The Liberum Veto is normally argued to be one of the main reasons for the partition of the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth, what do Poles think of the current veto power in the EU?

by ozneoknarf

17 comments

  1. I can answer as a Belarusian: it fucked us up. This is what happens when the idea meets the reality. Veto rule doesn’t work properly even now, when people tend to be more educated and there are less reasons to fight over things. This was one of the reasons we got yoinked by ruzzia, Prussia and Austria.

  2. Yeah, it is problematic as it is used to undermine EU politics. As much as we like Hungarians, many of Poles are at least cautious about Hungarian government. Not once, not twice, Hungary used veto mechanisms to block anything that may he pointed against they Non-EU “partner” – Russia.

  3. Veto mechanisms are inherently vulnerable to abuse. There should be either strict limitations on how often a faction can use their veto privileges or else the ability to use veto should only be reserved for cases where the vote going through would cause an incompatibility with the present laws (not so much blocking the motion as forcing it to go through reevaluation)

  4. I think it’s wrong but it should be addressed after revision of how EU comissiong is selected and accounted for. EPP is in charge of EU for last 25 years, can’t be good thing. EU Parliament which is at least elected by nations of EU can’t force the Commision to resign – it needs whopping 2/3 – it’s like opposite liberum veto.

  5. liberum veto served interests of nobles, eu veto serves interest of countries.

    eu veto is good because we wont end up getting outvoted by france+germany (both close to electing a fascist government)

  6. It’s a bad thing to have in a country but EU is a different topic. It’s an organisation of 27 countries that have behind them centuries or even millennials of fighting each other. The national interests of them can be very different. To build a long lasting United Europe the unification process can’t be rushed. Veto guarantees that every country will be relevant, doesn’t matter if it’s France or Latvia and will cooperate with other EU countries on conditions acceptable by them. If we abandon veto in EU it will just create more problems and fuel for anti-EU people because EU would actually be able to force politics on countries.

    Many people that want to abandon veto don’t think long term. They just see Hungary doing shit and want to get pass that but in the future it can be a completely different situation. Let’s imagine there’s no veto. Let’s say in 2040 most EU countries have agreed to ban nuclear energy. You’re pro atom and your country agrees with you but it doesn’t matter. Now your country is forced to close its nuclear power plants. When we want to take away something from others we always have to put ourselves in their situation, especially in politics. We always have to look for ways politicians may fuck things up.

    Although we need some method if a singular country is purposely working against the EU.

  7. It’s not an exact parallel, but yeah a complete veto is an issue in EU. There should be a mechanism in play that doesn’t allow one weird country to hold the union down, but still protects the interests of the less influential parts of it.

  8. Well – the liberum veto was a very bad parliamentary practice, as it made executive (in this case King) useless.
    He could not collect taxes, rise an army to defend a country, create actual administration. That eventually led to 3 partitions.

    In EU, even thought we have this united vote rule, it’s not really THE rule. Somethings can pass with a votum separatum from few countries. In addition – EU can execute taxation (in form of money countries put into common budget) and can enforce laws to be compliant in countries with EU law.
    The only thing EU is not having (and should have) is the common European army. But this is coming in my opinion.

    So two different situations to be honest.

    Having said that – I’m all in favor of kicking out Hungary that are russian rat in European community. Screw them and their show stopping in minor acts.

  9. we deeply cherish the EU veto (me and my family makes a ‘we”, ain’t it)

  10. The Veto will always be a “bad” thing for whatever institution it is in. It doesn’t make the institution itself any good. (Especially on such a scale)

    That’s why the concept of a veto exists anyway, in theory, if a certain thing is passed, due to the nature of the Veto it means that everyone who’s voting is satisfied.

    In practice, it makes the institution itself vulnerable to all kinds of foreign and domestic threats, while also slowing down the already incredibly slow domecratic process.

    It’s a high price to pay for cohesion, and it’s clear that this power will become less and less popular as the EU continues to centralize.

    Should it be abolished? Well, that depends on your overall stance on the European Union. And currently, I would prefer if it stayed. But if the EU gets it’s shit together then I’ll be more than happy to accept it being removed.

  11. I absolutely disagree that liberum veto and the EU veto law can be even compared.

    Liberum veto could be invoked by any present noble, at any moment, and it meant immediate termination of the current Sejm session and nullification of every decision made during said session.

    The EU veto law means, that (more or less) democratically elected government of an EU state can block a decision being discussed, and only some of the decisions can be vetoed.

    BTW, if the fact that something like “Liberum veto” could even exist in the country, that was surrounded by territory-hungry adversaries makes your head hurt, you gonna love the Rokosz.

  12. Those that want the EU to be weak like it, those that don’t want it to collapse dislike it.

  13. They are the same. They apply logical product to binary decisions.

  15. Even without veto, Poland was doomed to fail. Way too many nobility privilages and too much focus on short term self-interest. Our neighbours would find another way to influence our “elites” who would sell their country to the highest bidder. Not to mention army which was so ineffective, it’s a miracle we survived as long as we did.

  16. Veto is in theory a great idea (just like communism). It works when everyone is respecting the rules, sharing the same or similar values and wants what’s best for everyone involved. Unfortunately, life shows systems that require everyone involved to work together can’t be used to govern bigger groups, because humans aren’t always good, reasonable and cooperative, we’re also lazy, greedy and sometimes just plain stupid. Which is why veto is a dangerous mechanism that allows one malicious member of the governing body to block every initiative.

    There is a polish cartoon Kapitan Bomba that has a “villain” group Deformers (based on Transformers) who make all decisions “democratically” among 3 of them but with a “veto” right and they never get anything done because none of them wants to let the others rule and they always “veto” every idea that wasn’t theirs.

  17. Veto is a stupid idea, that gives one guy the ability to paralyse the entire system.

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