something that is just clearly wrong when it happens.
Thomas swam competitively through high school at a state level as a male, and people are that deluded to think it’s ok for them to now swim as a woman?
If that’s trans rights then I’m actively against it.
The concept of equality has been bastardised into something truly grotesque and illogical.
The article really ignoring the facts men have a advantage in physical strength for the most part
I am shocked that this is actually a conversation. Nearly everyone in my close circle supports gay and trans rights but I have yet to meet anyone that thinks this makes sense in real life.
Trans women have no place in womens sports. Period.
you have to actually have a severe cognitive deficiency to not be able to see how big of an advantage in sports being a biological male is.