LIVE: Karen Read Murder Trial — MA v. Karen Read — Day Nine

LIVE: Karen Read Murder Trial — MA v. Karen Read — Day Nine

Why were they I heard my coworker. I heard my coworker got kicked out of here. We’ve been live streaming entering and exiting. Well, they got they got on my case. So I was nicer than that might be it. He’s actually got kicked off. I was shooting the victim. But I said, “Okay, that’s fine. We won’t do it.” So that’s already I don’t think so. But there’s a balance, right? Because it’s like, yeah, I guess they do have the power to let us I said, “Listen, I’m not going to do it for Where the heck is she? demonstration. Why not ask questions? behavior, right? What? You Heat. Heat. I got to go. It’s like Heat. Heat. Yeah, that’s not me. Hey there, Karen Reed, trial watchers. You know what? A lot of the trials we cover remind me of that the world is unfortunately very unpredictable. And I’ll tell you what, having a great lawyer matters so much. That is where our great partner and sponsor Morgan and Morgan comes in. This is a firm with over a thousand attorneys. You know why? 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All persons having anything to do before the honorable Beverly Canon, the justice of the superior court holded in Denim within and far the county of Norark. Draw near. Give your attendance and you shall be heard. God save the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. This court is in session. Please be seated. Right. Good morning again and council. Good morning, Miss Reed. Good morning, juries. I have to ask you those same three questions. Were you all able to follow my instructions and refrain from discussing this case with anyone since we left here on Friday? Everyone said yes or no affirmatively. Were you also able to follow the instruction and refrain from doing any independent research or investigation into this case? Everyone said yes or no affirmatively. Did anyone happen to see, hear, or read anything about this case since we left here on Friday? Everyone said no or shook their heads. Thank you very much. All right, Mr. Brennan, your next witness, please. I understood that the defense informed they were still on cross- examination. I’m sorry. I got nervous. Okay. I I thought that we were done with that witness. I I had said to cut me off so that we could end early, but no, I haven’t worked. Okay. I didn’t know that. I’m glad I’m glad Mr. Brennan knew that. All right. Come back in, Miss Nles, please. Just I’ll remind you you’re still on your own. Thank you. Thank you. All right, Misty and Good morning. Good morning. Uh ma’am, on Friday you testified to this jury about the fact that the Mass State Police Crime Lab is accredited as a forensic lab. Correct. Yes, I did. And you discussed the fact that as a forensic chemist 4, you help to ensure compliance with the lab’s administrative policies, quality assurance and control requirements, and making sure that you’re complying with accreditation standards. Correct. Yes. That’s one of my job duties and responsibilities. Uh you also acknowledge that in contrast to the accreditation standards of your forensic lab, the standards of a hospital lab may be different. Correct. I’m I have no direct knowledge of what the standards at a hospital are. Um and so I can’t say whether they’re the same or if they’re different. I’m just unfamiliar with them. Okay. Uh and you’re unfamiliar with the standards at Good Samaritan Hospital. Correct. Correct. I have no direct knowledge of their accreditation status or requirements or body. And you know that they were the ones to do the blood draw in this case. Correct. That’s consistent with the medical records I had available for review prior to preparing my report. And you cannot vouch for that ethanol testing. Correct. Correct. I have no direct knowledge of the accuracy or reliability. Um my calculations are solely based on the results of the good Samaritan lab. For instance, you don’t know how the arm was prepared when the blood was drawn. Correct. I was not present and I have no knowledge of the policies and procedures of um blood draw at Good Samaritan Hospital or this case specifically. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to cut you off. Um excuse me. You can’t vouch for the tubes and vials that Good Samaritan uses. Correct. I cannot. Um, are you aware that there was a recall on certain tubes and vials because there was a contamination determined by the manufacturer sustained? You can’t vouch for how Good Samaritan stores, preserves, and assures the integrity of its equipment. Correct. Correct. I have no direct knowledge of those topics. Now, excuse me. At your lab, you do both a screening test and a confirmatory test, correct? Yes, that’s accurate. The confirmatory test is a second and separate test. You rerun the same sample again. Correct. Um depending on the type of samples that are submitted and the facts of the case, we will either use the same sample that screened positive or that sample as well as another to run duplicate analysis and and compare them. It it depends on um the materials available and the nature of the case. Understood. So you do that to ensure that there’s no error in the testing. Correct. It’s part of many of the steps involved to ensure accuracy and reliability of the results that are reported. And you realize that when you’re doing this testing, because you’re a forensic lab, you may ultimately be testifying in court and you want to make sure you get it right. Correct. Yes. And the confirmatory test acts as a fail safe against false positives for for example. Correct. The screening and the confirmatory test are typically um using different methodologies or different techniques to ensure that a false positive under one technique would not um have similar issues with the the other or the confirmatory technique. Okay. And in this case, your lab did not do any confirmatory testing, correct? Um my lab did not have samples submitted for this individual um to perform testing on. You know of no confirmatory testing that was done by Good Samaritan, correct? I don’t know um what their policies and procedures are and if the results on the report were the results of confirmatory testing um or otherwise. Um you just have to assume the accuracy of the testing that they did do. Correct. I used the results that were reported on the medical records provided to perform calculations. And you cannot testify that the testing done at Good Samaritan meets your accreditation standards. Correct. Correct. Now, your lab does whole blood testing, does it not? If whole blood is submitted for a case, then we will test whole blood. If serum or plasma is the only available sample appropriate for testing, then we will proceed with testing on serum or plasma. Whole blood testing leads to more accurate readings of the percentage of alcohol in somebody’s blood. Correct. Correct. If you would like to know the percentage of alcohol in someone’s blood, the best sample to test would be their blood. And you’ve learned through your training and experience that uh many hospitals, including Good Samaritan, use a different method of testing than whole blood testing. Correct. Yes. Good Samaritan uses serum or plasma testing as opposed to whole blood testing. I’m not familiar with their specific technique or methodology. I haven’t undergone training for their methods, but it is my understanding that the type of sample used for their method is serum or plasma. Now, whole blood includes plasma, but it also includes white blood cells, platelets, and red blood cells. Correct. Correct. there. Typically we um describe serum or plasma as the liquid portion of blood um and the other cellular components that you described typically are removed or separated before testing. Plasma has a higher water content than red blood cells, white blood cells or platelets, right? Yes, it is. Alcohol is highly soluble in water, is it not? Yes. So alcohol has a better affinity with water. Is that fair to say? Yes. That means that alcohol pref prefer I’m sorry prefers to distribute into the more watery components of blood. Correct. Yes, that’s accurate. And and that also means that alcohol is found in higher concentrations in serum and plasma testing than in whole blood testing. Correct. That’s correct. That difference in water content is the basis of the serum conversion that I described on Friday. Okay. So a lab like good Samaritans that in this case did serum or plasma testing will therefore provide results of blood alcohol concentration that are higher than what the true blood alcohol concentrations are. Correct. The serum alcohol or plasma alcohol concentrations that they report on their medical records would be higher than the corresponding blood alcohol concentration. That’s correct. So to calc to um translate the good Samaritan results into a more accurate reading of blood alcohol content, you need to convert the serum and plasma results to what those results would be in whole blood testing. Correct? I’ll allow it. Can you answer it as stated? Yes. Um the accuracy of the value isn’t changed by the reading. It’s it’s a it’s a different value. It’s a it’s a serum or plasma alcohol concentration versus an estimated blood alcohol concentration. So, um if it is helpful or relevant to know what the whole blood analysis would have been if the testing had been performed on whole blood um then that conversion um starting with the serum alcohol or plasma alcohol concentration um is is helpful to to do. But to calculate a precise conversion rate, you’d first need to know precisely the amount of water in somebody’s blood. Correct. the range of serum factors or serum conversion factors that are used in um the preparation of my report and the calculations that I performed accounts for total body water variation from individual to individual. Um the reason I use um between 13 and 19% um and not just one single value is because I don’t know the specific conversion factor that would be appropriate for an individual when I have medical records to review. I think that was a long way of saying yes to my question. Right. My question was to calc to calculate uh a precise conversion rate for somebody you’d first need to precisely know the amount of water in that person’s blood. Correct? Sustained. Ask it differently, Mr. Is it scientifically possible to predict with accuracy a precise conversion rate for one individual person? Yes. Everybody has a different amount of water in his or her blood. Correct. There is a normal variation between individuals. I’m sorry. I I just I’m going to do my best to ask yes or no questions. And then if there’s an explanation, Mr. Lai can stand up afterward and have you explain, but this will go more quickly. No, no comments. Just go ahead and ask a question. Sure. Uh, everybody has a different amount of water in his or her blood. Correct. Yes. And there are a number of factors that influence the amount of water in somebody’s blood. Correct? Yes. What is hematocrit? I don’t know. Uh, hematocrit is the percentage of red blood cells in whole blood cells. Do you know that? Sustained. Are you aware that individual hematocrit can vary and that it affects the water content in blood sustained? Would somebody’s age be a factor in determining the amount of water in their blood? I don’t know. Could somebody’s gender affect the amount of water in their blood? Yes. Uh, could could when somebody had eaten and what somebody had eaten before the blood was drawn affect the amount of water in their blood? It’s possible, but I’m not aware of those factors being considered when performing total body water calculations. Um, would how frequently a person uses the restroom affect the amount of water in their blood? as it would relate to their state of hydration. It’s possible, but again, I’m not I’m not familiar with performing precise calculations on individuals. It’s it’s not a routine part of my job, and it’s not a scope in the scope of my expertise. Would medications, some medications potentially affect the amount of water in somebody’s blood? It’s possible. Yes. And conversion factors vary significantly between individuals, but they can also vary within the same individual over time, can they not? I believe so. Yes. Um, and all of the factors that we’ve discussed that you’ve adopted can impact the conversion factor that is used. Correct? Yes. And there is no one universally agreed upon conversion factor. Correct. Correct. There is a range that is agreed upon but not a singular conversion factor. Right. And the range that you used was point I’m sorry 1.13 to 1.19. Correct? Yes. Um you recognize however that with all the factors affecting the amount of water in somebody’s blood from person to person and even within one person over time, some people can fall outside the range that you used. Correct. Yes. And you recognize that some studies have shown a conversion rate from serum to whole blood can be higher than 1.19. Correct? Yes. Are you aware of a study by Rainey R AI ne reporting conversion rates as high as 1.59? Yes. And if the conversion rate is higher, that would mean that the actual blood alcohol content concentration would be lower. Correct? Yes. So if you’re using a range of conversion factors that does not capture what the conversion factor should be for the individual that you’re testing, you can’t have confidence in the result. Correct. Correct. The range that is utilized um is looking at studies of large large groups of people um to try to capture as accurately as possible most individuals in the population, but it would not cover 100% of scenarios um with all the factors that you described. Okay. And you’d agree that your conversion of serum to whole blood here is imprecise. Correct. The conversion was performed within the policies and procedures of the laboratory and the best practice recommendations for my field but it is imprecise. Can you repeat the question? Let’s move on. The conversion from serum to whole blood did not end the calculations that you needed to do in order to testify here today. Correct. Correct. The conversion from serum to whole blood only translated what Ms. Reed’s blood alcohol supposedly would have been or was, I’m sorry, at the hospital at 9:08 a.m. on January 29th of 2022. Correct? Yes. You were asked to try to find out what her blood alcohol level uh would have been 7 or 8 hours earlier, closer to midnight or sometime between midnight and 1:00 a.m. Correct. The time utilized for my calculations was 12:45 a.m. So you started with the results that you obtained from your serum to whole blood conversion, right? Yes. Which uh was an imprecise calculation? Which was intending to cover the majority of population. But was it imprecise? It followed the policies and procedures of my laboratory. What was the precise number then? Was there a precise number or was it imprecise? The range. I’m not talking about a range. I I know that you’d like to say that. Was there a precise number? Ma’am, the results of my report was not a single number. It is a range of numbers. Let’s move on. Miss DNA. Yes. Uh then once you get that range uh you have to do an extrapolation on top of that to figure out what the blood alcohol concentration would have been at 12:45 7 or 8 hours earlier. Correct. Yes. But in order Excuse me. In order to do that extrapolation, you need to make assumptions about things that you do not know. Correct. Yes. Um, in terms of processing alcohol, there is an absorption phase, a plateau, and an elimination phase. Correct? Yes, that’s accurate and consistent with my understanding. And during the absorption phase, blood alcohol concentration can be rising. Correct? Yes. And to to determine whether somebody is in the absorption phase or the elimination phase, you need to know when their last drink was. Correct. Yes, if you’re performing that type of calculation, um, or if you’re trying to determine if they’ve reached their maximum, that would be helpful information to have. The longer the time between the last drink and the test, the more variability and potential for error there is in the extrapolation. Correct? Can you ask the question again, please? In this case, you assumed that Ms. reads last drink was at 12:45 a.m. Correct. No. Um the calculation assumed um for the maximum calculation that no alcohol had been consumed um between 1 and a half and 2 hours prior to that time interval start at 12:45 a.m. Okay. And the test wasn’t until 9:08 a.m. Yes. Uh the range that you came up with was.14 to28% correct? Yes. 14 to28 g per and that was a very wide range was it not? It certainly is 28 is double.14. Yep. Uh and that range is so wide uh because there are a lot of unknowns about the way each person individually processes alcohol. Correct. There’s a lot of interpersonal differences. That’s correct. There are a lot of different factors that would impact somebody’s blood alcohol content. Correct. Yes. What somebody had to eat can impact their blood alcohol concentration. Correct. the contents of their stomach or what they had eaten recently um does not impact the rates of elimination that I use for my calculation, but it can factor into the absorption part of the curve and can impact that maximum amount that’s reached. Okay. Their body weight can impact their blood alcohol concentration. Correct. Correct. Again, it would not necessarily or it could be included in the rate of elimination range that I use for my calculations. Um, the person’s body weight has more to do with again the absorption, the maximum concentration, the first parts of the curve and not the elimination portion um that we’re discussing when we’re doing retrograde extrapolation. And the first word of your answer was correct, right? Yes. A person’s metabolic metabolic rate can impact their blood alcohol concentration because different people metabolize alcohol at different rates. Correct? Yes. Um in addition regarding the timing of the last drink, um you were not with Ms. Reed on the late evening of January 28th or the early the early morning of January 29th of 2022. Correct. Correct. I was not. You have no personal knowledge of when Ms. Reed had her last drink. Correct. Correct. Were you informed that Ms. Reed was upset after 12:45 a.m. when you were doing these calculations? Um, I don’t believe so. Uh, did you know, were you informed that she went to John O’Keefe’s house in Canton and was the only adult in the house at that time after 12:45? Systeine. Are you aware of what type of alcohol John O’Keefe had available in his house at that time? Sistine. Were you aware that she was waiting for John O’Keefe to come home, but he never did? Do you have any personal knowledge of whether Ms. Reed poured herself a drink during the hours of 12:45 a.m. and 6:00 a.m. on January 29th of 2022? No, I do not. And do you know whether she had more than one drink during those hours? No, I do not. Assume that Ms. Reed did have something alcoholic to drink after 12:45 a.m. would that affect your assumptions about whether she was in the absorption or the elimination phase? Yes, it would. And if she did have something to drink after 12:45 a.m., what would that do to your calculations? um the foundation of my calculations would be incorrect. Um I would need to perform different calculations or factor in the information as it would become available and issue a different report. Okay. So if your assumption of when she had her last drink was incorrect, you would not have confidence that your conclusions about which you testified Friday and today are accurate. Correct. Correct. There is some parts of the calculation um that are intended to accommodate for unknown drinking history but with a eight over eight hour time span between confidence that your conclusions about which you testified Friday and today are accurate. Correct. Correct. parts of the calculation um that are intended to accommodate for unknown drinking history. But with a eight over eight hour time span between um the time of interest and the time that the blood sample was collected um that adjustment in the calculation intending to avoid overshooting the blood alcohol concentration um may or may not be enough to address that. And if new more accurate information was available then um I would need to incorporate that um in the discussion and calculations. Right? So in answer to my question if her last if your assumption about when the last drink was uh consumed was incorrect, you would not have confidence that your conclusions are accurate today. Correct. Now uh were you ever asked to determine the blood alcohol level of Brian Albert? No. Were you ever asked to determine the blood alcohol level of Brian Higgins? Sustained. Were you asked to determine the blood alcohol level of anyone except for Karen Reed in this case? I’ll allow that. Um to the best of my knowledge, uh my only involvement with this case in my unit um was the request to perform these calculations on this individual. Thank you. All right, Mr. Lally. Morning, Miss Nolles. Good morning. Now, again, how many serum conversions have you performed over your years at the lab? It’s hard to know an exact number, but at least over a hundred. and the ethanol reading or the alcohol reading within Miss Reed’s medical records that you testified to uh previously uh last week. What was that reading again? 93 milligrams per deciliter. And that reading in milligrams per deciliter, is that typical for how you would see alcohol recorded in hospital records? Yes, it is. And specifically hospital records that you would then be asked to perform a serum conversion on? Yes. Now with respect to your calculations in this case, did you perform these calculations consistent with how you have done in each and every prior instance uh within your work at the lab? Yes, the serum conversion factors have been adjusted since first started doing these. Um but um the same type of math was performed. Um, and I’d used the approved abbrevi approved conversion factors that are published in our protocols with with each one that I did. Now, what is the difference between whole blood and serum? Um, whole blood is um blood as we think of it with both the liquid and the cellular components as it exists in our bodies. Um, serum is the liquid portion of blood after those cellular components have been removed. And how does the difference between them impact your testing or your calculations? Because of the different water content in whole blood versus serum. Um that means that if we would like to compare a serum alcohol concentration and a whole blood alcohol concentration um that we have to apply a conversion factor um to be able to compare those two. Um the serum alcohol concentration is always higher than the whole blood alcohol concentration. And that difference is that accounted for within the calculations or the conversion factors that you utilize? Yes. And how so? Um the conversion factors um by dividing by 1.13 and 1.19 um can adjust for the difference between the water content and therefore the serum and whole blood ratio um that’s observed in studies. And that change in conversion factors uh does that benefit the defendant in this case? Objection. I’ll allow it or ask it differently. Mr. Sure. The changing conversion factors uh recently implemented in your your lab and your protocols. Who does that benefit? Um the question of benefit depends on the context. speaking to the math, um dividing by a larger number means the resulting number would be smaller. So the whole blood alcohol concentration numbers um would be smaller when using the current between 13 and 19% factors um as opposed to the previously used between 12 and 18% factors. Now these conversion factors where again do they come from? The conversion factors come from published studies um involving individuals that consumed alcohol, had samples um collected from them and their whole blood and their serum alcohol concentrations were compared. Um those conversion factors are present in the protocols in use um in the laboratory where I work and they’re also consistent with best practice recommendations or consensus body documents in the field that I work. Now you were asked on cross- examination about a number of different uh factors. Um are those factors incorporated within the conversion factors and the published uh scientific literature supporting those conversion factors by basing it on studies with number like a large number of people. Um that’s the intention is to capture the interpersonal differences and different factors um within that range that’s used. Now if you know how much um in the elimination phase as far as uh bladders are concerned, how much loss of alcohol is concerned uh in the elimination phase with reference to bladder loss? I’m sorry. Can you repeat the question? I don’t think I understood the poor question. Let me let me rephrase. So, you were asked some questions on cross- examination about how frequently someone uses the restroom in the elimination phase, correct? I believe I was. Yes. And do you have any idea from your um training experience as far as how much alcohol is typically lost by an individual during the elimination phase through the bladder? Do you know that? I do. Okay, you can answer it. um less than less than 5% the the vast majority of alcohol is eliminated from the body um by an enzyme that breaks it down from alcohol into carbon dioxide and water. Um I can’t remember exactly how much is generally eliminated but I believe it’s less than 5% of the total blood alcohol concentration. Now, you were asked about whether or not the defendant had a drink after 12:45 a.m. Do you have any evidence that the defendant did in fact have any alcohol to drink after 12:45 a.m.? Objection. 16. If there was a drink uh at approximately 1:00 a.m., what kind of impact would that have on your calculations? It would depend on it would depend on how much had been consumed. Um if any alcohol had been consumed um then it would adjust the calculations um depending on that information. And what I’m asking, Miss Nolles, is if there is a slight differential in the time of incident or last drink, how much impact would that have on the range that you’re able to calculate? I’m not sure. Now, you testified as far as the range being on the retrograde analysis being between a 0.14 and a 02 weight, correct? Yes, I did. Are you aware what the legal limit is in Massachusetts? Um, I’m going to sustain that actually. Why is there such a a varying range? Because there is such variation between individuals with their rates of elimination um the calculation used um both a sort of extreme low and extreme high rate of rate of elimination. Um and um because we don’t know the individual’s rate of elimination, um that range is intentionally wide to ensure that the actual um blood alcohol concentration um lies somewhere between it. It’s it’s intending to account for a lot of the factors that we’ve been discussing. It’s intentionally a wide range because there are so un so many unknown factors and it was so much time that had elapsed between the time of interest and the time of collection. And based on your calculations um as far as the 93 milligrams per deciliter, what does that convert to as far as the blood alcohol concentration for the defendant at 9:08 a.m. on January 29th? um 93 milligrams per deciliter um in serum alcohol concentration would convert to between 0.078 and 0.082 g per and from your calculations in your retrograde analysis what was the range uh that you were able to calculate uh for the defendant’s blood alcohol concentration at 12:45 a.m. on January 29th between 0.14 and 0.28 28 g% and 0.14 28 and every number in between is higher than 08. Is that correct? Yes, it is. Nothing further. No further questions. All right, Miss Nolles, you are all set. Thank you very much. All right, Conwell’s next witness, please. Four. Promo calls. Ryan Nagel. You raise your right hand. Do you saw the evidence of the court and jury in the case down here and the truth? The whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help your good morning. Good morning. May I proceed? Yes. Good morning, sir. Good morning. Could you please introduce yourself to the jury? Uh, my name is Ryan Nagel. How old are you? I am 32 years old. What area of the city or the state do you live in? I live in Canton, Massachusetts. How long have you lived in Canton for? Uh, 32 years my whole life. You still live in Canton? Uh, yes I do. Do you work in the area? Uh, I work in the city. What do you do generally? Uh, I do HVAC. Do you have any sisters? I do. I have one. What’s her name? Uh Juliana, is she older or younger than you? Uh she is younger. I want you to take us back to January 29th, 2022. That evening on the 28th leading into the 29th, do you remember where you were? Uh yes, I do. Where were you? Uh I was in a vehicle. Okay. Before you were in the vehicle, were you out earlier that night on the 28th? Uh yes, sir. I was at CF McCarthy’s. What’s CF McCarthy’s? uh is a local restaurant/pub in the center of Canton. Who were you at CF McCarthy’s with? Uh my sister um at the time and then my friend Ricky and uh my ex-girlfriend Heather. What were you doing at CF McCarthy’s? Uh just enjoying a night having a few drinks. When you said have a few drinks, did you have a few drinks? I did. Yes. Do you remember how many drinks you had? Um not off the top of my head. Do you remember whether the drinks you had, the alcoholic drinks that you had, it affected your ability at all? Were you impaired in any way? Um, I wouldn’t say impaired, but I I only drank beer, so Okay. Do you feel like you had any type of effect from the alcohol? Um, I may have. Were you driving? No, I was not, sir. Do you remember the times that you were at McCarthy? Uh probably 8 9:00. What time did you leave? Uh probably right before midnight. When you left McCarthy’s right before midnight, did you have a plan that you were going to do something? Uh no, I did not. Tell us after you leave McCarthy’s. Where do you go? Um I was going to go home, but my sister Julie texted me to be picked up. Um, when you were going to go home, tell us when you leave McCarthy’s, what kind of vehicle were you in? Uh, I was in my friend Ricky’s, uh, Ford pickup truck. Who was driving? Uh, Ricky. Was anybody else with you, too? Uh, my ex-girlfriend Heather. Heather. You know Heather’s last name? Maxim. Was she in the front or the back of the truck? Uh, she was in the back seat. So, you three were in the truck and Ricky was driving? Correct, sir. You mentioned you were going to go home. Did you start to head towards your home? Mr. Brennan, slow down a little bit for the court, please. Pardon me. You mentioned you were going to go home. Did you start heading towards your house? Uh, yes. Do you remember what time you got the text from your sister? Around midnight. I’m not I can’t remember that far back. You don’t have a firm memory of it? No. No, I do not. Sir, after you received the text from your sister, did your plan change? Uh, yes. And what was the plan after you received the text from your sister? To go pick her up. Did you know where she was? Uh, yes I did. Where was she? She was at a friend Brian’s house. Did you know the address? Um, not off the top of my head, but I knew the street. Did you know the house? Yes. Did you know her friend Brian? Yes, I did. What is his last name? Albert. Is he a senior or a junior? Uh, he is a junior. About how old is he? Uh, I think 27, 28 years old. Were you friends with Brian Albert Jr.? Just through my sister. Had you ever been to that house before inside the house? Uh, no I have not, sir. Do you have any other purpose of going to that address other than to pick up your sister? No, sir. How long did it take you after you left um to redirect and get to that address? Uh probably roughly 5 to 7 minutes. Do you know what time specifically you arrived at that address? Probably a little before 12:30. Is that a general guess? Uh yes. Did you look at your watch and note the time or is this an estimate? Just an estimate, sir. You estimated you arrived around 12:30, correct? When you approach the house, before you approach the house, is there a road that intersects Fair View? Uh, yes. And what’s the name of that road? Um, can actually uh give me a second. Um, I can’t think of the name. Okay. Are you right now? Are you familiar with any roads in that area? Yes, sir. Do you are you familiar with the road Cedar Crest? Uh, yes, sir. Had you driven on Cedar Crest before? Yes, I have. If you’re driving on Cedar Crest, can you loop around like a circle on that road? Uh, yes. At some point, do the two parts of that circle intersect with another road? I believe so. Okay. Is Fair View from your knowledge attached to Cedar Crest Road? Yes. As you were traveling, did you travel on Cedar Crest before you got to Fair View? Yes. Okay. I want to ask you some questions about right before you turn on or Ricky turns on to Fair View as you’re driving down Cedar Crest. Before you turn on to Fair View, did you see anything? Uh I saw a vehicle coming at us. Not directly at us, but obviously traveling on the other side of the road. Okay. And where was that uh vehicle traveling towards? Um us and then they put their blinker on to take a right and that to take a right. That vehicle was going to take a right onto Fair View. Correct, sir. And your vehicle is coming in the opposite direction, correct? Where was your vehicle going? Uh, taking a left onto Fair View. Did you both meet at that intersection? Uh, yes, roughly around the same time. Who turned onto Fair View first? Uh, the the other vehicle. How did that happen? Um, I believe Ricky flashed his lights to let them go. Did you see the other vehicle? Uh, yes. Do you remember what kind of vehicle it was? That was a black SUV. When that car turned right onto Fair View, how long after did Ricky turn left onto Fair View? Seconds. When you came to that intersection and met that car, when Ricky blinked his lights, could you see inside that SUV? Um, say that again. When you came to the intersection at Fair View Mhm. and you said that the driver of your truck, Ricky, blinked his lights, could you see anything inside the SUV? Uh, I wasn’t really looking. Okay. After that SUV turned right onto Fair View and Ricky turned left onto Fair View. Who was in front of who? Uh, the other vehicle was in front of us. Was the other vehicle in front of you the entire time you saw it? Yes, sir. Did you Did Ricky ever drive and park in front of that vehicle? Uh, no. We were behind them. Always behind it? Always. When Ricky pulled up to Fair View, where did he stop? Uh, right in front of the driveway of of the Albert’s house. You were in the front passenger side of the truck. Correct. Sir, if you look directly outside that window, what would you have seen? Uh, the driveway in the house, the other vehicle, did it stop at the driveway? Um, no. It was probably like a car length in front of us. So, it was in front of you. Correct, sir. Did you ever see that car stop at the driveway? At the driveway? I don’t recall. Okay. Um, did you wait before you got to Fair View or did Ricky drive directly to Fair View after he took the left? Well, he turned the left onto Fair View. Okay. Did he wait or did he drive directly to Fair View? He drove directly there. Okay. The car in front of you, did you ever see it move behind you in front of the driveway? Behind. It was in front of me the whole time. And And so I’ll ask the question again. Did you ever see that SUV stop at the front of the driveway? No, but I did see the brake lights. It looked like it moved, but it wasn’t. So, the brake lights were on. It released them and then stopped again. So, probably moved another car length up. How many times did you see the brake brake lights on? Uh, just once, sir. After you stopped at the foot of the driveway, did you keep your attention on that SUV? Uh, not really. know I was more concerned about my sister. So you weren’t studying it? No. You weren’t Were you making any notes or trying to mark its direction or travel? No. Um but you do know or do you have any doubt that it was in front of you the entire time? Yes, it was. When you pulled to the driveway, did you go in to see your sister? Uh no. What did you do? Uh I texted her saying we’re here and she came out, opened up the door. She looks at me in wreck and said, “Hey, do you guys want to come in? um you know for a drink or whatever and I looked at him, looked in the back seat, asked Heather, we said, “No, we’re all set. We’re going to go home.” And so she decided to stay. So the idea was to give her a ride home. You did not give her a ride home. Correct. We did not. Let me ask you some questions. Before your sister came out of the house, do you remember how long you waited for her? Roughly 2 minutes. Okay. In its entirety, how long was that truck parked at the foot of the driveway in front of Fair View? closer to five five minutes or is that an estimate? Yes. I’m just guessing from what I can remember. You didn’t did you mark the time in any way? Look at your watch in any way. No, sir. That’s your general memory. You’re just roughly trying to remember. When you looked up at the house, did you see there were more than one door? Uh, yes. There were two doors. Do you remember what door your sister came out of? She came out of the uh the side door, which is to the left of the garage. Did you watch her? Yes. Where did she walk from? Where to where? Um, she walked out of that door down the driveway towards us. When she reached you, uh, how did you have a conversation with her if you were in the truck? I opened the door. My passenger door. As you were speaking with her, were you watching anything else or was your attention directed to your sister? Nope, just on just on my sister. At some point after your sister turned to go inside, did you wait for her or did you leave right away or did Ricky leave right away? Um, we waited for her to get back into the house. At any point before your sister went back in the house, did you see any lights like dome lighting come on inside that SUV? Uh, yes I did, sir. Before or after your sister went in the house? Uh, roughly like how she was getting in the door. Okay. Um, before you ended your conversation with her, did you see the dome light go on in that SUV? Say that again. Sorry. Before your sister left the driveway, did you see any dome light on in the SUV? No, I wasn’t looking. Your sister began to walk back to the house. What was your direction? What was your attention focused on? Um, mainly on her. We were pulling away from the driveway and kind of just glancing back over at Julia to make sure she got in. When your sister went back up the driveway to go in the house, when was the next point you had any chance to see the SUV? Uh, when we were passing it, when you were passing the SUV, where was it located in relation to the house flag pole? Um, directly in front of the house. Okay. Was it anywhere near the flag pole as you drove by? Probably like, sorry, like a car length from that. A car length from the flag pole. Yes. give or take. Is that the middle, right, or left side of the house? Uh, that would be towards the left side of the house. As you drove by that SUV, what was your primary focus? Uh, my sister, sir. Like watching her get in. You were being attentive to her getting in. Correct, sir. As you watched her get in, did you glance or see anything else in your vision as you were watching your sister? I saw that there was a woman in the driver’s seat of the black SUV in front of me um sitting there with her hands on the steering wheel at 10 and two. Did you get a good enough look that you would remember who that person was or was it too brief to identify? Too brief, sir. You saw the person in the SUV with their hands on the wheel. How did you see them inside the car? Uh their dome light was on. Do you know how a dome light comes on in a vehicle? Uh yes, sir. either you press it yourself or if there is a door open. When you had the glance or the glimpse of the the woman in that SUV holding the whale, you said 10 and two, correct, sir. Could you describe for us what that means? Uh just like a clock. Um just the hands on the clock like 10 and two. I was just waiting for the siren, your honor. If I could show exhibit three to Mr. Nagel, sir, do you recognize that address? Uh, yes, sir. And what is that address? That is 34 uh Fair View Road. Do you recognize the flag pole? Yes, I do, sir. Thank you. When you drove by and you said you saw a woman sitting in the front and the dome light was on, did you see anybody else in the car? Uh, no sir. Were you looking for anybody? No sir. Um, could there have been somebody else in the vehicle at that time? There could have been. Yes. Could there have been someone standing outside the door? Yes, there could have been. When you saw the person, were you studying the person? No. How long of a time did you have to take a glimpse of that person? 5 10 seconds maybe. Okay. Um, now I want to ask you some questions about the entire time you were parked at the foot of drive of the driveway until the point that you left Fair View. From when you first stopped at the driveway at Fair View until the point that you left and were no longer in front of that property, did you ever see any person get out of that SUV that that was in front of you? Uh, no I did not, sir. Did you ever see anybody, any man ever cross the front yard towards that home? Uh, no I did not, sir. Did you ever see any man ever enter or stand in that front door? Uh, no I did not, sir. Did you ever see anybody walk across the front yard to the side door? Objection. Allow it. Uh, no I did not, sir. Did you ever see anybody enter that side door other than your sister? No, I did not, sir. As you were parked at the driveway the entire time, that generally five minute time, did you ever see anybody get out of the SUV and walk down the street towards the driveway? Allow it. Uh, no, I did not, sir. Did you ever see anybody walk past your truck and up the driveway? No, I did not, sir. Did you ever see any person other than your sister outside of those vehicles the entire time that you were at Fair View? Objection. I’ll allow it. No, I did not, sir. I have no further question. Thank you, Mr. Unetti. Thank you. Good morning, sir. Good morning. You testified about having seen a black SUV uh before the vehicle that you were in entered Fair View Road at around midnight on January 29th of 2022. Correct. Correct, sir. Objection. That’s not facts and evidence. That’s okay. Uh the witness’s answer is what matters. Is that right? Uh yes. Okay. You first saw that black SUV when it was coming toward your vehicle when you were on Cedar Crest, correct? I’m I’m sorry. Let me let me repeat that because of the siren. Uh you first saw that black SUV when it was coming toward the vehicle that you were in on Cedar Crest. Correct. Correct, sir. Your friend Ricky Dantano was driving at that time. Dantano, sorry. Dantano. Yes, he was driving at the time. Correct, sir. M. Thank you. Yes. All right. Go ahead. Thank you. Ricky doesn’t drink, correct? Uh, he does. He wasn’t drinking that night. Uh, he may have had one or two. Okay. But he appeared to be driving safely. Yes, sir. And you also had a chance to observe the black SUV at that time as it was facing you. Correct. Yes. Uh when you saw it on Cedar Crest, you didn’t know who was driving it at that time. Correct. No, I couldn’t see. But your observations of the black SUV at that time were that whoever was driving it, that person appeared to be driving safely as well. Correct. Yeah, I would assume so. Yes. Uh, one of the first things you noticed about the black SUV was uh that it was in front of you on Cedar Crest and both Ricky’s F-150 and the black SUV were basically converging on Fair View at about the same time. Yes, sir. Uh, the black SUV appeared to be going at a safe speed. Yes. It appeared to be properly staying within its lane. Yes, I would say. Yeah. Uh, and when it was time for Ricky to take a left onto Fair View, he actually put on his left blinker, or not left blinker, but both his blinker, flashed his lights, uh, to, uh, signal that it was, uh, okay for the black SUV to cut in front of it. Correct. Yes, sir. And he actually did have his left blinker on at that time. Correct. Prior to doing that, and the black SUV had its right directional on, correct? Yes, sir. And when both cars have their directionals on indicating they’re going down the same street, the black SUV did not suddenly cut in front of Ricky’s vehicle until the flashing of the lights. Correct. Correct, sir. Both cars appeared to be operating safely. Correct. Correct, sir. Uh, and once the lights were flashed, there was nothing about the operation of that black SUV that told you that the driver appeared to be confused about what the flashing meant. Correct. Correct, sir. Uh, the black SUV didn’t hesitate at that time. It just proceeded on to Fair View in front of you. Correct. Correct, sir. And it did so in a safe manner. Correct, sir. And the black SUV in that sense got ahead of Ricky’s vehicle. Correct. Correct, sir. And once you got to the Albert home, you noticed that the black SUV was parked outside the Albert home. Correct. Uh, correct, sir. And at that time, the snow had not yet started sticking to the pavement. Correct. Correct, sir. You could see the pavement in both the driveway and the street. Correct, sir. You could also see the grass on the lawn. Yeah, for the most part. Yes. The snow was only just starting to accumulate on the grass. Correct. Correct, sir. Uh, and with that little snow on the ground, you saw no tire marks behind the SUV. Correct. No, sir. Uh, in fact, you saw no tire marks in the street at all. Correct, sir. Um, may I have the map displayed, please? Is it in evidence already, Mr. Anetti? Um, may we approach? Okay. Is that okay? Thank you. Okay. Uh, can you enlarge that, please? Yeah. Actually, yeah. You know what? If we could enlarge it, uh, so you don’t have to show Chapman. Just show Cedar Crest and Fairview and maybe pull it in a little bit to the right now. The other way. See if that works. Okay, that’s much better. Um, I don’t know how your eyes are, sir, but are you able to read the street names on uh to be honest? No, I can’t see that far. Okay, if I suggested to you that the top street horizontal uh going down from right to left was Cedar Crest and that the street where the red arrow is is Fair View Road. Would that orient you? Yes, sir. And it would it be fair to say that before you actually were coming down Cedar Crest Road as you look at this map from right to left. Correct. Correct, sir. And in that sense, you were traveling west on Cedar Crest. Correct. Yes. You turned south onto Fair View. Correct. Correct, sir. And you were still facing south when you parked in front of 34 Fair View. Correct. Correct, sir. And that means that when you’re sitting in that vehicle on Fair View Road, if you were going to walk to the house or look to the house, you would be walking or looking in a westerly direction. Correct. Uh from where I was in the vehicle? Yes. Uh yes. So to my right. Yes. Okay. And so when you were looking for Julie to come out, you were looking to the west. Correct, sir. All right. Um your honor, I would offer that into evidence. We’re going to have a hard copy printed out for the jury after this examination. Okay. So, we need something for the court reporter to Sure. All right. We will take care of that. Thank you. All right. And you can put the lights back on and and you can take that down. All right. So, it will go ahead will be 49. 49. Thank you. Uh, and sir, it took a couple of minutes for Julie to come out after Ricky parked the F-150. Um, yes. When she did come out, you opened the door and you had a conversation with her while she stood between the door and the passenger compartment of the F-150. Repeat that, please. Sure. Um, when when she did come out, she approached the F-150. Correct. Correct, sir. And you were in the passenger’s compartment, right? Correct, sir. You opened up the passenger’s door. Correct. Correct. And she sort of sort of you stayed in the vehicle, right? Correct. I never left. And she came sort of into like the crook of the uh the door and the passenger’s compartment. Yes, sir. All right. Uh you had a chance How close did she get to you? I I could have popped on her nose if I wanted to. Okay. Uh and you had a chance to observe her and size her up. Correct. Correct, sir. You spoke to her for maybe about five minutes was your best estimate? Um I wouldn’t say five. I’d probably say two or three. Okay. But in any case, you did have a chance to to observe her, correct? Yes, sir. And it was clear to you that your sister Julie seemed like she had had a few drinks, correct? Uh I mean, yeah, it was 12:30 in the morning. So, yes. And she called you for a ride, right? Yes. She knew that Ricky was driving, right? Uh, and when uh you arrived there, there was a discussion about whether she’d actually take the ride, right? Correct, sir. Uh, if she was just going to come out and take the ride, there would have been no need for the conversation. Correct. Correct. Uh, but do you recall previously testifying that you were out talking to Julie for over 5 minutes? I would not say over five minutes. No. Okay. Uh, do you deny that it was about five minutes? Objection. I’ll allow it. Do you deny it was about five minutes? It could have been. Okay. I’m not. Fair. Fair enough. Uh and you talked with her about whether she wanted to go in the truck and leave with you. Correct. Correct, sir. You also talked about whether instead you, Heather, and Ricky would go into the house to join the gathering there. Correct, sir. Uh there was a back and forth that you really thought was unnecessary. Correct. I wouldn’t say it would be unnecessary. It’s just a common question if we want to come in and have a drink. Um, you you have testified in the past that Julie can be kind of a pain in the ass. Correct. I mean, all siblings can be. Yeah. Uh, in any case, Julie decides to go back inside and you decide to leave. Correct. Correct, sir. Ricky did not speed up the street at that time. No, he just gradually pulled out. Correct, sir. His direction of travel took him right past the black SUV that was now in front of you. Correct. Correct, sir. Um, he passed the black SUV on the left. Correct. Correct, sir. And you were in the front passenger’s seat at that time still. Correct. Correct, sir. So, you were closest to the black SUV of the people that were in your vehicle as you passed it. Correct. Correct, sir. Yes. And you were closest to the driver’s side of the black SUV. Correct. Correct, sir. Uh, you noticed that the interior dome light was on. Correct. That is correct, sir. That lit up the whole front compartment of the SUV, did it not? Yes, it lit up the driver’s seat and the passenger seat. Correct. Uh, all I could see was the driver at the time. Understood. But the the light wasn’t just shining just on the driver. It was there was it wasn’t pointed at the driver. I would say they were both lights that go down of both seats. Correct. They were on. Yes. Okay. So, you could see both seats in the front driver’s uh compartment. I couldn’t see past the woman. Well, you only saw one. I only saw a woman. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt you. Yes. No, no, no, no problem. Um, it allowed you to see into that front compartment. Yes. All right. And you saw one person inside the car at that time? Correct, sir. It was a woman with long hair in the driver’s seat. Correct. Correct, sir. And she looked like she was alone. Yes. You didn’t see anybody else in the SUV? No, I did not, sir. You certainly didn’t see a 6’1 in man in the SUV in the passenger seat. Correct. Correct, sir. In fact, you saw that the passenger seat was empty. Correct. The woman in the passenger seat was staring straight ahead. Correct. Uh, not in the passenger seat. She I’m sorry. That was Thank you for catching that. The woman in the driver’s seat was staring straight ahead. That is correct, sir. Um, you didn’t see her lip mo her lips moving as if she were talking. Correct. I wasn’t looking for that. Just happened to see a woman figure with her hands like this. Okay. Facing straight. Correct, sir. Um, you had no music on in Rick Ricky’s truck at that time, correct? No, sir. Uh, Ricky had turned the music down when Julie came out so that you could actually speak to her. Correct. That is correct, sir. Um, and when you got close to that SUV while you were passing it, you didn’t hear uh any arguing there. Correct. Correct. You didn’t hear any yelling. Correct. No, I did not. You didn’t hear any screaming? No, I did not. You heard noises within that SUV at all? No, I did not. Sir, I have no further questions. Thank you. All right, Mr. Brennan. Sir, you mentioned you were at that address around 12:30. That is correct, sir. Um, and you offered us that you were there for about 5 minutes? Yes, sir. Do you know the exact time you left? No. Off the top of my head right now, no. Was it around that time? Yes, sir. Would it be fair to say you don’t have certainty whether it was 12:35, 12:32, 12:00? It’s probably before 12:35. Roughly between 12:30 and 12:35. You could still see the ground. Given the weather? Yes, sir. Was there snow starting to fall? Um, just starting. Had you been outside earlier that night? Yes, sir. And the ground that you could see, do you know how hard it was? The ground. The ground. Yes. Do you know if it was soft or hard? Like the road. The ground. The grass. The lawn. Oh, I I don’t know. I mean, it was a cold night, so I mean, I assume it’s hard. around that time around 12:30 when you left. Um, was there inches of snow? No, there was not inches of snow. No, I could still see the grass coming through the snow. I mean, it just like a coating. You could still see the bare ground. Correct. Sir, when you saw that SUV in front of you for the time that you were there, that 5 minutes, did you ever and you said that you saw brake lights at times? Mhm. Did you ever see at that point missing parts of its tail lights? No, sir. I wasn’t observing the vehicle like that. When the tail lights were on, when the brakes were on, what color was the glow? Uh, red. Sir, did you ever see a missing piece where it was white instead of red? No, sir. Over near the flag pole where you saw this SUV, did you see any human being, any person lying on the ground near the flag pole? No, sir. When you drove by the SUV, you said you couldn’t see past the woman. Um, could you would see inside the SUV when you drove past? Repeat yourself. When you drove past the SUV, you saw a woman in the driver’s seat. Yes, that is correct. Um, you didn’t see anybody else? No. Do you know if anybody else was in that SUV? Could have been. I’ll allow it. It could have been. from when you were driving by uh the SUV and you could see inside the driver’s seat and saw the woman, could you see on the other side of the SUV if there was anybody standing on the other side of the SUV? No, sir. Was there anything obstructing your view as you drove by and saw the woman to prevent you from seeing on the other side of the SUV? The woman and the vehicle itself. You mentioned that there was a dome light on in the SUV. Yes, sir. Was the driver’s side door open? No, sir. Drive by. No, sir. It was closed. Can I have exhibit 16, please? Did you ever see this man at any point? No, sir. Oh, sorry. walking across the yard, going to a door, or entering the house the entire time you were there. Objection. Uh, no, sir. I’ve never seen you. Oh, I’m sorry. Sorry about that. Sorry. Could you take that down, please? And after you left, you never went back that night, did you? No, sir. Thank you. Just briefly um on those issues, sir. Um you just testified on crossexamination before Mr. Brennan stood up again that you saw that the passenger seat was empty. Do you remember that? Uh yes. You’re not changing that testimony? No, I’m not changing that. No. Thank you. Thank you. All right. You are all set, Mr. Nagel. Thank you very much. Your next witness, Mr. Brennan. Thank you, your honor. Conewell calls Heather Mason. You sound the evidence of the court jury in the case now for the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth. I do. Whenever you’re ready. Thank you, your honor. Good morning, ma’am. Good morning. Could you please introduce yourself to the jury? Hi, I’m Heather Maxon. M Axo N. How old are you? I’m 31. Do you live in the area? I do. How long have you lived in the area for? My whole life. Do you know a person by the name of Ryan Nagel? Yes. And how did or how do you know him? Uh, I dated him a few years back. I want to have you take us back a few years to January 28th during January 29th, 2022. Do you remember that evening? Yep. Where were you earlier that evening on January 28th, 2022? Uh, we were at Ryan’s parents house, just hanging out. Whose parents? Ryan’s. Right. Were you with anybody else besides Ryan and his parents? Uh, eventually we met up with friends. Where? At local restaurants. Did you end up at one restaurant or bar in particular at the end of the night? Um, we were first at CF McCarthy’s and then we went over to the hillside. Were you drinking? Yes. Do you remember about how many drinks you had? No. Did the alcohol affect your perception or your memory at all? Most likely. Yes. Do you feel like you were impaired in any way? I believe so. Yes. After you left the establishments, after they closed, did you go somewhere? We went to pick Ryan’s sister up, Julie, from a friend’s house. She needed a ride. Before you went up went to pick Ryan’s sister up, did you have other plans before that? Sorry, could you repeat the question? Yes. Before the decision was made to go pick up Ryan’s sister, was there other plans that you were No, that Okay, that was just the plan to go get her. Yes. Do you remember generally or specifically what time that was? Late midnight. Okay. Do you remember the time exactly? No. Is there any marker in your mind that would help you remember exactly what time it was? Not necessarily. No. So, is that a generalization or a guess? Yes. When you went to pick up Ryan’s sister, do you know where you were going? No. Were you driving? I was not. Who was driving? our friend Ricky. Where were you sitting? In the back seat. What kind of vehicle was it? It was a truck. Are you familiar with the area? Not necessarily. No. Do you remember at some point taking a turn onto the road? Yes. That had the house where you were going to arrive? Yes. How do you remember that? Um, just a a visual bystander and I’m aware of my surroundings, I’d say. Did anything happen that made you remember the turn before you got onto that road? There was another vehicle also on the road coming from the opposite direction and we had let that other vehicle turn onto the road before us. Describe in a little detail what happened at that intersection. Um, so I don’t recall the name of the street that we were on before we took the left onto the street that the house was located, but the car coming from the opposite direction was taking a right onto the same street. So, we had somewhat yielded to the car coming from the opposite direction to have let them take a turn onto the street before us. Did you see if the driver of either vehicle gave in any indication to the other vehicle who should go first? I I don’t necessarily recall, but I’m assuming maybe um I don’t want you to assume. That’s okay if you don’t recall. Sure. Who turned first onto the road, Ricky or the other car? The other vehicle. The other vehicle. Do you know what type of vehicle it was? It was a a big like SUV. A bigger car. The SUV turned before you? Yes. Before or when the SUV turned, did you get to see inside the vehicle? I did see inside the vehicle. Yes. Could you describe for the jury what you remember seeing? I saw a male and a female inside the car. Where was the female? Female was driving and the male was in the passenger seat. Was the male in the front passenger seat? Yes. Were you able to recognize either the female driving or the male in the front passenger seat? Recognize. Yes. Um, I’m not sure if I understand the question. Did you know who they were? No. Strangers? Yeah. When they turned and then Ricky turned after them, how far ahead of Ricky were they? Um, uh, maybe a 100 ft. Could you see them the entire time? No. When you drove to Fairview, how long did it take after the turn? Uh, a couple minutes. It took a couple minutes to get from Cedar Crest to Fair View. Oh. That’s okay. Yeah, I’m not sure. Okay. Uh, when you arrived at Fair View, where did Ricky stop? Outside the house. On the street. Do you remember where on the street in relation to the driveway? No. The other vehicle, the SUV. Was it in front of you or behind you when you stopped? It was in front of us. When it was in front of you, did you notice anything about the vehicle? No. Did you notice anything about its lights? No. Did you see whether the interior light, the dome light was on or off? I did as we were leaving before you left. No. Did you ever see that dome light come on? No. Did you notice anything about the brake lights? No. Did you notice anything about the vehicle’s tail lights, whether they were intact or broken? Nope. When you arrived at that address, do you know the street address? I do not. Okay. When you arrived at that address, what happened next? I believe Ryan had reached out to Julie saying, “We’re here. Um, you know, time to go.” And so, she had come outside and we had a short conversation and she decided that she was actually going to stay at the house. She had invited us in. Um, but I had said that I didn’t want to go inside. I just wanted to go back to the house. From the time you first arrived at that address and until the time you left, did you ever see anybody get out of the SUV that was in front of the truck? I did not. Did you ever see anybody travel across the front yard to the doorway from that SUV? Nope. Did anybody ever walk by on the street, walk by the truck in front of you, behind your truck, and walk on the driveway? No. Well, besides Julie. Sorry. Julie. Julie is the only person that you saw in the driveway that night. Yes. And then you left. Yes. When you left, did you drive by the SUV? We did. When you drove by, what were you looking at? My surroundings. Okay. What did you see? I saw the female that I saw beforehand also still in the car. Where did you see her? In the driver’s side. Okay. Was there at that point any lights on inside the car? There was. Yes. What’s the dome lights? Was the driver’s side door open? Not to my knowledge. Did you see anybody else inside the SUV? I did not. Was there anybody else inside the SUV? You didn’t see anybody inside the car besides the driver? No. Next question. Do you know whether there was anybody else inside the SUV at that time other than the driver? No. Did you look in and study the interior of the SUV? No. How long did you look inside the SUV for when you passed? It was just passing. So, I don’t know, a couple seconds. Did you see if there was anybody or uh a man standing outside the door of the SUV? I did not. Outside the door? No. Did you see anybody lying on the front lawn? No. Thank you. I have no further questions. Good morning, ma’am. Good morning. Before Ricky turned on to Fair View Road, you saw the SUV in front of Ricky’s truck, facing it, taking a right-hand turn in front of you. Correct. Correct. And at that point, you had an unobstructed good look at the driver and the front passenger. Correct. Correct. And you could see that there was a female driving and a male in the front passenger seat at that time. At that time. Yes. Now, ultimately Ricky’s car took a left after the other SUV took a right. Correct. Yes. And eventually when you reached the house where Julie was, you saw that that SUV was in front of that house, parked now further down ahead of you. Correct. Correct. And it took Julie a couple of minutes to come out of the house, I’d say. So, yeah. Do you recall whether there was any conversation at that time between you, Ricky, and Ryan? Possibly. I don’t recall or remember what, but most likely. Yes. And you don’t remember whether you were participating in a conversation or what was discussed? Not necessarily. No. Um, you had your cell phone with you that night? I did. Uh, like many of us, is uh your cell phone something that you tend to check when you’re bored or there’s a break in a conversation or you’re not actively engaged in a discussion? For sure. And while you were waiting for Julie to come out of the house, do you recall whether you were checking out any web page or Instagram or text message or app on your cell phone? I don’t recall. Um, can you testify with certainty that you were not checking your cell phone during that period of time? Not with certainty? No. Um, and so you you can’t say for sure how long if you did check your cell phone, you would have been looking at it while waiting for Julie. Correct. Correct. Uh, and no one’s asked you for your phone so that they can analyze what you were doing during that period of time outside 34 Fair View. Correct. Correct. All right. Well, you testified that you didn’t see anybody get out of the SUV or approach the house. Correct. Correct. Uh you obviously don’t know what did or didn’t happen before you, Ricky, and Ryan arrived there. Correct. Correct. Uh while you were uh parked near the driveway, uh you weren’t thinking that you had to watch the SUV every second in case you were later asked to describe what was going on with that vehicle. Correct. Correct. And that SUV was the same vehicle that you recognize as previously having a female driving and a male in the passenger seat. Correct. Correct. And as far as you know, you didn’t know either of them at that time. No. Um, fair to say that what they were doing was their business and you weren’t particularly interested in what they were doing. Correct. Correct. Uh, you were there to pick up your boyfriend’s sister. Corre correct. Yes. It was late and you were tired. Very much so. Yes. You had had a good amount to drink. Mhm. You you did not want to continue to drink and socialize. Correct. Correct. Fair to say you were looking forward to ending the night at that point. Yes. And so you were more f uh focused on hopefully getting Julie in the car so you could leave than anything that was going on in the SUV, right? Yeah. Exactly. Then Julie came out and it wasn’t as simple as her just jumping in the vehicle and leaving. Correct. Correct. There had to be a discussion. Right. Right. And she came out to to speak to the three of you for about five minutes or so, I’d say. Like a back and forth about who’s going where. Yeah. And when Ricky was pulling away, uh, you looked over to the SUV and you saw that the interior light was lighting up the front compartment. Correct. Correct. And it was then that you looked over and you saw a female in the driver’s seat. Correct. Yes. Um, you did not see any person in the passenger seat. Correct. Correct. And you certainly did not see a 6-ft tall offduty police officer in the SUV at any point on Fair View Road. Correct. I have nothing further. Thank you. Thank you. Anything Mr. Brown? When Ricky was speaking to Julie and you were in the back cabin of the truck, what direction were you facing? I don’t recall. Were you paying attention to the conversation with Julie? I was probably in and out of the conversation. Yes. Um, were you facing the direction of the house in the SUV or were you facing the opposite direction? I don’t think I was facing the opposite. When you were in the cabin of the car and Ricky was having the conversation with Julie, did you ever see anybody other than Julie come in or out of the house? No. Objection. Allow it. No further questions. Thank you. Miss Maxon, you are all set. Thank you. Thank you so much, Mr. Brennan. Your next witness calls Katie. Sorry. Why don’t we take our morning recess? 20 minutes. All eyes, please. J, close your notebooks and follow me. Court is back in session. You may be seated. Do you have your next witness? I do. Going to call Sarah Levenson. Oh, okay. Thank you. the evidence to the court and jury in the case hearing the truth, the whole truth and nothing about the truth. I’m sorry. All right, Mr. Brennan, whenever you’re ready. Thank you, your honor. Good afternoon, ma’am. Good afternoon. Could you please introduce yourself to the jury? Um, my name is Sarah Levenson. For the court reporter, would you mind spelling your last name? So, it’s Sarah with an H and then L E V I N S O N. Miss Levenson, do you mind if I ask how old you are? Uh, I’m 26. I’ll be 27 next month. Do you work? Yes. What do you do? I’m a nurse. How long have you been a nurse for? About four years. Before you became a nurse, did you go to school? Yes. Tell us a little bit about your educational background, please. Um, I got my bachelor’s at Regis College. Do you know a person by the name of Ryan Megal? Yes. How do you know him? Um, he’s one of my good friend Julie’s older brothers. You mentioned Julie. What’s Julie’s name? Juliana Nagel. Are you friends with Julie Nagel? Yes. To this day? Yes. Were you with Miss Nagel back on January 28th, 2022? Yes. I want you to take us back to that day, the earlier evening hours of January 28, 2022, maybe around 5 or 6:00 p.m. Did you have a plan that day? Yes, we were. We, as in myself and Julie, were going to Brian Albert Jr.’s house um to celebrate his birthday, which was the next day. Who was Brian Albert Jr. to you at that time? One of my good friends. How long had you known Brian Albert Jr. for? Um, at that point probably eight or nine years, I would say. Did you attend school with him? Yes. High school. Is that when you met Brian Albert Jr. in high school? Yes. Who was going to Brian Albert Jr.’s house with you? Um, just myself and Julie. Did you have a general plan for that evening other than to visit your friend and celebrate his birthday? It was kind of up in the air if we were going to stay there or go somewhere. Um, but we were definitely going and celebrating with him. Do you know the address where Brian Albert Jr. lived? Yes. Can you share that with us? 34 Fair View Road, I believe. Road. Had you been to 34 Fair View Road before? Yes. Did you know Brian Albert Jr.’s family? Yes. Had you met them in the past? Yes. How often had you met with them before? Um, well, I was friends with him for, like I said, about eight years. So, I knew his older sister, Caitlyn, pretty well. We went to high school together, but the younger siblings, um, I don’t believe we overlapped in school. And then his mother I had met, I mean, a good amount of times. Um, and then his father too, I would say. How many times would you estimate you had been over 34 Fair View prior to the night of January 28, 2022? Um, over the years maybe like 20, I don’t know. Do you remember what time you arrived at 34 Fair View Road on that evening? It was between 7 and 8:00 at night. Who did you go with? Um, myself and Julie Nagel. Could you tell us how both you and Julie Nagel got from where you were living, your home, to 34 Fair View? Yes. Julie’s dad drove us. When you first get to 34 Fair View Road, before you walk in the front door, what’s the weather like outside? Um, it was cold, but it wasn’t raining or snowing or anything. No snow on the ground? No. Um, when you walked in the door, did you go in the side door or the front door? The side door. Okay. Take us through walking into the house. What do you see? Um, so we walked through the side door and then it’s their like family room they call it. Um, with like the TV and everything. And then at the back of the family room is like a sliding glass door out into their porch. And then if you turn left, um it’s like the kitchen/d room. Um and then there’s a back door. There’s like a small bathroom over like near the back door. And then if you walk straight through, it’s the front door, the stairs, um the door to the basement, and then they called it like the library is like their formal um living room. If you walked in the front door, would the stairs leading to the next floor upstairs be right in front of you? Yes. If you were going to go downstairs, would you walk around that staircase to the back side of it? Um, I don’t believe the back, but the side. Okay. You mentioned you walked in the side door near the garage. When you walk in the side door, you’re in a a living room, did you say? Yeah, their family room they call it. Yeah. Can you walk into the garage from the family room or do you need to go back outside to get into the garage? No, you would have to go back outside. So, there’s no door in that family room that leads directly to the garage. No. After you walked into the family room, did you stay there or did you go somewhere? Um, we stayed there for a little bit, like 10, 15 minutes probably. Tell me who’s in the house when you get there. Um, it’s Brian Junior. um his mother Nicole, his sister Katlyn, and then his aunt Julie. What do you do? Um I think we were just sitting on the couch um hanging out waiting to see what the plan was to see like when other people were going to show up. Did other people arrive or did people leave before other people arrived? Um Brian’s mom, sister, and aunt left before anyone else arrived. Do you know generally around what time his aunt and mother and sister left? Um we got there, like I said, between 7 and 8. And they probably left within 20 minutes of us getting there. Okay. So, I can’t say for sure. when his sister and mother and aunt left. Um, was it just a time when it was you, Julie, and Brian Albert Jr. alone? Yes. Were you doing anything other than watching TV? Were you eating, drinking? Um, I don’t think we were eating yet cuz we ordered later on food. Um, but we might have been drinking. Tell us what happens over the course of the next couple hours. Um, so at some point, probably between like 8 and 9, um, four other girls showed up. Um, so Courtney Alba came, um, by herself, and then Katherine Dudy, Emily Fabiano, and Mary Kent all came together. Are those friends of Brian Junior’s? Yes. Did you know who all of them were? Yes. Were you friendly with them? Um, some of them. Yes, we were all friendly but not friends. That makes sense. So, what’s the atmosphere like when the visitors come? Um, celebratory, light, joyful. It was fine. Were people drinking alcohol? Yes. Okay. And at some point, did you order food? Yes. And did anybody else come at that point? Any other friends or family? No. Did one of uh Brian Jr.’s cousins come at some point? Yes. Is that later? Yes. So, over the next course of the next couple hours, eating and drinking, anything significant happened? No. Any arguments, any tension, any problems? No. Was it a positive night? Yes. At some point, did anybody else come to the house? Um, later on, yes. Okay. About what time? Um around midnight. So before midnight it’s a group of young people having a party. Yes. Any trouble? No. Did the friends of Brian Albert Jr., the four women, did they leave before midnight? Yes. What time did they leave? Between I would say 11 and 11:30. Did they uh arrive and leave as a group or did they arrive and leave separately? Um the three girls that I mentioned that came together, Catherine, Emily, and Mary all left together and then Courtney left I believe before them um separately. I want you to tell us generally where were you spending most of your time that night? The eating and the drinking and the party in the kitchen/d area. Is there a table in the kitchen? Yes. Were you sitting at that a seat at that table at that point? We were more around the island, but um later on, yes, I had a seat at the like kitchen table. If you’re in the kitchen seated at the table, can you see outside? Um not really. Um, if I looked like through the windows above the sink of the kitchen, um, I guess I could if it was light out and then the windows like to the front of the house had a little like half curtain. I don’t know what it’s called thing on it. So, I could see like above that, but not if you were to walk to the windows in the living room area. What area was it? Did you say the the half window? The dining room. If you were to walk to those windows, could you see outside? Yes. Would you be able to see the driveway? Yes. Flag pole? Uh, yes. Street? Yes. The door. Do you remember the front door if it was solid or glass? Um, they have like a storm door that’s glass and then a solid regular door. If you opened up the solid door and looked, could you see through the glass door to the front yard? Yes. At any point, did you have a chance to look outside that night? No. If you’re in the living room, I’m sorry, the kitchen. Can you see where the basement access is? Uh, yes. Can you see the backyard door? Uh, yes. You mentioned that the visitors, the young woman that came to see Brian Jr. left. After they left, did somebody else come to or arrive at Fairview? Um, after they left. Yes. And who was that? Um, it was Brian’s father, his name is also Brian. Um, Mr. Higgins, um, Brian’s mother came back, his sister Kaitlyn, um, and then his aunt Jennifer and his uncle Matt. If I can just step back just a little time before the adult group showed up. Yes. Did any other of Brian Junior’s cousins come to Fairview? Yes. And who was that? Colin. But he showed up um before the girls left. He showed up before the group of young women left. Yes. How long did you see him stay for? Probably half an hour, 45 minutes. Did you get a chance to speak to him? Yes. Did the mood change at all in the house? No. When the adults came to the house, do you know about what time that was? Around midnight. You mentioned that you saw Brian Albert. Is that Brian Albert Junior’s father? Correct. And his mother’s name Nicole. You also mentioned a person by the name of Brian Higgins. Did you know him from before that night? No. Did you meet him that night? Yes. Are you now familiar with who he is and what he looks like from that night? Yes. Uh there was somebody else you said his u Brian Jr.’s aunt and uncle. Yes. And then his sister. His aunt and uncle. What are their names? Jennifer and Matt McCabe. Did you know Mrs. McCabe from before that night? Um, somewhat. Had you ever socialized with her? I don’t believe so. I knew who she was. I don’t know if she knew my name, but I think she knew I was Brian’s friend. Had you seen her before? Yes. Was that in relation to spending time with Brian Jr.? Uh, yes. I believe so. Had you ever seen her or spent time with her outside of Brian Jr.’s presence? No. How about her husband, Matt McCabe? Did you know who he was? I knew who he was, but I don’t believe I had ever met him in person before. No. Anybody else? Any other adults come with that group? No. Do you remember who got back to who came into Fairview first as far as the adult group? Yes. Who? Um, Mr. Albert, Brian’s dad, and Mr. Higgins. And who came next? Um, next, I think they all kind of walked in together. Caitlyn, um, Nicole, Jennifer, and Matt, other than you, Julie, and Brian Albert Jr., had the young group left at that point? Yes. After that group arrived, what happens? Tell us what’s happening inside the house. Um, so it then was Brian’s Junior’s actual birthday. Um, so again, we were celebrating. Um, Caitlyn, his sister, was playing music on one of the speakers. Um, and we were all pretty much sitting or standing around the kitchen table um, talking, socializing. Do you remember what was being played for music? um like 70s 80s type of music. I don’t want to overate it, but were you drinking? Um I don’t believe I was anymore at that point. No. Did you feel impaired at all? No. As the night grew on, was there any problems in the house? No. Any argument? No. Any fighting? No. anything exciting or controversy in any way? No. Did you have a plan that you were going to leave with Julie? Yes. What was the plan? She said that her oldest brother Ryan um would pick us up and drive us home when he was done wherever he was. Did you see at any point before you ultimately left Fairview, did you see your sister leave the h sorry, did you see Julie Nagel leave the house? Yes. Did you actually see her go and leave? Yes. About how long did she leave for? Five minutes or less. Did you see her come back? Yes. Um after she went out of the house and came back in, did the plan change about a ride home with her brother? Yes. What was the new plan? Um, so a little bit before she went out, um, to talk to Ryan, we were talking, um, myself, her, and then Jen, um, were talking about how we were leaving and Julie’s older brother was going to come pick us up, and we were the only ones that weren’t like related to the Alberts there. Um, so like Brian’s friends um, left. So, Jen was like, “Oh, like don’t leave just yet because like we were celebrating Brian’s birthday. Um, if you want, myself and Matt can drive you home a little bit later.” So, we agreed to that. Um, and then Jen said, “Feel free to invite Ryan inside cuz he was already on his way.” Um, so Julie went out to tell Ryan like, “Hey, we’re not coming with you.” Um, but you weren’t outside for the conversation, so you just heard this second from Julie? Yeah. So, from what you saw, Julie went in and out? Yes. For about five minutes? Yes. Okay. Um, why did you decide to stay? Did you want to stay? Um, yeah, I didn’t mind. Did the night continue after Julie came back in and spoke to her brother? Yes. Was the mood any different than it had been the entire night? No. Anything extraordinary or remarkable happen inside that house? No. After Julie went out and spoke to her u her brother and came back in the house, did anybody else come inside the house other than everybody who was already there celebrating Brian Junior’s birthday? No. Did you ever see another man or woman you didn’t know come into that house? No. At some point, uh, there was a decision that you would leave, I I suppose. Yes. What time do you think you left? Generally, between 1:30 and 2 in the morning. Do you have a specific time? Did you look at your watch? Did you know a certain time you left? Um, no. I believe it was closer to 1:30 because I believe I was home by 2, but I can’t say for sure. When you left, uh, tell us what the weather was like when you went outside. Was it the same as when you came in? No, it was snowing. What was the conditions like? Had they changed the wind or uh Yes. temperature? Yeah, it was colder. How much snow was on the ground at that point when you left? Um like I don’t know what dusting or I could still see like some little pieces of grass like sticking out of it. Um, but it was pretty much like the walkway and everything was white. Did you leave by the front door or the side door? The front. You remember that? Yes. Was there any type of hazard or difficulty with you walking? Um, Julie and I walked out together down like the front stoop stairs. Um, and I remember we were arm in arm. I was wearing shoes that didn’t really have traction, so I was looking at my feet. Um, so I didn’t slip and other than that, no real hazard, I wouldn’t say. Whose car or vehicle did you walk to? Um, Jennifer and Matt’s. Did you get in? Yes. Which seat did you get in? Um, the back seat behind the passenger. And where did Julie Nagel sit? Uh, the back seat behind the driver. Did the McCabes get into the car? Uh, yes. Who was driving? Um, Matt. And then Jen was in the passenger seat. Front passenger. Uh, yes. As you were leaving, was there any conversation or joking going on? Yes. So, um, Matt actually forgot his jacket inside, so he went back in. And then um I I believe myself and or Julie turned around just kind of looking um and we saw a lone loaf of bread in the third row. Um so one of us said something to Jen about the loaf of bread um which she had gotten because of the storm. And I believe Jen was turned around looking at us and said something along the lines of, “Does anyone want a peanut butter and jelly?” Joking around. Do you remember that moment having the conversation about the bread? Yes. It stands out. Yes. As you drove out of Fairview, you were in uh the McKay vehicle was in the driveway. Yes. Did it back out or go out forward? No. Backed out. When it backed out and began to drive away, what side of the vehicle was closest to Fair View? Um, you mean the house? Yes. Was it the I’m sorry. Was the passenger side of the McCabe vehicle closest to 34 Fair View, the house, or was it the driver’s side? The passenger. When you drove, did you drive towards the flag pole? Yes. And during that those moments when you were or Mr. McCabe was driving towards the flag pole. Was that the time you were having conversations about the bread or was that a different time? That was a different time. What was happening as you were driving past that area in front of the house? Um, I believe maybe I was on my phone um and then Juliana Julie said um something. Did you ever look out the window near the front yard, near the flag pole area? Um, not like at the front yard, but a little ways up the street. Yes. Um, next to 34 Fair View up the street is 32 Fair View, I believe. So, yes. When you looked out the window, the first time you looked out the window, what were you facing in relation to 32 34 Fair View? What could you see? Um, there’s like a little bit of woods in between the two houses, so it was the trees. Did you notice anything that stood out? No. Ultimately, did you get home that night? Yes. Thank you. I have no further questions. Good morning, Miss Levenson. Good morning. Um, you’ve been longtime friends, as you’ve described, with Brian Albert Jr., going all the way back to high school. Yes. And that high school friendship has percolated into a friendship into adulthood. Yes. Um, you obviously know the entire much of the entire immediate family. Brian Albert senior, his wife Nicole Albert, correct? Yes. You know his uncle Chris Albert? Yes. Uh, you’re familiar with his wife Julie Albert? Yes. Um, obviously Brian Albert and and his cousins the which by the way which cousins are they last names? Um, do I know? Right. Um, there’s the Alberts and then there’s the Galvans, the Rearens, and the McCabes. Okay. You indicated that you’ve been to the Albert home probably that and 34 Fair View. That’s what that’s the the home I’m talking about. Yes. Um, probably you estimated at least 20 times, correct? Over the years. Yes. Over the years. Uh, and you’ve known Brian Albert for well since high school. I mean, in the last 8, 10, 12 years, you’ve been to the house to and from. Yes. You’ve never met or you had never met going into uh January 29th, 2022, you had never met their dog, had you? Their dog. Their dog. Um I not completely sure. Didn’t you testify u about a year ago in another proceeding that although you had been um to the Albert home many times, you had never actually met the dog? Um if that’s what it says I said then yes. Is that because the dog was not really good with strangers? Objection. Sustained. Do you know why you hadn’t met Chloe? By the way, did you know the dog’s name was Chloe? Yes. Okay. Do you know why you hadn’t met Chloe in all those trips to 34 Fairview? No. just wasn’t out and about among the the folks that were in the house when you were there. Yes. Um, when you left 34 Fair View, I want to follow up very briefly on a couple of things that you said just before Mr. Brennan sat down under question by him. When you left 34 Fair View to join Jin McCabe at her invitation to take you home, you left through the front door. Correct. Yes. as opposed to the side door. It’s a little confusing. The front door has the brick stoop and the stairs. Correct. Yes. Okay. Is that the door that you normally would leave through or did you normally leave through the side door? Come and go through the side door. What was your more ready habit and practice? Um, probably the side door. Okay. When you left through that front door, um, there was nothing obstructing your view as you walked out. Correct. Correct. You could see to the left the driveway. You could see to the right over toward the flag pole. Nothing obstructing anything. Correct. Correct. Uh there was a light dusting of snow um at that time when you left just after what time was it? 12 45 1. Uh probably 1:30. Got it. Um so you leave at 1:30. There’s still just a light dusting of snow on the on the ground. Uh yes. The yard is flat. Yes. You could see all the way out to the flag pole. Yes. You didn’t notice anything unusual at that time when you looked out toward the flag pole, walking out of that front door. I didn’t notice anything. I wasn’t looking out at the flag pole. But yes, you were looking in that direction when you walk out the door. Obviously, you’re you’re standing walking out of the door toward the the front yard. Correct. Correct. But as I stated, I was looking down at my shoes in in front of me. Okay. Obviously, then you have to at some point you have to look up to see where you’re going. You have to turn left to go to the driveway. Is that right? Yes. Okay. Then you walk over and and walk parallel to the yard again to walk over to the car. Correct. Yes. And as soon as you walked out of the stoop, you had to figure out where the stairs were. So, make sure you don’t fall down the stairs, right? Yes. But you’re still looking up like normal. Correct. At some point, most likely. My question is, you didn’t see anything unusual in the yard, did you? No. The front yard was at least relatively I know it was dark out, Miss Levenson. It was relatively lit by the interior windows as well as u lights on the outside of the house. Yes. Okay. You indicated that you did in fact get the ride home with Jen McCabe and Matt McCabe. Who’s who brought up giving you a ride home? Was it Jen? Yes. Okay. And she also mentioned it did or did she mention it in your presence to Julie as well? About the ride home? About the ride home? Yes. In my presence. Okay. You said that Matt McCabe was driving, but before he got in the uh the car, he realized he had forgotten his jacket, went back in. Correct. Yes. I don’t I don’t know if he had gotten in the car and then got out or he just opened the door, but yes, he was at the car at least. Yes. So, he had exited by definition, he had had to have exited, pardon me, the house through the front door as you did to go out to the car the first time. Yes. And then he got to the car, then realized he forgot his jacket, walked back toward the front door, went back in the main door. Correct. Yes. You saw that? Yes. Then he once he retrieved or fetched his jacket, he then walked back out that same front door down the stoop uh looking out over the lawn and then over to the car. Correct. I didn’t see him walk back out, but I mean probably. I don’t want to say yes for sure cuz I wasn’t watching him at that point. Understood. No reason to believe that he would have used a different door. Correct. Yeah. Okay. You’re going to hit just a moment. Okay. You were contacted ultimately by law enforcement. to provide an interview. Correct? Yes. That was not until October of 2022. Is that right? Yes. Um, a couple of quick questions about that. Nobody contacted you on January 30th, the day after the incident that you left the house. Correct. No. And when I say nobody, I mean from law enforcement. Nobody contacted you the next week? No. The next month? No. It was nine months later. Yes. When you were finally approached, who was it that conducted the interview? Um, a state trooper, Michael Proctor. Okay. Did Mr. Proctor indicate to you why he waited nine months to contact you? Objection. Let me ask you a different question. Were you confused about the fact that you weren’t contacted? Objection. May we approach? Okay. Mayor. Yes. Thank you. When you were finally um interviewed, uh let me ask a different question. When you were ultimately interviewed in October of 2022, um was that telephonically or was that in person? In person. Was it Were you alone or was there anybody else with you? I was alone. You mean like besides the troopers? Besides the troopers. Uh yeah, I was alone. And had you prepared for that interview with any person or persons before that interview? No. Had you spoken to anybody, Julie or anybody else about the the potential for being interviewed? Um I believe Julie called me to tell me if I may don’t tell me what was said. Did you speak with Julie before the interview? Yes or no? Yes. Okay. And and one more question without telling me any of the words that were used. Was the subject matter the interview? In other words, I’m not asking if you talk to Julie about going and getting the dry cleaning picked up or something like that. Did you talk about the subject of the interview with Julie before you were interviewed? Somewhat. Okay, that’s all I have. Thank you. Anything, Mr. Brennan? Can I have an exhibit for me, please? Do you see the windows on that house? Yes. Do you recognize that house is 34 Fair View? Yes. You were asked whether there was light coming out of the house illuminating. Do you remember that? When I was asked that? Yes. Yes. Was the lights inside the house from your memory illuminating the ground near the flag pole and that fire hydrant? No. When you came out of the house and went to the car, were you looking at or studying the flag pole area or the bushes or the fire hydrant in that area? No. Do you have any reason to be looking over there and studying anything? No. Thank you. All right, Miss Levenson, you are all set. Thank you. And your next witness, please, Mr. Brennan. Thank you, your honor. The comma the court and jury case down here. Good morning. Whenever you’re ready, Mr. Brennan. Thank you, ma’am. Could you please introduce yourself to the jury? My name is Katie Mclofflin. Um, I’m 29 years old. I work for the town of Canton as a firefighter paramedic. Did you study to become a paramedic firefighter? Yes. What? Why did you become interested in becoming a paramedic firefighter? Objection. Oh um I was I enjoy helping people. I um I have some family members who work in the healthc care field and um I just always thought it was interesting and I wanted to do something meaningful with my life. Did you have to have any special training or education to become a firefighter and paramedic? Uh yes, you do about two years of schooling. Uh it’s divided in between um a dactic portion and then a clinical portion in the hospital and ambulance. So it takes about two years to finish. You completed that? Yes. Did you become a firefighter at the same time you became a paramedic or were those separate educations? They’re separate. I became a paramedic first before I became a firefighter. Did you work as a paramedic before you became a firefighter? Actively in the field? Yes, for a few years. Do you remember about when you first started working as a paramedic? 2016 or 17. And when did you first become a firefighter? Uh 2017. Do you remember when you first began working for the Canton Fire Department? I believe it was May of 2017. Are you still employed by the Canton Fire Department? Yes. In your paramedic training, did you learn how to provide care for people who are in need? Yes. Had you before 2022 responded to different events or people’s homes or or public locations to help people? Yes. About how many calls could you even Could you estimate how many different calls you had been on as a paramedic or firefighter leading into the beginning of 2022? Um, def probably hundreds. I want to ask you some background as a paramedic firefighter, your role as you see it. As a paramedic firefighter, um, are you part of law enforcement? No. Do you investigate crimes? No. Do you write police reports? No. When you’re going to a scene and using your skills to help somebody, um, are you interested in whether or not somebody wasn’t involved or responsible for an event? No. What is your focus when you go to a scene to help somebody? What’s your priority? Um, to help the patient, to save someone’s life. Do you have a chance or do you try to assess the patient, speak to them if they can speak to you? If we can. Yep. Is there times when the person can’t speak? Yes. If a person can’t speak to you, is there a role that you take to try to get information to help assist the person? Um, yes. You would go to a bystander and you try to gather as much information as you can to uh help the patient. More information for us helps the patient uh in their treatment and it helps the hospital um when we bring them there. Is that responsibility or role separate and apart from police work? Yes. As a paramedic firefighter, are you involved in police work at all? No. Sometimes when you go to a scene and you try to help somebody, you write a report in some if you’re in a particular role, you would write the report. Um, so when you go and arrive at a scene, uh, is it fair to say you don’t always write a report? Correct. And the purpose of the report is that to try to help law enforcement? Uh, no. What’s the purpose of when someone would write a report as a firefighter paramedic? Um, depending on the call, there would be a a report written by the officer on the call. Uh, that’s just for logistics and dispatch um information. Um, what the what we responded to and um that’s kind of simple. But the other report would be a a medical report that the lead paramedic would write. Were you working on January 29th, 2022? Yes. Was that an assigned shift for you? Yes. Did you volunteer or ask to work specially that night or was that already assigned? Um, was that assignment already set before that night? Yes. When you get a shift assigned to you, is it night by night, week by week, month by month? Um, it’s just we rotate through if you’re on a group and you rotate through a schedule. It’s set that you work uh 24, you have one day off, you work another 24, you have five off, and then the rotation begins again. So that’s it’s just a set schedule essentially, but it rotates through the weeks. Was January 29, 2022 part of your set schedule? Yes. When you have a set schedule, are you assigned a specific role in the department that might change from shift to shift? Yes. What was your specific role on January 29th, 2022? Um, for that shift, I was on the engine. I was the the backstep. So, there’s an engine driver. Um, there’s an engine uh lieutenant. And then there’s one person in the back uh who’s just a firefighter status. Um and we call that the backst step. As the backst step that night, did you have any specific or general responsibilities if there was a call? Generally, if well, if it’s a fire related call, um you deal with that. If it’s a medical call, uh you’re there to assist the paramedics that are on the ambulance and you take directive from them. Whatever they uh ask you to do or need you to do, you’re just there to assist them to so that they can best focus on the patient. When you arrive at the scene and you’re on the back step, are you basically at the directive of the leader of the group? Yes. That morning around a little after 6:00 in the morning on January 29, 2022, do you remember a call or a tone coming in? Yes. Do you remember what it was for? It was for a man down in the snow or a man unresponsive in the snow. Do you remember leaving the fire department that night? I do. Tell us as you’re leaving what’s happening. Um, so I’m in the engine. The command car with the captain who runs the shift um started to 34 Fair View Road first. Um, the am the ambulance was in front of us and then we were behind the ambulance. Did you know the address you were going to was 34 Fair View Road? Yes. When you left the police station or the fire station, when you got on the back of the truck, did you know at that time who lived at 34 Fair View Road? No. Tell us a little bit about the conditions outside as you rode to 34 Fairview Road. Um, it was raining. I’m sorry, not raining. It was snowing pretty heavily. The snow was there was definitely snow on the ground at that point. Um, it was windy. It was very cold. Was there a storm? Yes. How long do you think it took to get from the fire station to Fair View Road? Probably within five or six minutes when you first started pulling up towards Fair View Road. Did you see anything? Uh, police cruisers and a civilian vehicle. And then um we we pulled up all kind of in front of that. How many police cruisers did you see as you pulled up to Fairview Road? I remember seeing one. There was an ambulance in front of you. Yes. Did the police cruiser have their lights on? Yes. Not just the headlights. Did they have the lights that are often referred to as blue lights or overhead lights? Yes. Did you hear any sirens? No. How about the ambulance? Did the ambulance have emergency lights? Yes. Did you hear any sirens? No. The fire truck. Does the firetruck have emergency lights? Yes. Do you remember if those are activated? Yep. Does the fire engine have a siren? Yes. Was the siren activated? No. Why not? Uh we only use the sirens to kind of clear cars out of the road. Um, so there’s no use to there’s no need to use a siren when there’s no cars on the road. So we’re not just doing it in the middle of the morning to wake everybody up. It would it’s just unnecessary. When you first arrived at Fairview Road and you saw the emergency vehicles, did you see any people? Yes. While you were still in the firetruck or after you got out of the fire truck? Um, probably after I got out. After you get out of the fire truck, where do you go? Um, so I knew that they were working on a patient, so I knew they’re going to need the stretcher, so myself and firefighter uh Walsh went right to the ambulance and retrieved the stretcher and brought it at close as close to the patient uh as we could. At some point, did you see the patient? Yes. Was it he or she? It was a man. Where was he when you first saw him? He was lying supine uh on the side of the road uh off the up off the curb like into a um a lawn. Um how close to him were you when you first saw him? Um well I only made it to the curb where the like where I brought the the stretcher. He was maybe from here to um that table maybe. When you stood on the curb and you saw that man lying, was his feet closest to you, his head or his side? His feet his head would be closer to me. Did you lift the man from the ground? No. Did some of your colleagues? Yes. After you brought the stretcher or the bed to the side of the road. Did you remain there on the side of the road? Um they lifted him on the backboard. They put him on the stretcher and then they pretty much immediately started moving uh to bring him in the back of the ambulance around the area where you first saw this man lying supine on the ground. Were there was there anything other than ground? Were there any uh objects in that I’m sorry. Was there any objects near him? Um, I remember seeing a fire hydrant. Um, and I don’t, that’s all I can really remember. When you mentioned that he was lying about as close to that table as you, would 8 to 10 ft be a fair estimate? I don’t I don’t know that I could say. Okay. At some point, did you receive further directions from anybody on the team asking you to do something? Yes. Um, firefighter Flamati was at I was at the head of the structure with firefighter Flamati. Uh, and he asked me to try to gather more information and kind of see what happened and what’s going on. Did you have someone that you wanted to gather information from? Uh yes, there was a sorry um there was a woman who seemed to be really uh concerned and involved um with the patient’s status and so I just kind of assumed that this would be the person that I could um try to get more information from. Did you take a guess? Yeah. The person that you tried to get more information from, do you see that person in the courtroom today? I do. Could you point that person out and describe an article of clothing they wear? Black suit. Um, and do you see where that person sitting in between? I do. Her attorneys. Did you approach that person? Um, I did. Now, you mentioned you’re not a police officer or criminal investigator. What type of information are you hoping to get generally in these circumstances? Um, some basic demographic info. You can get you can answer a lot of questions by just asking a few very simple ones. Um, so obviously you’re trying to get his name and his date of birth. Um, and then there’s you ask questions if the patient has a medical history. um if the patient takes daily daily medications, if the patient has any allergies. Um and that’s all things that can inform help to sort of maybe explain why this person is in the position that he’s in. For example, if someone says uh reported that he had a heart condition or a seizure disorder or he was a diabetic, that would help us sort of um uh that would that’s relevant information for us for his treatment. and to pass on to the hospital. Did you have a chance to speak with the person that you had pointed out? I did. When you spoke to that person, did you get a chance to ask any of those questions you typically ask? I did. When you spoke to the person, what did they tell you? Um, she gave me his name, his date of birth. Um, she denied him having any medical history or daily medications or allergies. Um, I was kind of moving around. She was moving around the scene. She was So, I was kind of moving around uh trying to gather the information with her. Did she say anything to you in addition to the typical background information that you would try to obtain from somebody? Yes. What did she say? Um, well, I asked another question. We had once we had come to a stop, I asked if there had been any significant trauma that happened that preceded this. Um, and she answered with a series of statements uh that she repeated. I hit him. I hit him. There was a woman next to us who told her to calm down. Stop talking. Calm down. you’re hysterical. So, she repeated, “I hit him.” And a police officer uh asked her, said, “You what?” And she repeated it again. I hit him. Uh and the officer then signaled for his sergeant to come down to the scene or down to where he was. When she first told you that she had hit him, you said there was another woman next to her. Do you know who did you know who that woman was? Not at the time. Do you now know who that woman was? I do. And who was that? Uh, Miss Jen McCabe. Did you know Miss McCabe at that time? No. Do you know her personally now? No. Are you friendly or friends with her in any way? No. You mentioned that when the defendant said, “I hit him.” I hit him. Um, Miss McCabe was trying to intervene. Yes, it appeared that way. What did it appear she was trying to do? Trying to get her to calm down, to stop talking. It appeared that she was sustained. There was disregard that comment. Did Miss McCabe interject verbally? Yes. After Miss McCabe interjected and the defendant made those statements about hitting him, did you persist in getting more information asking to clarify what she meant by I hit him? No, I did not. Why not? Uh, a few reasons. Um, I I felt at that point given the the situation and how how disturbing and it was a very emotional situation. Uh, the woman was very upset. I I didn’t feel comfortable pushing and asking for more. I I just didn’t think that it was the right time for that. And it was also really not my place at that point. And I feel like that was something that the police were that’s more their role. Asking follow-up questions about what she meant by a hit him. Would would that have helped your diagnosis and treatment of the man in any way? It it could have. Um but you made the decision to stop asking her questions. I did. for Mr. Did you ask her any more questions after she said I hit him? I decided not to. At some point after you spoke to the defendant, did you go back to the ambulance and tell anybody, any of your colleagues? I did. And why would you do that? Um, that’s the whole point of me trying to get more information is that I get the information, I bring it back to the people who are treating the patient. Um, so did you go back to the ambulance and repeat that information to your colleagues? I did. Did you have any other further role at the scene as far as helping the man or doing anything else? No. Other than I drove the ambulance to the hospital with the gentleman in the ambulance? Yes. Did you Did you learn who that person was? Yes. Did you know at the time who it was? No. When you got to 34 Fair View, did you recognize the home when you got there? No. Did you later learn who lived at that home? Yes. Did you know somebody who had lived at that home? Yes. Did you know that person lived there prior to that night? Um, I learned that she lived there. Okay. And um, that person that you knew lived there, what is their name? Caitlyn Albert. How did you know Caitlyn Albert? Uh, we went to high school together. We’re in the same grade. Um, we have mutual friends and growing up we had different friend groups, but we those groups would often get together in bigger groups and hang out. Um, I see her in group settings. I socialize with her occasionally. Um, I don’t have a personal relationship with her. I wouldn’t consider her to be a friend of mine, but um, I do see her occasionally because of social events. Um, I don’t have a one-on-one. I don’t I don’t have a close personal relationship with her. Was she a friend on social media back at the time? Uh, yeah. Since this event, have you been on any outings or trips with friends of friends of hers or in a group setting where she was present? Uh, I don’t remember ever seeing her since then. Had you ever um talked to her about your role that night? Never. Did the fact that somebody you knew lived in that house have anything to do with your treatment and care that morning? Not at all. When you saw the man in the back of the ambulance, did you make note whether he was missing any clothing items? He was missing a shoe, a sneaker. I’d like with the court’s permission to play exhibit 4, part of it. Okay, Miss Gilman, if you can start at 6:135. Stop, please. Do you recognize whether or not you’re in that video, ma’am? Yes. What color um jacket are you wearing? Um, I’m in the red and yellow jacket. Okay, continue, please. Stop. Please. There are two yellow jackets. One on the left, one in the middle of the screen. Do you know which one is you? Uh, I’m now in the middle of the screen. Continue, please. Stop, please. Do you know who that is on the left of the screen at the flag pole? Uh, which one? The to the left. If you could play a few more seconds, Miss Gilman. It’s two officers and a civilian woman. Okay. How about on the left? Do you know who that is? Oh, no. Okay. And that time is 6:15. If you can continue, please. Stop, please. Is that you, ma’am, in the yellow? Yes. Okay, continue, please. Stop, please. Do you see yourself on that screen? Yes. What color jacket? The red and yellow. And who’s to your left? Um, Miss Reed. Across from you with the blue or black jacket with the hood. Do you know who that is at this time? Miss McKe. And you didn’t know her at the time? No. Do you see the officer that’s turned away from you? Yes. Do you know who he’s speaking to? Uh, no. Do you know the exact moment that the defendant told you, “I hit him. I hit him. I hit him.” I think it was just prior to that. Okay. Continue. Stop please. Thank you. I have no further questions. Good morning, Miss Mclofflin. Good morning. You indicated that One of the things that is paramount to the lifesaving effort or the medical assistance that you and your colleagues provide is to determine what the cause is of the injury. Correct. um to determine uh just to gather as much information as we can about his history and uh like recent events that could have precipitated how we found the patient. What you said on direct examination was quote what happened and what’s going on. End quote. Correct. Uh yes. So for instance, the what happened you want to find out and differentiate what happened. Is it a gunshot? Can you repeat the question please? Sure. When you’re asking what happened, you’re trying to determine what happened. For instance, one of the things you’re trying to do is differentiate between a gunshot and a knife wound. Correct. Um, yes. Or poison or ingestion of a of a of a poisonous substance or a heart attack. Yeah. In this particular this scenario, it’s next question. Thank you. I’m asking about in general when you’re taking on information, trying to download information at a scene, you’re trying to determine, as you said, quote, what happened, correct? Yeah. That’s important to determine. Correct. Yeah. You want to get the person’s age. You want to get the person’s date of birth. You want to get the person’s allergies, for instance. Yep. But you also, paramount among those, you want to find out what happened. Why are we here? Correct. Yes. Did a person fall out of a tree? Right. Stumbled up a stair step. Right. In doing so, it’s important to relay that information to others as well. You would agree with that, correct? Yes. That’s the whole point, Miss Mclofflin. You want to gather the information and then let others know exactly what happened and document that as best you possibly can so that the life saving efforts or the medical assistance can continue for the patient. Correct. Yeah. You have to share the information that you got with the people who are providing care. And one of the ways you do that is by writing it down. Correct. No. Can I ask you who did you speak with before your testimony today in anticipation of your testimony today? Um, I met with the DA’s office a few times. Um, at the DA’s office, Mr. Brennan, um, a witness advocate and there were different troopers there at different meetings. What did you and Mr. Brennan discuss at these? Well, let me ask you first of all, foundationally, how many meetings were there? Uh, three. Three. When were they? One in maybe January was just a meeting. Um, one a few weeks ago, we reviewed the testimony from the last proceeding. And then yesterday, um, briefly to say that I’m I’m getting called and I’m going today. and if I had any questions. Let’s talk about the the one a couple of weeks ago. Where was that meeting held? Uh at the DA’s office. And you said you reviewed testimony with whom? Um I watched the testimony from the first trial. Uh it was Mr. Brennan, myself, um a witness advocate and perhaps trooper Tully. And you went and went over your testimony at the last proceeding, correct? Uh, we just watched it. Okay. Yeah. Uh, there obviously were questions about that testimony once you finished watching it, I’m guessing. Correct. Um, I guess so. Discussed certain aspects of the testimony. Is that right? Um, yeah. Mr. Rena told you that for instance he was going to bring out on direct examination his examination your relationship with Caitlyn Howard correct uh he said um I will ask you about the relationship and that was in anticipation of me asking about that relationship correct sustained Mr. Brennan tell you that he wanted to make sure that he brought out that information so that it wasn’t brought out on crossexamination by me objection sustained what did Mr. Brennan say about the the reason he wanted to uh bring out the relationship with Caitlyn examination? There was no reason that he gave but he did tell you that he wanted to make sure that y’all covered that on direct examination during his examination. Correct. Objection. Sustain. Did he say something like that? Uh no. Uh did you say something like that? I would like this uh information brought out so it’s not brought on brought out on cross- examination. No. At the last hearing when you testified about a year ago, that wasn’t brought out on direct examination, was it? Objection. Let me approach. Okay. May I continue, your honor? Yes. Thank you. Uh, Miss Mclofflin, we were talking about uh very briefly your your testimony about a year ago. In your testimony a year ago, uh you did not disclose in your initial conversation uh the fact of your relationship with M. Albert, did you I object. I move for an instruction. So, the objection sustained. Next question. Who was it that asked the question about Miss Albert a year ago? Uh, objection. Sustained. Did you tell anyone, Trooper Proctor, any investigator, anybody from the DA’s office last year about your relationship with Caitlyn Albert? Objection. I’ll um No. only when the uh there started to be a lot of um harassment and things that insinuations and stuff that started coming out online. I had said maybe once to them uh that I was concerned I was being harassed. My question, Miss Mclofflin, was before the information was disclosed, which was during first proceeding. Objection. Let’s hear the question. Before that pro that information was disclosed during the first proceeding, in any of your interviews, Michael Proctor or anybody else from the DA’s office, did you disclose, sorry, from the Massachusett State Police or anybody from the DA’s office, did you disclose? Did you volunteer that you had a relationship with people? before the first proceeding? Yeah, I’m saying I told the DA um about the harassment and the insinuations. That was before the first trial when I met with them. How was their harassment and insinuations if it hadn’t been disclosed at the first proceeding? Um because it’s out there everywhere on the internet and has been before the first proceeding. Moftton before you ever testified. That’s my question. Do you understand my question? It’s been going on since before the first proceeding. If you hadn’t testified at the first proceeding, at which point it was revealed, how could you have ever suffered any harassment for it? It wasn’t disclosed yet, Miss Mclofflin. Do you understand? Um, I I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. Who did you tell at the DA’s office? The the the relationship that I um had with Caitlyn Albert had been out there. It had been published and proliferated on the internet. So it’s that was before the first proceeding. And who did you tell at the DA’s office about this before the first proceeding? Um I don’t remember who it was or the meeting, but was it Mr. Lai? It could have been. Do you have a memory of that? Not specifically. I don’t remember who it was. Was it Miss Mclofflin? Like I said, I don’t remember specifically. Miss Laura Mclofflin. No relationship. Like I said, not specifically. Let’s talk about that initial call to 34 Fair View. You responded to the call of a unresponsive mail in the snow. Um that was early morning hours of January 29th. Correct. Yes. Once you were there, Mr. O’Keefe had been placed on a gurnie and moved to the ambulance. Uh, you were instructed to go get information about the victim. Yes. You’ve described in a video the basic scene where you claim that this statement was made by my client. Correct? Yes. That was a situation in which you’re standing there. Reed is standing there is standing across from you and uh Miss Reed was on the right. Miss McCabe was on the left and then there was a officer uh kind of diagonal across from me. Yes. shoticted in that photograph. Um, I recognize me in it. Yes. And when is that approximately? Does that does that approximate what you’re describing? Is that time in which you’re standing there? I’m guessing in the yellow jacket. This reads to your right, the cage to your left, and there’s an officer standing directly across from you. Yes. Is this the time that you indicate that that statement was made around this time? I’d like to have that marked as next in order. Your honor, any objection, Mr. Brennan? None. Thank you. May I retrieve? Yeah. Do you remember the name of the officer that was standing directly across from you when you indicate that this statement was made? I didn’t know but I am aware now. But and and by the way that officer is what? Um, officer Sarif, you’re describing a situation in which you’re standing there. Miss Reed is next to you with an earshot is a uniformed police officer and she said, “I hit him. I hit him.” Correct. Correct. Then he said, “What is that right?” The So it’s I hit him. I hit him. The Miss McCabe interjected and then she said, “I hit him.” Uh, and then the officer said, “You what?” And then she said, “I hit him.” And he said, “Go get goodie down here.” Okay. So, is that three times or four times that you indicate she said I did it? Four times. And you, according to you, you indicate that at the time that we made these statements, she was hysterical and somewhat out of control. Is that right? She was upset. I would say hysterical. Yeah. Did you describe her last year as obviously upset, overly frantic, and almost hysterical? Yeah, I believe it. I remember that. Okay. If we can play exhibit 4. Okay. Starting at 9 mission. Starting at 9:15. It’s about 9:46. Can you stop it? Did you see the two people enter from screen right? Yes. Who is that? That would be myself and Miss Reed. Okay. This is the first point at which you and Miss Reed begin to to um converge with the other two individuals, Miss McCabe and the officer. Correct. Um we I had started trying to gather the information uh prior to this and then she was moving around so I had kind of was following her uh asking the questions and then uh we eventually came yeah here to this point and came to a stop. So my answer uh sorry your answer is yes. This is the point at which you converged with Miss McCabe and the office. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Let’s go ahead and pray. Pause it. You see yourself sort of in the foreground in the bright jacket. Yep. And this reads just on the other side of it. Correct. Yes. Standing there. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Reading the thoughts on M. Mclofflin during that video you that’s the time in which you say or you claimed last year that this was in your words obviously upset overly frantic and almost hysterical correct yes she look almost hysterical in that video um she was well in that video you can’t you that could not explain what that scene was like did she look overly frantic in that video she was frantic throughout the whole scene I think that was um me describing the entire scene. I see. Yeah. So, she did not look overly frantic in that video. She was very She was upset for sure. Uh did was she overly frantic and almost hysterical in that video? Just um I don’t know that I you could really see from that video. Did you see anything that appeared to be overly frantic and almost hysterical? Like I said, that video is not really a good You can’t hear anything, so it’s hard to Was she running around? She had been. I didn’t ask you if she had been. Yeah. There a lot of things that happened. When she’s standing there with you, was she running around? Um, no. She had just stopped running around. Was she justiculating? I don’t know. Do you know what that means? I don’t. Was she using her arms and going crazy with the hands arms and running in circles? She had been. But like I said, she had been. Yeah. But I think asking you about what happened before you got there. I’m asking you what happened when I’m sorry. Question and answer, please. Thank you. I’m not asking you what happened before we got to that video. Right. I’m asking you about the video in which you described her previously as being overly frantic and almost hysterical. Did she look like she was just justiculating and moving her arms and spinning in circles? Not in that video. Okay. Thank you. And according to you, that’s the point at which Miss McCabe said, “I think you need to calm down.” Correct. Yes. And according to you, that’s the point at which Miss McCabe said, “You’re hysterical.” Correct. Yes. Just so I’m clear, who in that video, Miss Reed or Miss McCabe, appeared to be doing most of the talking? Uh, you cannot see from that video who in that video, I don’t know, appeared to be justiculating with her arms. My pot or Miss McCabe? I think Miss McCabe was doing that saying, “You need to calm down. You’re hysterical.” The whole time she’s just stipulating. She’s saying, “Calm down, Karen. You’re being hysterical. Calm down. You’re hysterical.” And just repeating that. She was She was trying to get her to stop and to calm down because of the statement she was making. I see. And she was trying to get her to stop. Calm down. I see. Okay. So, during that entire video, that was probably 40 50 seconds or so. maybe a minute. That’s what you’re saying. Now that Miss McCain was justiculating and saying, “Calm down, Karen. You need to stop making statements. Calm down.” Right. That’s what she was doing. Yes. Okay. Um Well, you’ll agree that Miss Reed was standing relatively quietly to your right, not saying much of anything. No. What she had just said, she had said seemed upset when she said that. And what she said was obviously Miss McCabe was trying to convince her that that was not you need to calm down. Stop saying that. Right in front of a police officer who never said he heard his curtain. Objection. You were standing 18 in 2 feet from officer Sarah. Correct. I don’t know exactly. Well, give me an idea. I mean, 2, 3T, whatever. He was standing near me. And he was standing even closer to my client, wasn’t he? Yes. At this moment when you claim to have heard the I hit him repeated four times. Where was officer Flamati? I’m sorry. Where’s firefighter Flamati and firefighter Nuttle? Uh, in the ambulance with the doors closed. Yes, in the ambulance. This is my ignorance. I’m assuming the engine was running. Yep. I’m assuming that there’s some sort of a heating system inside that ambulance to keep it nice and warm for patients. Yes, that was running as well. That Yes. Yeah. So, that door closed, those doors closed. How many feet away, by the way, from where you’re where we’re looking? How many feet away? How many yards away? I I don’t know. We were fairly close to the ambulance. Further than you and I are from each other right now or closer? I think closer. Okay. How about now? I’m not sure. The ambulance was behind us. I’m not sure how close we were. Right. At least a few yards. Sure. Okay. Uh and those doors are pretty thick secure metal doors that lock. Is that right? Yes. Obviously, when you saw them, I mean, I know you don’t know what was happening inside the ambulance, but when you saw them, firefighter Nuttle and firefighter Flamati were engaged in life-saving measures with Mr. O’Keefe, one doing the bag, one doing chest compressions as they entered into the ambulance, which you did see, correct? Yes. Those doors closed. Would you presume from your experience that those life-saving measures and their focus was on Jon O’Keefe that continued? Yes. You testified that you went back to the ambulance at some point and you told firefighter Clamati and firefighter Nuttle what you claimed to have heard. You told this jury. Correct. Uh I went back to the ambulance after that and I told them what was said and gave them the demographic information that I got. Okay. So, in other words, firefighter Flamotti and firefighter Nuttle heard it from you. You didn’t say it to somebody else and they to reported it to to those two. They heard it directly from you. Correct. I went back and I said I gave the demographics and I said she’s saying I hit him. Right. So, in other words, they heard that from you. I gave them Objection. Is that yes or no? Objection. Did she answer the question? Next question. I want to ask you a couple of questions about your relationship with Caitlyn Albert. You were asked at a hearing about a year ago back in May last year, May 3rd as a matter of fact, 2024 about that relationship. Do you remember what your answer was? No, not specifically. You remember saying In response to the question, who’s Caitlyn Albert? Asked by me. I don’t remember specifically what I said. Did you say I went to high school with someone named Caitlyn Albert? Can I have the page number in line, please? May 3rd, transcript 10-24, lines 2 and three. Did you say I went to high school? named Caitlyn Albert. I believe so. Sure. I have made three. Okay. Thank you, Brennon. Thank you. Yes. Let me wait for you to You see that? Um, yeah. May I? Yes. Did that refresh your recollection as to what your answer was to the question Albert? Yes. Did you say quote I went to high school with somebody named Caitlyn Albert? Yes. Mofflin, that was not a full and accurate statement of your relationship with Caitlyn Albert. Correct. I object. Was that Was that accurate? I mean, that’s a fact. That’s okay. Next question. All right. I’d like to be seen. All right. Go ahead. In answer to that question, the open-ended question, who is Caitlyn Albert? You didn’t offer up in that first initial response, you didn’t offer up, you didn’t say we’re friends, did you? We’re not. You didn’t say that we are in the same friend group, did you? Uh, no. You didn’t say we’ve been friends since high school. No. You said I I went to high school with someone named Kaitlyn Albert. Correct. Yes. Almost as if you just saw her name in a yearbook. No, I don’t agree with that. That’s not true, is it? I mean, that wouldn’t be true. Correct. Because you did know Caitlyn El. That is true. And you asked me if I knew her and I said yes. And you asked me if I’m friends with her and I said I I wouldn’t say friends. You wouldn’t say friends, right? Even as you sit here today, you would not say that you’re friends with Caitlyn Albert. No, you wouldn’t say that you’ve been friends for years. We’ve known each other for years. That wasn’t my question. We’ve known each others for years, but we’re not we are not close friends. We don’t have a relationship just for one-on-one. It’s just group settings. You grew up in the same town together, correct? We did. Went to the same middle school together. Uh, correct. Went to the same high school together. Yes. Socialized with her. Yes. taken day trips with her and others. Yes. You’ve taken beach trips with her and others. Yes. Taken Fourth of July weekend getaways with her and others. Um, I don’t remember that, but one of your best friends named Michaela actually lived with Caitlyn Albert at college, didn’t she? Um, yes. You visited your best friend at that residence where she lived with Caitlyn Albert on more than one occasion, didn’t you? Yeah, occasionally I would go to visit the friends that I had there. You would even spend the night in the apartment building, correct? Um, maybe maybe a handful of times. Yes. You’ve taken photographs with Caitlyn Albert, correct? I’m in pictures with her. Yes. You’ve been to baby showers with Caitlyn Albert over the years. I have attended a baby shower with her. Yes. Celebrations with her over the years, correct? Um, yeah, we we socialize like I said, group settings, social events. I will see her. Your honor, may I approach? All right. briefly. Just one second. Yes. Thank you, your honor. May I approach briefly? Yes. May I stay by the uh the witness stand just so I can take the photographs back. Can you describe first of all take a quick glance through that series of uh pages and tell me if you rec recognize uh what’s the Um, yes. How do you recognize generally? How do you recognize those uh those documents? What are they? Um, objection. Objection sustained. Are those photographs? Oh, the photographs. Next question. Who’s depicting the first photograph? Uh, myself. Do you see photo if every one of those photographs include you? Objection. Does every one of those photographs include Caitlyn Albert? Objection. I’d like a curative instruction. The reality is, Mr. Mclofflin, your relationship with Caitlyn Albert goes back not just weeks or months or years. It goes back a decade or more. Matter of fact, more than um Yeah. I mean, I grew up at where we live in the same town, so we went through all the same school systems and everything. May I approach? Yes, I can have this, please. The reality is you did more Caitlyn Albert than simply go to the same school system. Is that right? Yes. One of these photographs has you on vacation Albert drinking. Correct. Sustained. You’ve been photograph you’ve been photographed with Miss uh Miss Albert on many occasions at many celebrations with your girlfriends. Correct. Like a sidebar, please. I’m going to allow that. Is that right? Been photographed on occasions with uh on occasions. Yes. That wasn’t my question. Go ahead. My question was you’ve been photographed on many occasions and many celebrations with Caitlyn Albert and your girlfriends, that group of girls that were just looked at. Um yeah. And those include, as we went over just a second ago, Fourth of July vacations. Correct. I’m not sure the dates on them. I I didn’t ask you about the dates. I don’t know the dates either. Well, I don’t know that that was that beach is that was a Fourth of July celebration. I’m not sure. Do you see a beach photo with uh American flags in the background? I’m objecting. Sustained. So, you’ve had those photographs represent at least represent some of the celebrations that you have had with Caitlyn Hbert and others in your friend group. Correct. I’m objecting. Sustained. You’ve gone on overnight vacations with Caitlyn Albert. Isn’t that right? Um there was one that I can remember uh one overnight that I can remember with a big group of people. Who was that? Where was that? That was in Maine. It was in Bethl Maine, wasn’t it? Could have been. It was in Maine. Have you been to more than one vacation in Maine with Caitlyn? No, I don’t know. That’s the name of the town. I I don’t remember. You’ve indicated that you’ve had baby showers uh where you’ve attended with Caitlyn Hour, correct? I was invited to a baby shower, not Caitlyn Albert’s, but uh she was also invited to the baby shower. Right. And the two of you posed her photograph together. Correct. Um we posed around the girl that was having the baby, right? You and who else? Uh a bunch of other girls, her her friends. Right. Was one of them Caitlyn Albert? She was in the photo. Yeah. She’s standing right next to you in the photo. Um, she could have been. Is that in there? Next question. Mr. Jackson, can I approach you? No. Next question. You just looked at a photograph. I just glanced through them. The objection is sustained. The reality is, Miss Mclofflin, your relationship with Caitlyn Albert is far more than simply somebody that you went to high school with. Isn’t that true? Um, I described what it is. Do you stand by your testimony that Caitlyn Albert is quote, “Somebody I went to high, I’m sorry, I went to high school with somebody by that name.” I said that and I described the relationship numerous times throughout that testimony to clarify it. And you clarified it. You clarified it under questioning by me. Correct. Yes. And well, and Mr. Lai, he asked follow-ups. And in fact, you were shown some of these photographs last year, too. Objection. Sustain. The reason you clarified it is because you were confronted with photos of yourself last year. Correct. Can you can you repeat the question? Sure. The reason you clarified it as you just testified your relationship is because you were confronted with photographs of you and Caitlyn Hour last year. Correct. I just answered the questions that you had. Right. And you were shown photographs last year. I was. Yes. There’s also another member of the Albert family that you’ve spoken to about this case. Isn’t that right? No. January 30th, 2022. You were contacted by a member of the Canton Police Department to set up an interview for weren’t you? No, I was not. You remember be being contacted by anybody to set up an interview with Michael Proctor? The state police called me and I met with two street state troopers. I don’t know which one of the troopers called me to set up the interview. Isn’t it true that it was actually a Canton police officer who coordinated that interview with you? I have no knowledge of that at all. Isn’t it true that the Canton police officer who set up the interview with Massachusetts State Police and coordinated that interview was a detective named Kevin? Do you remember that? I have no knowledge of that. Isn’t it true that Brian Albert has a brother named Kevin Albert on police department. Um, I know that now. Isn’t that who coordinated your interview with Michael? I’ve never spoken to Kevin Albert ever. You can’t remember who it was that set up the meeting. How can you say with such specificity? Because it was a the state police called me. The state police called me. It was a state trooper. Can you wait till I’m finished? Hold on one second. Oh, sorry. If you can’t remember who it was that called you specifically, how can you say with such specificity that you’ve never spoken to? Because I have only ever talked about this case with a state police trooper. So there were two of them there when I went for the interview. I don’t remember which one called me, but I’ve never been contacted by anyone in the can about an interview or about the case. So, I know it’s not. It was I just don’t know which state trooper it was that called me. Did you talk to Mr. Brennan about this issue um when you all met? No, I did not. This this issue never came up. No. About Kevin Albert or the Massachusetts State Police or your first interview? No. You remember testifying about this last year? Uh, I remember you asking me about who coordinated the interview. And now as you sit here, you’re saying it was absolutely 100% Massachusetts State Police that coordinated that interview. It was only ever I only ever spoke to uh the state police about that interview. I was I wasn’t contacted uh by anyone else to go in for that interview. Are you saying that you now have a specific memory of how that interview was set up and that it was Massachusetts police? My only memory is Do you have a memory or do you answer the question, please? I don’t really get the question. Can you answer that question? I don’t I don’t understand the question. Ask it again. Sure. Are you saying as you sit here now that you have a memory of how that interview was set up and it was by a Massachusetts state police officer? I always had a memory that it was a state police officer. Okay. I don’t know which one. That’s why I said I don’t know. Isn’t it true that last year you were asked that very similar question? This is a 10 10-56 lines 10 through 15. question. Do you recall being contacted by a completely different officer to say, “Hey, Trooper Proctor wants to talk to you. Come on to CAPD wants to have an interview.” Answer. I don’t remember exactly how the interview was set up. Remember that, right? So, as you sit here, you now have a specific memory that that interview was set up by Massachusetts officers. That’s the only memory I have of it. And when I said I don’t know, you said somebody other than Proctor and I didn’t know if you were referring to the other state trooper that was there because I didn’t remember specifically who called me to come in for the interview. But I’ve never spoken to anybody uh in the Canton police about that interview or the setup. In fact, Kevin Albert is Brian Albert’s brother. I’m aware of that. Now you’re aware that Kevin Albert is Caitlyn Albert’s uncle? I guess so. How many conversations did you have with anybody before you actually sat down with Michael Proctor? Either anticipation of setting up the interview or otherwise. Um, none. I think once I got the call, I just called my chief that they’re asking me to come in. Um, and that was that. And you got the call from whom? I don’t know which state trooper called me. But as you sit here now, you’re very specific in your memory. It was a state trooper. I only ever met with state troopers. And no one from the camp police ever contacted me about an interview, setting up an interview. During your interview with Michael Proctor, did you disclose to Trooper Proctor that you had a pre-existing relationship with any member of the Albert family? Uh, no. Did Michael Proctor disclose to you during that interview that he had any kind of relationship with the family? Objection. Sustain. I want to talk to you for a second about your role. You did in fact arrive at 34th Fair Laughlin. How long had you been a firefighter paramedic at that time? January 29th of 2022. Probably about five years. You said that you’d responded to hundreds. You believe it’s possibly hundreds of calls. Is that right? Possibly. How many were homicides or potential homicides? Um, none that I know of. So, this would be the first one on January 29th, 2026, right? Um, yes. And obviously you had never responded to a homicide before. You certainly had never responded to a homicide police officer before. Correct. Correct. I think you indicated as much on direct examination that you were not and are not now a trained detective. Is that right? Right. You never cond conducted any sort of a formal investigation for a criminal investigation, had you? No. You hadn’t been trained. You had no advanced training on how to preserve or interpret uh statements or memorialize statements for evidentiary purposes? No. Or for the use in trial, things of that nature? No. In fact, your role that morning was just to provide medical assistance and pretty much nothing else. Is that right? Uh yes. And you’ll agree that it was a somewhat chaotic scene, right? Yes. Lots of uh first responders on scene, right? Yes. Everybody working furiously or at least people working furiously to provide life-saving measures to John. Is that right? Yes. People were talking over each other. There was a cacophony of engine sounds and noises coming from people talking and trying to speak over the wind and the howling the the driving snow and wind that was coming down. Snow that was coming down. Is that right? Yes. You hear people in the background in the foreground people talking over each other. Yes. Emotions. Your emotions. Everybody else’s emotions were on high alert. Is that right? Yes. So you were trying to do your job under pretty intense pressure and in a very limited context. Correct. Yes. You didn’t have a tape recorder with you when you were uh asking my client any questions, did you? No, of course not. No audio recording of that conversation you claim took place between you and Miss Reed. Is that right? Not that I know of. And you’ve already indicated that you didn’t even follow up with a single question uh when she responded in the way that you’ve indicated she responded. Correct. Yes. The words you claimed you heard were, “I hit him.” Is that right? Correct. It’s your experience that people under pressure, people under stress because you go to high stress situations all the time as a firefighter paramedic. Correct. Correct. People in those kind of situations speak in broken sentences or rhetorical questions. Correct. Not uncommon. Um people react differently at Yeah. different scenes. But you certainly wouldn’t say that that’s uncommon. Oh my god, what happened? What happened? Things of that nature. No. Did you hear my client ask the question of confusion or series of questions of confusion? Could I have hit him? Did I hit him? I did not hear that. You never heard her say anything close to did I hit him or could I have hit him? I did not. Miss Mclofflin, where are your notes regarding this statement? Um, I don’t have any. Where’d they go? I It’s not my in the role that I was in. I would I’m not in a a position to write a report on this type of call. It would be the lead paramedic uh or the officer on scene. So, you didn’t write anything down? You didn’t have any opportunity to write down? Uh I didn’t. We’re just going by your memory. Um yes, to play exhibit 4 starting at runtime 850. Okay. Also, just to orient us, can you tell me where you are in that video? Um, I might be in the middle there, although I didn’t get a good look. The yellow and the red. Yes. Okay. Uh, I’d like you to pay special attention, Mr. to your right and your left hands as this video plays. Can we go ahead and play it? Pause it. What are you looking down at? Oh, I I see what you’re saying. Um, yeah, I would write like stuff on my glove. That’s something I’ll do as I’m getting the information. Was that your question about notes? So, you were taking notes. That’s just me jotting down the the demographics. Let’s keep playing. Pause. Is this still the the part of the the interaction where my client is overly frantic and almost hysterical? That’s the point where the your client started to make the statements. Was she overly frantic and almost hysterical? She was distraught. Okay. Overly frantic and almost hysterical. We’re using different words. I’m asking you about your words. Does this describe her as overly? I think the overly frantic and hysterical. I was describing this the entire scene. So, you’ll agree that she doesn’t look overly frantic or hysterical. Again, hard to say from a video, but and according to you, well, actually, Miss Mclofflin, it’s easiest to say from a from a video, isn’t it? It’s a video. Yeah. I mean, she’s kind of I’m she’s not totally in view. And I mean, she wasn’t standing there calmly, I guess. She looks hysterical, too. She was upset. She was very upset. Hysterical. I might say hysterical. She was ext She was extremely upset. Okay. And this is the point which Miss Made is saying, “Calm down. You’re being hysterical.” Yeah. Okay, let’s go ahead and play it. Pause it. So, you indicated that this is the point at which and we can leave the lights down for a second and we’ll play it again. This is the point at which uh you said my client had just said, “I hit him. I hit him.” basically confessing having hit John O’Ne. Correct. Those are the statements she’d made. And officer Sarif is standing right there. Right. Yes. You see any reaction from him right there? Um I know he turned and told somebody to get to go get the sergeant. I don’t know if that already played. I’m sorry. Did you see any reaction from him? Uh he he responded, “You what?” and she repeated it again and then he told someone to get the sergeant. I know what that’s what your statement is. I know that’s your testimony. I’m asking about the video. Do you see him reacting right here? I I you’d have to play it again. I wasn’t looking at that part. Do you see him handcuff my client? Oh, no. You see him call anybody over to handcuff my client? He turned to signal to get Goody down here is what? So, they handcuffed her? No. No. No. They didn’t handcuff her? No. Even though she just confessed in front of a police officer, according to you. That’s what she said. I hit him. I hit him. It’s my fault. I did it. It’s my That’s a confession, correct? She said, “I hit him. I hit him. I hit him. I hit him.” And officer Serif just stands there and my client walks away. Correct. You’d have to talk to officer Sarif about that. Oh, we have. You should, Mr. Objection. So, let’s move on. Mr. Jackson, I’m not rushing you, but how much longer do you think you’ll be? Not long. Okay. So, I can wrap it in a couple minutes. Okay. Uh toward the end of this video. Are you playing it again or should we put the lights on? Uh if we can play it again. Okay. Continue. Pause it. You appear to be writing something down. Um I Yeah, I could be. And according to you, you’re writing on your glove. Yes. What What kind of glove? Um just a regular latex glove that we use on the ambulance. You didn’t have a notepad? Um I probably did. Sometimes it’s easier to just write it down on your glove. Did you write I hit him on your No, I did not. Still appear to be writing something down. Looking down at your glove. I may be looking at it. Pause it. Is this also an example of my client being overly hysterical and frantic? Oh, I I wasn’t paying attention to her. Um, you can have a lights up. Whatever it was that you were talking to Miss Reed about, it was important enough that you had a pen out. You were writing things down. Correct. Well, I was still finishing writing down some of the other stuff. It was important enough. Yeah. Write things down yesterday. Yes. I wrote down things that were some of the things that were said. Some of the things that were important. Correct. Um Yes. For instance, you’d write down John O’Keefe. That’s his name, right? Right. You might write down a circle with a slash through it. Allergies. No allergies. Right. Right. You might write down 46 for his age. Right. You might write down how he was injured, hit by a car. Correct. I did not know that that was what I didn’t know what those statements meant. You might write down three little syllables that was just told to you. I hit it. Especially if it had been repeated four times as you correct. Yeah. I I had that in my head and I was going to go tell them that. And you had a pen right in your right hand. Correct. Yeah. I wasn’t going to write that statement down on the glove. remembered that and I went back to the ambulance and told them. You didn’t memorialize that statement on any note that we have. Correct. Uh, no. You didn’t memorialize that statement on any glove that you were wearing. Correct? No. Whatever you wrote down on that glove, where is that now? Yeah. I I don’t have it obviously. I don’t know how obvious it is. What do you do with it? Um, you just scratch everything out and you throw out the glove. Threw it away. Mhm. Is that right? Mhm. Yes. Is that Yes. Yes. So, we don’t know what was actually on or not on that glove, do we? I wasn’t going to I didn’t write those words down on that glove. As we stand here, we don’t know what was or wasn’t on that. Name, date of birth, no meds, no history, no allergies. And then I wasn’t writing that statement down on the glove. I went back to the ambulance and just reported it. And and importantly, it was important enough, as you say, to go back and report the statement, but not important enough to write it down with that pen very conveniently in your right hand. Correct. It’s not about importance. It was I was I was relaying that information to the ambulance uh verbally. I didn’t need to write it down. And you in fact didn’t write it down, did you? No, I didn’t make a report about it. And you’re also aware that not a single police officer out of the scene wrote that down either. Objection. That’s all I have. Mr. Brennan, can you do a redirect in 5 minutes? I can. Okay. Ma’am, when Mr. Jackson would show you part of your testimony from a prior proceeding, was he leaving something out when he was showing you that asking you questions? Sustained. When he asked you about whether you knew Kaitlin Albert Albert and you said you went to high school with her, did you immediately then answer questions describing that relationship? Correct. Watch the will you ask immediately other questions about the relationship? I explained the relationship over and over again throughout the testimony. In fact, you described the relationship over 20 times, didn’t you? I’m sure it was that many. You didn’t simply just say somebody named Kate. I went to high school with somebody named Caitlyn Albert. You didn’t leave it at that, did you? No, I didn’t. Do you remember saying I would say more acquaintances, not close friends? Right. You remember immediately saying after that I would say we had mutual friends. We might see other each other occasionally because of mutual friends, but we don’t have a one-on-one friendship or hang out regularly. Right. I’m going to move on. You remember many more statements after that initial answer where you describe the relationship. Yes. Similarly, you were asked about a meeting with the state troopers. Yes. And the attorney asked you a question about your memory or suggesting that Mr. Albert set up the meeting. You remember those questions? Yes. You were asked questions just like that before at the last hearing, weren’t you? Yes. Remember being asked about who set up the meeting and you saying that you didn’t recall? Yes. And then you remember being asked about whether a completely different officer set up the meeting and you said I don’t remember exactly how it was set up. Yes. Followed by So that was my next question. You may have told me this. Do you have any recollection who set that interview up? And you said you didn’t. Right. And you were specifically asked, “Does the name Kevin Albert sound familiar?” Objection. Do you remember saying no? The objection sustained. Do you remember when you were asked at the last hearing, “Do you does the name Kevin Albert sound familiar?” Do you remember what you told attorney Jackson? I told him no. And then you were then asked, “Do you know Kevin Albert?” Do you remember your response? I said no. When you were there trying to help the gentleman that was on the ground, did you know this would become a homicide investigation? No. Did anybody tell you this was a homicide? No. In fact, when you spoke or the defendant spoke to you and you were simply trying to get background information to help Mr. OP when she told you I hit him, I hit him. Did she say that she hit him with something? No. Did you know whether it was with a fist or a foot? No. or Alexis. No. You mentioned this was not part of your role to investigate. Why didn’t you persist? Why didn’t you follow up and ask more questions about that statement? What about the situation and the dynamics caused you not to ask questions? Why didn’t you persist in getting more information from the defendant when she said, “I hit him. I hit him.” I just I felt bad for her at the time. It was a very disturbing scene and I did not want to push further down that road. It’s not my job and I didn’t feel comfortable doing it. No. But how do you remember she made those statements? I won’t ever forget those statements. I have no further questions. Anything, Mr. Jackson? Very briefly, that was a urbing scenes, right? Yes. An emotional scene. Yes. Yes. A lot of people for a lot of reasons, right? Yes. And that’s when things start getting missed. When emotion starts playing a role, correct? I that’s when details start getting missed. I guess it depends on the situation, right? But this was a disturbing, emotional, upsetting scene even for you. Correct. I felt that for a civilian to see it, it was very disturbing for them. Probably wasn’t great for you either, was it? It’s not. Yeah. And your testimony is you never heard my client say, “Could I hit him? Did I hit him?” Correct. You never heard that. I didn’t hear those questions. No. What you heard was I hit him. Is that right? I heard him. I hit him repeatedly. And changing gears for a quick second. I’m almost finished. Um, you did ultimately start talking about your relationship in more detail with Caitlyn under my questioning, didn’t you? After that first date, is that right? Yes. That’s when I started showing you photographs. Correct. Was that was that when you were seen show photographs? I don’t know. I described it so many times I I don’t remember. But you you knew I had that I was going to ask you about. Objection. No objection. Finally, with regard to Kevin Albert, did Trooper Proctor tell you during that interview that he had texted with trooper, I’m sorry, with officer Kevin Albert about setting up your interview? Tell you that? I have no knowledge of that. Did tell you that the reason we’re here, the reason we set this is because Kevin Albert texted me that he had already coordinated with you. Never. No. Thank you. It’s all right. All right, Miss McGloin, you are all set. Joe, I appreciate you um going a little later until lunch witness. So, why don’t we do that? I’ll give you 45 minutes. All rise for the court, please. Follow me. Hey there, Karen Reed, trial watchers. You know what? A lot of the trials we cover remind me of that the world is unfortunately very unpredictable. And I’ll tell you what, having a great lawyer matters so much. That is where a great partner and sponsor Morgan and Morgan comes in. This is a firm with over a thousand attorneys. You know why? Because they win a lot. In the past few months, Morgan and Morgan secured a $9.3 million verdict for a car crash victim in Florida, a $5.6 million verdict for another car accident victim in Atlanta, and not to mention $1.8 million in Kentucky after insurance offered them a mere $5,000 in that case. And even if you think your case, you know, isn’t worth millions of dollars, why not start a claim and fight for what you deserve? Morgan and Morgan makes it so simple. And you can start a claim from your phone in just eight clicks. That’s it. It can all be done on your phone. So, if you’re injured, you can easily start a claim at forthepeople.com/lcive by clicking the link below or scanning the QR code on screen. Go to back of session. You may be seated. send you back to the jury room. We’ll see you in 10 minutes. All rise, please. Close your notebooks. Follow me. All right. So, we’re bringing the jurors over. I’ll see counsel God damn it. Court is back in session. You may be seated. I apologize for that, folks. Nobody likes wasting your time. Witness Mr. Thank you, your honor. Call Paul Gallagher. Thank you. Follow me, please. Face the right hand, please. The whole truth and nothing about the truth. So help you. I do. Thank you. Your honor. All right, Mr. Brennan, whenever you Thank you, sir. Could you please introduce yourself to the jury? Yes. My name is Paul Gallagher. For the core reporter, would you mind spelling your last name? G A L L A G H E R. Mr. Gallagher, do you presently work? Um, as a police officer, I’m retired. When did you retire? Uh, August 31st, 2024. When you retired, what department were you working for? Canton Police Department. How many years had you worked for the Canton Police Department upon your retirement? I was credited with 32 years, eight months of service. Did you have a particular rank when you retired? Yes, I was a lieutenant. I want to go back to the beginning of your law enforcement career and share your background uh with the jury. When did you begin your career in law enforcement? I became a permanent intermittent police officer in Canton in 1992. What a permanent intimate police officer is, it’s basically a part-time police officer. Are you required to attend a 16-week part-time academy? Are your duties include regular patrol duties that a regular police officer would do, but you’re only utilized during special events, um short staffing, and you’re allowed to work paid traffic details. Did that status change at some point? It did in 1994. 1994, were you a patrolman? Yes, I required me to attend a full-time 18week police academy. In addition to the police academy, did you continue your training over the years? Yes, I did. Can you share with the jury some of the training that you would attend over the years? Oh, sure. So, I did uh constitutional law. I did uh interview and interrogation uh in terrorism, international terrorism, domestic terrorism, uh domestic violence, uh nucle swabbing, um and uh uh DEA uh basic narcotics course and uh last duties were I uh did background check. So I attended background training and I did internal affairs. Before I talk a little bit more about your experience over the years and your progress through the Canton Police Department, I’d like you to share with us generally and briefly the structure of the Canton Police Department. The Canton Police Department um how big is it? How how many officers are typically employed by Canton at the same time? We would like to have 45, but unfortunately u we’re short staffed at this time. At the Canton Police Department, is there different ranks? There is. And what are they? Uh they are patrol sergeant, detective sergeant, lieutenant, deputy chief and chief. Given the size of Canton, uh is it a small department or a typically large department for that size? I would say it’s a mediumsized department. Is Canton uh do you receive traffic from other areas and nearby? We do. Is Boston part of the crossroad through Canton? At times it is. Route 138 runs from Boston and it goes all the way down to the Southshore through Brockton, Taton, etc. Other cities or towns nearby that bring traffic through Canton as far as law enforcement’s concerned? Um, they do and other states uh 95 runs through Canton as well and brings up uh traffic from Rhode Island. For a relatively small town, is Canton a um busy police department given all the crossroads and intersections? It can be very busy at times. You mentioned in Canton that there are different uh ranks. You started as a patrol officer. Yes. Did that change at some point? It did. When? Uh July of 2001, I became a detective. Did you have any particular or special training to become a detective? I uh started attending uh how to dust for fingerprints. Uh my focus my focus was narcotics. I had uh several narcotics classes. Did you engage in those type of investigations on behalf of Canton? I did. Did you work with other agencies? I did in 2005. I started working with the Drug Enforcement Administration in 2006. I was assigned as a task force officer uh for the DEA uh initially uh out of Wester Tactical Diversion Squad uh which their goal mission goal was to eradicate uh oxycontton and oxycodone um distribution at that time. It was during our oxycodone phase. Uh in 2008 I uh was moved to Boston division and uh there we focused on all narcotics not just oxycodone, heroin, uh cocaine, etc. How many years did you spend as a detective before you received your next promotion? Approximately uh 15 years. What happened next in your career as far as progress? Uh, I became uh took the sergeants exam and I became a sergeant. In order to become a sergeant, do you have to pass an exam? An exam and an assessment? Yes. Is that enough to become a sergeant or is there another process you have to go through? That’s that’s where they uh that’s where they rank you after the uh exam and the assessment. What year did you say you became a sergeant? I became a sergeant in 2017. Was that your first supervisory position? Not actually. I also worked as an officer in charge, which you’re not tact tech technically a sergeant, but when there’s no sergeant to fill the shift, they’ll use experienced officers uh to work as a sergeant, and you receive sergeants pay. How long did you work as a sergeant for at the Canton Police Department? I worked from as a sergeant for one year till 2018 and I was promoted to detective sergeant. As a sergeant, did your duties change or expand from that of detective? I was still assigned to the Drug Enforcement Administration at that time. And you just shared a year later you were promoted to lieutenant. Did you have to take and pass an exam for that? Uh, that was detective sergeant. Uh, and I did not have to pass a test for that. Did your duties and responsibilities expand when you became lieutenant? Yes, I was uh brought out of the DEA to work and in Canton specifically. Were there other lieutenants on the Canton Police Department when you worked as a lieutenant? Uh I I became a lieutenant in 2021. At the time there was uh three other lieutenants. Were there any other officers above lieutenant at that point? There was a deputy chief and a chief in 2022 January. Were you a lieutenant? I was. Your duties and responsibilities, do they include actually going to scenes or was it purely supervisory? It was supervisory, but we were expected to respond to scenes. What do you mean by that? Our chief expected a supervisor on scene at all times. At all scenes. Even if there was a ranking supervisor like a sergeant, were you still as a lieutenant expected to go to scenes? Oh, yes. Did you do that often? Yes. I want you to take us to January 29th, 2022. Were you working the overnight shift from January 28th, 2022 into January 29, 2022? I was the outgoing lieutenant. I did not work into the 29th. I was the last lieutenant to work on the 28th in the early morning hours around 6:00 a.m. Were you on shift or off shift? I was off shift. Were you planning on working that morning? I was planning on working later that day. Yes. Do you remember what the weather was like that early morning? Yes. There was uh there was a noraster uh which was snow, wind. Did anything interrupt your plan of working later that day? Yes. Tell us what happened. Uh shortly after 6:00 a.m. I received a call from Sergeant Sha Good of the Canton Police Department. After you received a call from Sergeant Sha Good, uh were you informed about a situation? I was. Were you told any basic details of where and what? Yes. Without sharing the actual conversation, where was this uh situation taking place? I misunderstood the situation. I thought it was on Meadows A in Canton. I later uh found out through dispatch that it was actually Fair View Road. When you heard that there was a situation um in Canton, did you decide to change your plans about when you would come in? Yes, I responded. Why did you respond? That’s the expectation our chief had for us. When you go into work, do you use a police cruiser or do you use a personal vehicle? Um, on this particular day, I used a personal vehicle because of the weather. Was that different than typical? Yes. And why would you use a personal vehicle instead of a police cruiser? Um, it was larger. It was four-wheel drive. It was uh the only way I probably would have got there to the scene. After you received the call about a situation, tell us what you did. Um, I u loaded up the car uh with a tent and I drove to the Canton Police Department and I got some winter gear um from the office and I uh told on the radio got on the radio and advised uh Sergeant Sean Good who was at the scene on Fair View that all officers were held to further notice. What does that mean? they weren’t going to be going home at their end of the shift until they were relieved by another supervisor. Why did you take a tent with you? Uh because of the snow. Um the the way the call was described as me to me was a person uh possibly not breathing. And if it was an unattended death, I wanted to be able to cover the person. Why? Respect. That tent was a tent from your home. A personal tent. It was. It was a an 8×8 pop-up tent. You went to the Canton Police Department first before you went to the scene? I did. Why did you go to the Canton Police Department first? I had some winter gear there, including a reflective jacket that I thought would be helpful given it was dark out. Uh visibility was very bad. When you got to the Canton Police Department, did you learn anything from any of your colleagues while at the police department? Um the only one colleague at the police department at that time was Officer Kelly De. Okay. After you got the gear, your gear at the Canton Police Department, did you head towards Fair View? I did. Other than the general description that you had heard, did you know anything about what was going on there? Uh, just that that a gentleman was found unconscious in the snow, possibly not breathing. You mentioned the term death. What does that mean? Uh, an unintended death is a death where someone dies alone. Um, and you don’t know the reason. It’s it doesn’t mean there’s there’s foul play. In fact, 99% of the time it’s it’s natural causes. Is there a process for the Canton Police Department when they learn of any death, or not, is there a process you need to follow? Yes, there is. And what is that process? That’s to call the Norolk County DA’s office, their CPAC unit, crime prevention in control. Um, they have jurisdictions over uh deaths and unattended deaths. You mentioned a CPAC unit. What type of officers or law enforcement is the CPAC unit? Uh, it’s manned by the Massachusetts State Police. Are you required by statute to contact CPAC or the Massachusetts State Police even if it’s an unintended death? Yes. Did you follow that process? Um, is Sergeant Lank uh followed that process? Is that one of the officers who worked under you? Yes, that is correct. Did you know if Sergeant Lank was at the scene when you were leaving Kangun or did you learn at some point when you got there whether Sergeant Lank was at Fair View? When I got there, I saw the uh black Toyota Tundra, which is occupied by operated by our detectives there. And then I saw him. When Canton Police Department first contacted the Massachusetts State Police or the CPAC unit about um the information was do you have an understanding whether or not the Massachusetts State Police were going to respond or not? Uh they were not responding. So, when you got to Fair View Road, um, were there any other law enforcement officers other than Canton police officers? No, there was not. When you appeared at Fair View Road or arrived, were you the superior office off officer on the scene? I was. I was the highest ranking officer. As you’re pulling up to Fair View that morning, what’s the first thing you see when you get there? Uh, as I pull up, I see the last of the fireey apparatus pulling away. Um, I got out of the vehicle. The first one I encountered was Sergeant Sean Good, who was the shift supervisor. Did you see any other of your officers there? I did. I saw Lieutenant Lank further down. And further down, I saw two other cruisers, which ended up being Officer Melany and Officer Sarif. Did any of the cruisers or vehicles have lights on? They did. Did you hear any sirens? No, there wouldn’t be any sirens. Why wouldn’t there be? Uh, sirens are used to move traffic. Um there’s there was no traffic. It was a blizzard. There were no cars on the road. You might see an occasional plow. Did you ever learn the general area where the person was found? Yes. Did at that time, did you know who the person was? I did. I knew him by name. Yes. Did someone inform you of who the person was? Sergeant Sean Good did. Yes. Okay. And And who was the person that you learned was on the ground? John O’Keefe. Had you known John O’Keefe? I knew of John O’Keefe. If I had never met John O’Keefe, when you first arrived at Fair View, was Mr. O’Keefe still on the ground? He was not. Was he at the scene? He was not. So, when you got to the scene at Fair View, Mr. O’Keefe was already gone? Yes, he had been transported to the hospital. Um, so did you ever firsthand see exactly where Mr. O’Keefe was lying when he was found? I did not. Did anybody point out to you the general area? Yes. Did you have a chance at that point to Well, obviously you didn’t have a chance to examine or look at Mr. O’Keefe. Um, did you have a chance to look in the general area where you were told he was found? I did. Tell us a little bit more about the weather now that you’re standing outside Fair View Road. What’s the visibility like? What’s the temperature like? What are the conditions like? Um, so it was it was terrible. It was uh blizzard-like. Uh, the wind would blow in your face. it would change directions. Uh the snow was an icy snow. Um you in the wind you had to actually talk loud uh to be heard somebody right next to you and um it it was your typical New England blizzard basically. At this point, did you have any position as you assessed the area whether this was a criminal investigation? Uh well, we had no crime at that time. When you were there, were you looking for anything? Yes, I was examining the scene. Okay. Um, at that point, did you have any um reason to start a criminal investigation? Uh, not at that time. No. When you learned that Mr. O’Keefe was found outside, did you go look at the particular area? Yes. Can you describe the area that was shown to you where Mr. O’Keefe was found? Sure. It was um on the left side of the property of 34 Fair View. Um you could see where uh first responders uh and witnesses and police officers had uh walked up to the area. Um it was uh by a flag pole um on the property line of number 32 Fair View. What was the lighting condition at that point in that area? Uh it was dark. It was uh it was sun was coming up but due to the weather and the cloud cover and the snow it was it visibility still was not great. Were the um law enforcement vehicles providing any light for the area? No. How about the house? Was there any bright lights coming out of the house illuminating that area? I I I didn’t see any lights, window lights on. There may have been an exterior um you know the door uh light at one or two houses. In addition to the law enforcement officers that were there, did you see any civilians when you got there? No, there were no civilians there. While you were outside looking at the area, did any civilians ever come out? No, not at all. Any civilians ever come out of 34 Fair View? No. How about next door, 32 Fair View? Did you ever see any civilians come out of that address? Nobody ever came out of the house. Across the street, is there homes across the street from 34 Fair View? There is. Did you see anybody come out of either one of those houses? Did not see anybody come out of those houses. When you were outside and you were shown the area where you were told Mr. O’Keefe was found, did you try to do anything regarding that area to identify the area itself? I’m sorry. Can you ask that again? Yes. The area where you were told Mr. O’Keefe was found. Did you try to do anything around that area to identify the area? Um, well, it was marked out with crime scene tape at that time and um what I saw was pink blood and it was in a circular patent. Was the crime scene tape holding up at all? No, it was not. It was uh blowing wildly in the wind and at one point uh it was actually blowing in. It was triangular and it was actually blowing into the crime scene. Was the tape helping at all? No, it was not. Was there any use for putting a tent up at that point? No, there wasn’t. Not due to the the high winds. Did you learn whether any of the officers had at any point before you got there gone into Fairview Road? Yes. Who did you learn went into Fairview Road? Uh, both Sergeant Good and Detective Sergeant Lake went into Fairview Road. Did you know how long they were inside for? Oh, did you know that? I did not. At that point, did you go and speak to anybody in any of the nearby homes? I did not. When you were at this scene and you saw what was happening in the weather, did you make a decision to do anything? Yes. What did you decide you were going to do? Uh, since the state police were not responding, uh, I decided to process where Mr. the area where Mr. O’Keefe was found and try to find out why he had the medical episode he was having. Um, if you understood this to be a medical episode and at that point you didn’t have any information it was a crime scene, why were you taking the time and effort to process the scene under these conditions? Um, because that that’s what we do. Even the hospital, there could be a reason that um he there’s obviously a reason he’s there. Um, I think we had a duty and obligation to check around his where he was found and see if there was any explanation to what caused his medical condition. Did you uh focus on a particular area when you decided to look around? I did. What area were you going to look at? Uh, where he was where where it was pointed out he was found and where the the blood patent was. Were you thinking about looking in any other areas around that? Uh, not at that time. Why not? We didn’t have any reason to. We only had the area where he was found. And at that point, did you have any idea what caused his injuries? Uh, we had none. At this point, when you were pointed, are you looking at the area where Mr. O’Keefe was found? Was the area getting covered up at all? Yes, it was. With what? Snow. How quickly? Uh, very quickly. I believed uh I believe it was forecasted it come down to 1 to 2 in an hour, if I recall. Did you have any idea how hard the ground was at that point? Uh, it was frozen. Objection. Did you have any idea? It was frozen. Objection. I’ll allow it. How deep was the snow covering that frozen ground? Approximately 4 in at that time. When you want to look around the area, did you consider using a rake or a shovel? Um, I did. And And did you? I did not. Why didn’t you use a shovel at that point? I was afraid I would miss something or possibly break something. What What could you break with a shovel? Anything. Uh glass or anything of that nature. Um what was your um what was your decision about how you would search that area? What did what did you want to see? I wanted to see anything that was possible, whether it was uh any type of weapon or um any type of med medical bottle or any any reason that he could have uh come to where he was. Did you think of a way that you could look below the top of the snow without unresting the scene? Yes, I did. And what did you conclude? Um because of the blood, the pink spots we thought I thought might be blood, I thought a leaf blower would be the best method because I have seen it used and to remove light layers of snow and it can be controlled. And after having seen that before and making that decision, what was the benefit of a leaf blower over a shovel? I wasn’t going to miss anything with a leaf blower. Much better control and control. Tell us what your intention. What was your your hope with the leaf blower? Um to clear the area controlled slowly so any potential uh evidence of uh what happened to Mr. O’Keefe wouldn’t be lost. Did you have a leaf blower with you? Did not. So what did you do? Uh Sergeant Good volunteered to go get the leaf blower. Get a leaf blower. Did you remain at the scene? I did. And during this time are you still have no information that it’s a crime scene? We had no information on a crime at that time. Did Sergeant Good come back with the leaf blower? He did. Did you try to get any other items to help you? Uh, not that I recall. Okay. When Sergeant Good came back with the leaf blower, did you use it? I did. Was it successful? Very. Tell us what you did. I uh started with uh low speed and uh began whisking away the snow and then I saw how it was uncovering those pink spots were come becoming brighter red. Um so I verified it was frozen or coagulated blood at that time. Um and so out of the abundance of caution I decided that u that was something we may want to collect. Why did you want to collect that? Um, just out of abundance of caution, DNA. It’s uh I expected it to be John’s DNA and and I I wasn’t going to get a second chance at it. It was either collected or never have it. Were you making quick decisions under these circumstances? Yes. Did you ask somebody to get a container to put the coagulated blood in? I I ended up uh getting the containers. Where did you get them from? I got them from Lieutenant Keller who uh lived in the neighborhood. Did Lieutenant Callahare ever come over to the scene? He did not. Uh, did he work for the Canton Police Department? He did. Why didn’t he come over to the scene with you? Uh, because he originally thought the scene was at 32. Did you ask him to come over to the scene to help you? Uh, no. Did you expect him to come over to help you? No. Did you prefer he not? Correct. So, when you get the containers, were they plastic cups? Yes, they were uh red solo cups. And what was the purpose of using the red solo cups? Uh they were plastic. Uh they weren’t going to leak. Um they weren’t going to get soggy. Uh they were they were large. I needed a small sample. Um my thought was uh because this it was frozen or coagulated that we could collect it, transport it, and transfer it to the crime lab who could extract the DNA however they saw best fit. Do sometimes the crab crime lab test evidence and sometimes not? Of course. Yes. Is that your decision? No. You were telling us about the leaf blower. Um, did it serve to excavate the area? It did. Did you begin that process? I did. And when you did that, did you try to memorialize it? Yes, I did. How did you do that? I had uh Sergeant Good uh videotape it. Why did you have Sergeant Good memorialize your efforts to excavate the area? I thought someone may wonder why I decided to use a leaf blower. So, I wanted to uh demonstrate its effectiveness. I’m going to move to introduce two videos that uh council has. So, there’s no objection to these videos, right? No objection. 51. Thank you. With the court’s permission, can I show the jury the videos? Yes. Miss Gilman, can we show number one, please? Heat. Heat. Is that is that last Stop and do video. Could you, Miss Gilman, stop at the end of the video so it’s a still frame? That’s good right there. Sir, who’s the person holding the leaf blower? That is me. Did the leaf blower work as you had hoped? It was great. You see other footprints around that area, correct? Do you know how those footprints got there? Uh, some of them were from first responders, some of them were for witnesses. Uh, the ones up top by the flag pole were for when the officers put out the crime scene tape. Did officers try to wrap the crime scene tape around the flag pole? They did wrap it around the flag pole. Yes. I see. And from that vantage point, could you see the side and front yard? Yes. Did the sideyard have any footprints or evidence that anything was dragged through the sideyard? No, not at all. How about the front yard? Did the front yard have any evidence that anybody had walked across it or dragged anything across it? I mean, had one set of prints from um Sergeant Lang. Other than Sergeant Lang’s footprints across the front yard, was there any other impediment? No, not that I saw. I’m going to ask if we could see the second video, please. Miss Gilman, could you stop there, please? You see the end of the leaf blower? I do. There’s an object just below it at like 7:00. Do you see that? I do. Did you discover something in that area? We did. What did you discover? It’s a uh cocktail glass. Was it um did it have any damage to it? It did. Describe that for us. Um it was broken on the top. Could you continue the video, please, Miss Gilman? Stop, please. There’s some red spots. Is that what you identified as coagulated blood? That is Below some of those spots and to the left, there’s an area that’s not white. It’s brownish. Do you know what that is? Uh, that’s I believe just bare ground. Okay. If we could finish the video, please. Okay. Thank you. Could have the lights on, please. Did you or any officer at your direction um obtain and preserve that broken cocktail glass. Yes. May I approach, your honor? Yes. So, I’m showing you two photographs. The first photograph, do you recognize what’s in that photograph? I do. What is it? It’s a u ex when we after we exposed the broken I exposed the broken glass. Is the broken glass uh depicted in that photograph? Yeah, it is. Is that similar or substantially the same way it appeared to you that morning? That’s exactly how it appeared. Yes. Do you know if that photograph was taken as a still image of the video or not? Um I do not. Okay. Second photograph. Can you take a look at that? That’s a closeup of the uh cocktail glass of the same photo. It is. Yes. I’ve moved these two photographs into evidence. Okay. Do you want it to be 52 and 52A? Please, your honor. It was 52 52A. Lieutenant, what was done with that cocktail glass? It was bagged and u seized as evidence. Was it brought anywhere that morning? It was brought back to Camp Police Headquarters. What happens when it gets back to Canton Police Headquarters? It gets uh logged into evidence and it’s assigned an evidence stumba. Um the officer uh types in a description of the item. This in this case it was a uh broken cocktail glass or broken glass and once he hits the space bar, it automatically generates a property number for it. And I believe in this case it was 22-18-PR which means 22 is the year 2022. 18 is how many uh pieces of evidence the department as a whole had collected that year so far and PR I believe means property room. Why is it assigned a particular number? Uh everything is assigned a number um by the computer. You said it’s brought to the evidence room. Is that a separate or special place? So, we have um two rooms. We have a temporary evidence room and then there’s a permanent evidence room. Um only two people have access to the permanent evidence room. Is there a reason why access to the evidence room is limited? Uh it there is why? Uh for security. Even in a police department, the evidence room is limited as part of people who have access. That is correct. In the uh evidence room, is there an officer assigned as an evidence officer? Uh not full-time. There is an assigned admin sergeant who is assigned as the evidence officer. Is anything happen specifically with the evidence? Is it packaged or stored in any particular way? Um the glass uh was put into a lock put into a locker I believe. um and temporary evidence and then it’s the uh uh evidence sergeant’s job to retrieve it. But in this case, we were going to transfer it to the state police. Was it transferred to the state police at some point? It was. Were you part of the transition of that item to the state police? I was. And when was it transitioned into who? It was on February 1st, 2022, and it was to a criminalist from the Massachusetts State Crime Lab. Do you know who the criminalist was? I don’t know the name. No. Did the criminalist come to your department, or did you bring the item to them? Uh, they came to our department. In addition to the glass, there was plastic cups with coagulated blood. That’s correct. What did you do with those cups? Uh, those were placed in temporary evidence and placed in a refrigerated unit to carry them from Fair View to the police department. Did you hold the actual cups or did you put them in something? Nope, they were they were stacked in a bag. What type of bag? Uh, it was a uh craft paper bag. Uh, in this particular case, we utilize the stop and shop bag. Is that any different than a bag from the police department? Uh they’re made of the same paper, craft paper, the same size and dimension. Um other than stop and shop and evidence and probably price, uh they’re basically the same bag. Why did you use one of those rather than a bag that said evidence on it? I don’t know where that that bag came from. Um I was in a personal car. Uh Sergeant Lank was in a Tundra. If if that bag is upside down, you wouldn’t know. It didn’t say evidence on it. I’m not sure where that bag came from. In the plastic cups, do you know what happened to those? Yes, they were turned over to the criminalist as well. Where did you store them before they were turned over to the criminalist? Uh, temporary evidence in a refrigerator. I’m going temporary evidence in a refrigerator. Is the refrigerator part of the temporary evidence area? It is. Yes. Did you bring that piece of evidence, the broken glass, with you today? Yes. With the court’s permission, I’d like to approach the witness. Okay. Okay. Handing you a box, gloves, and some scissors. Let me ask you about that box. It has red tape on it. Why? Uh it’s a secure for and transfer of custody. Lieutenant, before you open the box, um, were you one of the officers that discovered that broken glass? Yes. Did you personally bring the glass from Fair View to Canton? No. Do you know who did? Yes. Who? Detective Sergeant Lang. Sergeant Lang? Yes. When you went back to the station, you said that the evidence was then put into an evidence locker. Did you place it in the evidence locker? I don’t recall. Um, and then inevitably it was transitioned to somebody from the forensic unit. That’s correct. Were you personally there when it was taken from the evidence locker and given to the person from the forensic unit? Yes, that was me. Did you have a responsibility and role in that process or were you a passive observer? I I’m had a active role when I was the chain of custody. I was turning it over to the criminalist to the state police lab. After that glass was given to the criminalist. Did you have ever have possession of it again? Never. Did you ever package it or touch it again in any way? No. Never. Did you ever process it in any way? No. Did you put it in that box and tape it up yourself? No. Okay. I’m going to now ask you to open the box, please. Is there an item in that bag? There is. Would you please open the bag and show us what’s in that bag? Thank you. If you could put it back in the bag and the back bag back in the box, please. Lieutenant Gallagher, does that appear to be the same item that you found in the area where John O’Keeffe was at Fair View that morning? Yes, it does. I’d like to have the box and the item marked for identification, please. Okay. The queue right When you were looking around the area that was pointed out to you is where John O’Keefe was found, um did you expand across the front lawn to the street during your search? Uh no, we didn’t with the exception of uncovering um the 6oot asphalt burm. Did you say six foot or is it excuse me 6 in? What’s a burm? It’s a uh it’s basically a cur curbing, but it’s made of asphalt. It’s curved. You probably have seen it. It’s uh it’s asphalt. It’s curved. It separates the street from um property line. Why did you clear that piece? Wanted to see. We’re trying to find out why John was having a medical uh issue and uh we didn’t know if he could have um tripped over a curbing or what turned out to be an asphalt burm and and possibly hit his head. After you made efforts to look in that area, did you return to the Canton Police Department? I did. About what time? It was uh shortly after 8:00 a.m. After you returned to the Canton Police Department, did you receive any information or have a reason to return back to Fairview? Yes. About what time? Uh a little after 9:00. Why did you go back to Fair View after 9:00? Sergeant Lank got a phone call uh that uh Jen McCabe had more information. And where did you understand uh Mrs. McCabe was? At 34 Fair View. Did you go back to 34 Fair View? I did. Did you go with anybody? I went with Sergeant Lank. Did you travel together or separate? Together. When you got back to 34th Fair View outside, what did you do? Uh we parked in the driveway. We walked up and next to the garage there’s a side door. Uh I don’t know if we rang the bell or not, but uh Brian Albbert, the homeowner, answered the door. As you walked up to the door, did you have a chance to look around at the doors in the area in front of that side door? Yes. Did you see anything out of place? No. You’ve been uh a police officer at that point for a long time? Yes. Are you do you receive any training in observing areas or people? always. What type of training? What are you told to look for when you’re speaking to people? Uh I’ve been u I’ve been Bosar trained, which is behavioral observation, suspicious activity training. Um and uh you look for clues uh when when you’re speaking to people. Um you know, whether they cross their legs, cross their arms, certain certain behavioral characteristics. At this point, did you have any understanding that this would later be a crime scene? I did. Yes. What happened? Oh, how did you come to that conclusion? Oh, not at that time. Oh, not at that time. No. Okay. Not at that time. When you went into the house, what part of the house did you go into? I went into the room. It’s adjacent to the kitchen. Um, and I stood there with Brian Albbert. Can you describe what kind of room that would be? Yeah, it was a um just a typical uh family room type uh room. It was uh not large. It was between the garage and the kitchen. You met with Brian Albert? Brian Albert answered the door and let us into the house. Did you understand what his relationship was to that house? He was the homeowner. Did Sergeant Lank walk in with you? He did. Did he stay in that living area? No, he went to the kitchen area and sat down with Jen McCabe. Could you see the kitchen area from where you were? I could see a portion of the kitchen area. Did you see anybody else in the kitchen area with Mrs. McCabe and Sergeant Lank? There were people in the kitchen area. There was nobody with Sergeant Lank or Miss McCabe. Could you hear their conversation? No. Were you trying to listen? No. Were you speaking to Mr. Albert? I was. Did you take the time to make observations of him? Objection. I’ll allow it. Did you take the time to make observations of him? Yes. Did you speak to him? Yes. Did he speak to you? Yes. Was there anything about his mannerisms or affect that caused you any concern? No. It was just a social conversation. There was nothing of concern at all. Was there anything about it that caused you to hone in or be concerned? I’ll allow that. No. Did you get a chance to look around that living area at the items? I I didn’t look around or just with my eyes. Um, did you get to see that area? I did. Did you see anything broken or looked out of place? No. Nothing. Anything that caused you any type of concern? Nothing. When you looked towards the kitchen, did you see anything that looked different or suspicious in any way? Nothing. Was the interaction, did it cause you any alarm or concerns? No. After Sergeant Lank had a opportunity to speak to Mrs. McCabe and you spoke to Brian Albert, what did you do next? Um, we we left. Where did you go? uh we went back to the uh police department and were uh informed that the state police were uh going to respond to the hospital and that we didn’t need to respond to the hospital. When you heard that the state police was then going to get involved in the investigation, what does Canton do when the state police takes over an investigation? Well, I it was based off of a conversation I had with my chief in the detective sergeant’s office. Was there a decision about Canton’s involvement in the ongoing investigation? There was. What was that decision? That we should recuse ourselves from any investig any further investigative interviews. And why was that? Um because our uh best detective uh his name was Kevin Albert and he was the brother of the homeowner and I didn’t want any um potential bias whether unconscious or subjective to be perceived by the O’Keefe’s uh by the O’Keefe family. So when the state police got involved and you had the conversation with the chief, was that the end of your uh efforts towards this? It was the end of our efforts until um you know I helped facilitate during the search warrant on uh February 1st. And so at some point was the defendant’s Lexus brought to the Canton Police Department? It was. Was it put in a particular area at the Canton Police Department? It was. What area? the Sallyport. What’s a Sally Port? Sally Port is where when we have an arrest, we bring our prisoners in. It’s basically a uh extra-large garage. It has four doors. They’re numbered 1, two, three, and four. Uh we typically um go in door four and pull towards door three. Door four is lowered and then prisoners are walked into the booking area, which is also secure. The exterior doors to the sally port can only be opened by the dispatch council. When crime scene services came to look at the car, was that the same day, the 29th or later time? No, it was February 1st. Did the Lexus remain in the Sallyport area from the 29th until February 1st? Yes. When representatives from the crime lab from the Massachusetts State Police came on February 1st, who provided them access to the Lexus? I was one of the people there that that was there. I don’t know if I provided them direct access, but I certainly would have um I assisted them um if they needed things. That’s when the chain of custody, the exchange of custody for the blood samples and the glass occurred as well. And during their processing of the the Lexus, were you there for parts of it? I was in and out, yes, but I did not partake. Thank you very much. Please. Mr. Jackson, is this video up there yours or is it the com? It’s not mine. Oh, is it? All right. Now, your honor. Yes, Mr. Gallagher, you have already established that you were at the scene on January 29th, early morning January 29th, 2022. Uh, we’ve seen the video of the of the leaf blower. Correct. That is correct. So, you were integral to at least an initial search of the scene which recovered the drinking glass that you’ve shown us as well as some of the blood byproduct that you’ve shown that you’ve talked about. That’s correct. Yes. Okay. Uh you were the ranking person on scene. You’ve already described that. Yes, that is correct. There were also several other officers from Canton Pere there with you. Yes, there was uh four other officers. Yes. Can you name those other officers? Yeah. Detective Sergeant Lank L. Uh Detective Sergeant Good G O D E. Officer Melany, M U L A N E Y, and Officer Sarif, S A R A F. Okay. when you initially let me back up and ask a different question. Given the fact that you were the ranking officer, the way that it works in a police department is everybody sort of reports up the chain of command. Correct. Correct. That is correct. So they would have all reported up to you in some particular That’s correct. And then of course you report to the I think you’re the deputy chief and then the deputy chief reports on up to the chief. Correct. That is correct. Um, you were involved in not only the exposing of some of that blood byproduct uh but also exposing the glass uh with the leaf blower. Correct. That is correct. You were responsible for utilizing certain equipment. You chose a leaf blower at the time. Correct. I did. Yes. Uh there was also I’m guessing that there there was also some use of your hands and or the the gloved hands with some others to to recover some of the items. Yeah. I didn’t use my hands. Uh, how did you get the glass into a bag? That was detective Sergeant Lank. Somebody had to pick it up, right? Correct. That’s what I mean. The use of hands to to manipulate some of the evidence. Correct. Yeah. I I apologize. I didn’t understand that question. I thought you were speaking about me. It’s probably my my my fault, not yours. No, that’s okay. There was also some uh plastic cups that we’ve talked about. We’ll talk more about those in a second. Those were utilized as well. Correct. They were. Yes. And you were responsible for the use of those as well. Yes. It was my decision. Yes. In terms of the search of the scene, the recovery of evidence, the recovery of biological material, the use of tools to recover those biological materials, all of that rested at least ultimately at the scene on your shoulders. Correct. Yes, it did. Isn’t it true that you weren’t interviewed in this case with regard to anything having to do with this case until April 3rd, 2024? Correct. Yes, we could call it an interview. It’s uh when I met with the prosecutor. Yes. And that was about 2 and 1/2 years, nearly 2 and 1/2 years after this incident. Correct. Yes, that’s correct. Michael Proctor. You know that name? I do. Who is Michael Proctor? Uh he was uh one of the troopers assigned to investigate the case. As a matter of fact, he was the lead investigator for the case. Correct. I I I don’t know if he was lead or uh trooper mechanic. I I I don’t know. As you sit here, you don’t know that Michael Proctor was the lead case agent for I know he was one of them. Yes. Okay. Uh do you know that he was the lead investigator assigned to the case? I don’t I I had nothing to do with the DA’s office. Right. I I know you didn’t have I don’t know how they assigned their cases, council. I don’t know what you want me to say. I can’t say what I don’t know. Mr. Gallagher, I’m not asking you to. I’m just asking if I do not I I did not know he was lead. I knew he was one of the leads. Okay. I believe they they do it in a tandem, but I’m not sure. Okay. He may have had a partner. Correct. That is correct. Yes. But it’s not unusual to have a lead case agent, the person who’s responsible most of the search warrant writing and the memorialization of doc and documentation of evidence collection and the movement of evidence and booking into evidence, things like that. That is correct, but I don’t know anything about who wrote their affidavit or who logged their evidence in. I wouldn’t know that. You’re also familiar with Yuri Buchanan, correct? I know who he is. You’re also uh familiar with um Lieutenant Tully. I know. Yes. They’re all Massachusetts State Police officers, correct? Yes, they all are. Did Michael Proctor interview you before April of 2024? He did not. Did your Buchanan interview you before April of 2024? No, he did not. Did Lieutenant Tully interview you before April of 2024? No, he did not. Did anybody else from the the Canton Police Department any deputy chief or the chief interview you formally about your uh conduct and responsibilities before April of 2024? I don’t understand that question. Did anybody at Canton PD separating out Massachusetts State Police? Did you sit down at Canton PD and provide an interview with anybody at Canton PD about your conduct at the scene? What do you mean by conduct? Going to the scene, collecting evidence, securing evidence, transporting evidence, booking evidence, those kinds of things. Your conduct at the scene, sir. Yeah, we briefed. Yeah, I briefed my superiors. Yes. Okay. Other than briefing, was there a formal report written? No. or a formal interview conducted of you? No, absolutely not. Okay. Um, tell us when you wrote your report about what happened at the scene memorializing what you did at the scene. I didn’t. You didn’t write a report about this the scene that day at the scene. Correct. About this investigation. I only did the metadata. I report. I did not uh write a report uh at the scene. You never, in fact, the fact is you never wrote any report about what happened at the scene. Correct. Correct. You didn’t memorialize that in any formal way uh on Canton PD letterhead to describe what you did and how you did it at the scene. No. Normally, when you report to a scene as a first responder, you would be expected to write a report about that, whatever that conduct is. I’m not the supervisor. Now, what if you’re the ranking person at a scene that ultimately turns into a homicide scene? Well, we we don’t know it’s a homicide scene at this time. We we don’t even know it’s there’s there’s a crime committed at this time. My responsibilities are to make sure reports are written, not not to necessarily write the reports myself. I am the I’m the supervisor. It’s my job to make sure reports are written, evidence is logged, those types of things. Under ordinary circumstances, you would respond to a scene as a supervisor and you would oversee what other people are doing, what you’re doing. That’s correct. Can I finish? Sure. I don’t want to talk over each other. I apologize. You would want to supervise or oversee what your subordinate officers, whatever he or she might be doing or they might be doing, you’re going to oversee that, but they’re the ones actually conducting the the investigation or picking up evidence or doing the interviews and writing those things of that nature. Correct. Detective Sergeant Likes investigation. Yes. So in that circumstance, you wouldn’t be expected to write a report because all of that conduct is memorialized by others subordinate to the supervisor. Correct. Correct. But in this case, quite the opposite happened. You were the one that was in the video utilizing the leaf blower. Correct. That’s correct. You were the one that actually exposed the drinking glass. Correct. Correct. Yes. You noted the drinking blast and actually called somebody else over to to take a look at it. Correct. That’s correct. You directed someone, Sergeant Blake, to pick up the drinking glass and recover it as a potential piece of evidence. Correct. That is correct. You noted the blood or the coagulation of blood in and around that area. Correct. That is correct. You noted where you believed the drinking glass was. In other words, what location, if there were great coordinates, where it would be. Correct. Correct. And you instructed others to transport that important evidence back to Canton PD to have it booked. Correct. That is correct. You also secured the plastic containers in which to to to um recover the blood. That’s correct. You also directed someone to get a bag to put the the plastic containers in and ultimately transport it. Correct. That is correct. So, you would agree with me, Mr. Mr. Gallagher, that in this circumstance, you were the centerpiece of the recovery of evidence and the investigation as it was at that time in that limited context. You were the centerpiece of what was happening at the scene. Correct. And I made sure it was documented by Detective Seren, but you didn’t find it important enough to write a report yourself. I think that’s poor misrepresentation. Um, it’s there’s a there’s a person fighting for their life. It was very important. Um, when you were there at the scene at what time was it, by the way? I got there shortly after 7. Okay. You knew that that person who was fighting for his life had already been transported and was in good care as best care we can provide at Good Samaritan Hospital. Correct. That is correct. So certainly you’re not excusing away the idea that you didn’t memorialize your conduct because you were too busy fighting for someone’s life. That’s not what you’re saying. No, it definitely is not what I’m saying. Obviously, reporting to a scene and supervising a scene is one thing, but actually gathering evidence is a whole next level. You would agree with that? Sure. Because just to put a fine point on it, responding to a scene as a supervisor, you want to make sure everybody’s doing their duty. But the officer or officers who, for instance, uncover, let’s say it’s a knife or a gun or some weapon or something like that, actually documenting and picking up that evidence and handling it appropriate way. That is all highly, highly technical. It’s very important to get it right and memorialize it all. Correct. That is correct. That’s why you’re highly trained. to memorialize and report everything that you do in that regard in a report that can later be used forensically. In other words, in a in a courtroom setting to recreate as best you can with as much detail as you can exactly what you did and how you did it and where it was done. Correct. Sure. Yes. Officer Lank wrote a report in this case. Sure. Did officer Melany? I believe he did. Yes. Did officer Serif? Yes. Officer Good. Sergeant Good. Yes. But you did not. I did not. Who was the first officer to find any potential physical evidence at the scene, be it blood or glass? I I’m can’t answer that. It was not me. I was not the uh um the first thing that was spotted was the pink spotting, not the glass. Okay. Who’s the first person to see the glass? I think it was myself as I uncovered it with the leaf ball. One of the important things that we’ve talked about, Mr. Gallagher, is documenting the details of evidence recovery, not just the fact that something was recovered. Correct. That’s correct. So, you’d want to know what time of day it was recovered. Correct. Sure. You’d want to know who was there and who was around when it was recovered. Correct. Yes. You’d want to know what the item is, the condition of the item, right? Yes. You’d also want to know exactly where it’s recovered. Correct. Yes. In other words, as best you can to pinpoint the exact location where an item was found. That could play a huge role in any investigation, be it criminal or otherwise. It could. It could. Did you diagram or or draw a diagram back at Ken PD or out at the scene? No. About where that glass was found? No, I I did no reports or diagrams. Did you diagram exactly where you recovered the blood spots that you did recover? No. Did you at least, if you didn’t write a report, did you at least take notes on a pad about what you were doing? Yeah. Conditions weren’t um it was pretty hard to take notes at that time, but I did not take notes. No. At some point you mentioned a person by the name of uh Tom Kellaher. Deputy Chief Keller. That’s correct. Um who is Deputy Chief Keller? Uh he’s the deputy chief of Canton police. He was active on active duty at the time. When I say active duty, I don’t mean that morning, that hour. I mean just generally. Yes. He was a lieutenant at that time. He was someone to whom, as a matter of fact, probably the only person to whom at Canton PD you actually reported, correct? Up the chain of He was the only person to whom you reported up the chain of command, meaning he was your direct report. He was in charge of detectives at that time. And then of course the chief would be above him. Correct. Uh deputy chief and chief. Okay. When you responded to the scene, um, Deputy Chief Keller did not come out of his house and take over the the investigation. Correct. Correct. That was yours to to detail. That is correct. At least while you were there. That is correct. So, can you describe what you did to preserve the crime scene? I’m sorry, to preserve the scene because at that time you said you did not know if it was a crime scene. Is that right? That’s correct. What did you do in terms of actually preserving the scene for later investigation? What steps did you take for later? I I Can you explain later investigation? So, let me take a step back. Sure. Have you been trained to preserve scenes? Yes. Okay. What’s the reason that we want to preserve a scene? What does that mean? Collect evidence. Collect evidence and make sure nothing is disturbed. Correct. Correct. Civilians can’t trace through or walk through evidence. Correct. That’s correct. Uh you’ve heard the phrase, for instance in, evidence out. Someone traes through a crime scene. You bring evidence with you and you take it back out with you on your shoes or on your feet or your breath or your saliva, whatever it might be. Very familiar with that. Yes. Preserving the scene, his best efforts, his best practices to make sure that nothing is moved, uh, touched, messed with in any way. Correct. That’s correct. And that’s what was done here. What did you do? That’s my question. What did you do to preserve that scene? So, there was nobody, there were no civilians ever to trample through. Were rescue efforts made uh on Mr. O’Keefe? Yes, that’s priority. Um so rescue workers do go into any type of scene. Uh medical life-saving measures come first. Once all apparatus was off scene um the original officers put out crime scene tape to mark an area um and later uh it was documented, it was photographed and um evidence was collected and it was searched by by you at least initially with the with the leaf blower. Correct. Okay. So, you were interested in the area that By the way, I want to clear this up. Make sure I’m not mistaken. You described for Mr. Brennan basically where Mr. O’Keefe’s body was. Correct. Yes. Yes. You never saw his body in situ. You never saw his body in place. That is correct. You were told by Sergeant Lank generally where his body is, correct? Yes. And Sergeant Lank actually never saw Mr. Wy either. That’s my next question. Okay. And Mr. Good. And Sergeant Good as well. Right. Never saw Sergeant Lank never saw drug actually any place. Correct. That is correct. So you’re receiving information from Sergeant Lank that he did not have personal knowledge of and then you’re providing that information later to crime scene investigators who are trying to establish a diagram or a a some sort of a chart about where that where that evidence was, where the drinking glass was, where his body was. Correct? No, I never spoke to anybody um in that manner about that. Didn’t you ultimately go out to the scene along with others uh at Massachusetts State Police when they had a drone overhead? No, I you’re mistaken. I can clarify it for you if you wish. Sure. So, on February 1st, after the execution of the warrant, they wanted to go down to the scene. Uh it was Trooper Proctor and somebody from the cars team. I’m not sure of the name. Uh once they got down there, um I I did show them where I was shown John O’Keefe was. They did want to put up a drone, but they could not do it because they were too close to Norwood airport and because of FAA regulations. Okay. And that was the last of my involvement with that. I hope that clarifies things for you. Bring the drone. I’m interested in the first part which was um you accompanied Drupal Proctor to the scene. Correct. Correct. There were other members of cars. C A R S I think there was one uh crash accident reconstruction section. I I’m assuming. Okay. So, it’s a forensic a member of MSP who does forensic uh diagrams. Correct. I would say I I don’t know if they do diagrams. I don’t know what they do. Or reconstruction of some sort. Sure. Reconstruction of some sort. So you were there to help provide information about where Mr. O’B’s body was found. Correct. And be a a Canton police officer present in case any neighbors had had come out. So you were there to help provide information about or at least you did provide information to them about where Mr.’s body was found. Oh, sure. Yes. Except you didn’t see Mr. O’s body, did you? No, I did not. So that was a guess on your part. It wasn’t. It was what I was shown. It’s the information I had. Yeah, it was the information you were told by Sergeant Lang. Correct. Yes. Who also didn’t see John O’Keefe in place on the ground at 3450. Correct. That is correct. Yes. So his would be a guest also. Correct. Well, we’re going backwards. So he was told by Sergeant Good and etc. So it was information passed along which is what police officers do, right? Uh, but the person, the police officer that was out there at the scene who was helping the reconstructionist established the formal report in the car’s report was an officer who not only didn’t see where John’s body was, you got information about where John’s body was from someone who didn’t see it either. Um, can we at least agree on that? You have to go back to the beginning. I didn’t understand the beginning of that question. It’s very I’ll try it again. The point is, Mr. Gallagher, you happen to be tapped as the person who is going to assist the cars folks, the MSP, in creating their cars, their ultimately their cars report. No. Isn’t it true that you accompanied Trooper Proctor and members of the cars unit to document Fairview Road and the the scene of the incident? Yeah, I I thought I explained it could not be done. Okay. So, I wasn’t I I I only went to show them where Mr. O’Keefe was and uh in case any neighbors came out. I wasn’t there to assist in any documentation at all. You were there. You knew Brian Hull is I do. Have you reviewed Brian’s report? I have not. You showed me one section of it. Um, is it true that what you actually told Brian Tony is that you went with Trooper Proctor and you’re already shaking your head now? I haven’t finished the question. No, I got that part wrong. You accompanied Trooper Proctor. No, what’s wrong is I was interviewed by Lieutenant Tully. That was a meeting I had with prosecutor Lowi. Okay. Trooper Tully was present. Trooper Tully never asked me any question. I don’t recall Trooper Tully ever asking me a question, sir. So, let me be a little bit more defined. So in troop’s report where he uh he reports what you said you were actually talking to Adam rally my colleague sitting up in front. Correct. Okay. So now we got that cleared up. Let me ask you again. Did you say in front of trooper toy that you accompanied trooper proctor and members of the cars unit to document Fairview Road? Meaning they were documenting Fair View Road. You It’s uh not clear. The report’s not clear. They were going to document Fabby Road, not me. So, you just said something that I want to follow up on. Okay. The report’s not clear. Correct. That’s correct. So, that’s an inaccurate report. I wouldn’t call it inaccurate at all. I’m just saying you’re misinterpreting the wording. I see. And I’m misinterpreting it even though I just read it directly from the report. Yeah. Sometimes sentences have different meanings. Yes, you are. Okay. The reality is you did end up going to the scene, correct? I did. And you accompanied I don’t want to use a word that you’ll challenge. You went with trooper Proctor. Correct. I took my cruise at 34. Yes. Uh you were there at the same time Trooper Proctor was. Yes. And you were aware that the cars team was there so that they could document the scene. Correct. I I don’t know what the purpose of the drone was. I’m not familiar with that section. I I thought I answered that question. I’m not familiar with what they do. But you do believe that as you sit here, you were there. We weren’t. You do believe that that’s the reason that they were there was to document the scene, put up a drone. Okay. I I I don’t know what what you mean by document. I don’t know if it was to photograph. I guess which if if you mean by document photograph I I guess it could uh I would agree. If it means take measurements, I wouldn’t know. Okay. Um did you tell any of the members of the cars team where you believed John’s body was? I believe it was Trooper Proctor, but the I believe he was there. Yes. Uh, Trooper Proctor obviously was not there when God’s body was there either. Correct. That is correct. Yes. So, he would have gotten that information from you. That is correct. So, now that’s three people. It’s It’s probably more quite honestly. Yeah. Well, I’m just talking about this report. Correct. Cars report. That’s three people in line. None of whom saw John’s body, John O’Keefe’s body as it lay in the lawn when he was That is correct. Yes. And there’s no photographs um of of Mr. O’Keefe. Oh, no. Ask the location. We wouldn’t nobody would photograph somebody u undergoing life-saving measures. Wouldn’t be appropriate. There’s no video specifically. They wouldn’t take video of somebody um undergoing life life-saving measurements. There’s no body cam. We don’t have bodyb cameras. There’s no dash cam that shows it. Well, dash cameras would be on the road. Mr. O’Keefe was approximately 8 to 10 feet off the road. Well, hang on a second. You’re not sure where Mr. O’Keefe was because you never saw him. That’s why I used a range. Yes. Right. I know where the blood was. I know where the glass was. Right. You don’t know if he was 7 to 9 ft off. That’s correct. 12 ft off. You can’t say only approximately. You You are correct. Yes. You did um meet with officer Serif. Uh you met with all the uh all the officers when you uh arrived at the scene, correct? Yes. And officer Serif had been there from the beginning of the morning. Yes. Um, Officer Serif didn’t report to you at that time any statements attributable to my client. He did not. No. Um, you later went back to 34 Fair View with Sergeant Lank. That’s correct. And you rode back. Did you ride back to Kanton PD with Sergeant Lank or separate cruisers? Um, which time? I apologize. I’m sorry. That’s that’s a vague question on my part. You went back to 34 Fair View with just Officer Lank and you described a circumstance in which you went in saw you were led in by Brian Albert. He went to the kitchen. You were in the family room or some other place. Right by the kitchen. Yeah. The room off the kitchen. Yes. Okay. So, right next to where he was interviewing That’s correct. Jennifer McCabe. Yes. Uh did you ride back from that meeting with or that that uh event to Canton PD with Sergeant Lank? Yes. Uh, and Sergeant Lank didn’t say anything to you about his interview with Jennifer McCabe at that time. I don’t recall our conversation on the way back. Okay. And you didn’t write a report about any conversation that you had with Officer Serif. You didn’t write a report about any conversation you had with Sergeant Lank. No, they’re responsible for writing their own reports. Got it. You did say that let me back up and ask you a different question. Um, you testified about a year ago uh in another proceeding. You talked a little bit about the evidence collection of the bi the biological material, the blood or the as you I’m guessing at that time presumed blood. You haven’t done any testing. That’s correct. Yes, sir. But you assumed it was blood just because of your experience and it looked like it could be blood on. That’s correct. Um how far were you from camp? Uh approximately a drive mile and a half. Mile and a half. Uh you had your cruiser with you? I had my personal vehicle with me. Your personal vehicle? Uh, in other words, your ambulance where you could get from point A to point B if you wanted to. Yeah. I wouldn’t I was the scene supervisor. I wasn’t leaving the scene. Okay. But you also had subordinate folks at the scene that you could have dispatched had you wanted to. Correct. They all had cruisers. Yes, they did. Or or personal vehicles. I’m not sure which. I’m sorry. Or personal vehicles. I’m not sure which. I was the only one with a personal vehicle. Uh, Detective Sergeant Lank had a Toyota Tundra pickup truck that is not marked and but it’s assigned to our detective unit. So, if you wish to as a ranking officer at the scene, you could have dispatched one or more of those officers to run an errand to go do something in further of the investig furtherance of the investigation had you wanted to. Yeah, I actually did that. Okay. You did. What did you do in that regard? Uh, you remember I sent uh Sergeant Good to get the leaf blow. Got it. You also know that Canton PD has evidence collection bags at Canton PD. Yes. You also know that they have materials and tools to gather biological material. Correct. Uh we do have swabs. Yes. And those swabs go in little containers to maintain their uh their sanitary nature. Correct. That is correct. Yes. In other words, if you see a blood stain, you don’t just walk up with a Kleenex that you find on the ground and wipe it up. There’s your blood stain. There is a a process for for gathering that type of evidence, correct? Sure. If you’re looking for DNA, you can use a bloody Kleenex to your point. Um, it’ be kind of an emergency. Yeah, absolutely my point. Exactly. But if you’re if you’re a mile from the CPD, Yeah. you could have gone back and gotten the swap. Could have, but you didn’t. Didn’t want to um because of the weather. Cuz you just said because it’s an emergency and uh we thought it was an emergency there. I mean, the storm was coming down terribly and um I believe if we didn’t collect that biological matter um we weren’t going to get that biological matter. But PD was a mile mile and a half away, four or five minutes in a in a blizzard. Still in a blizzard. It was 3 minutes in in good weather. Probably four, five, six minutes in a blizzard. Correct. I I I’m not sure. So, let’s call it 12 15 minutes. You certainly could have gone back if you wanted to. You could have just asked one of your officers to go back and get swabs and properly collect the blood material. Sure. Sure. And I I believed 15 minutes would have made a difference. And what you did instead is well 15 minutes would have made a difference, but you asked Sergeant Good to drive to his house and get a leaf blower. Yes. And while he was doing that, we were documenting the scene with photographs. You could have documented the scene photographs even if you went back and get a swab. What’s the difference? Because we were we were ongoing. It was ongoing. I wasn’t leaving the scene. I didn’t ask you to leave the scene. I mean, I I didn’t ask if you’re leaving. I needed the other officers. We talked about scene security. I already let one officer go. I now have three left. We’re securing that scene. So, you saw pink stains in the in the snow. Correct. That’s correct. And you said, “Officer, good.” Probably called Sean Sarge, go home and he’ll blow up. That is correct. could have said, “Officer Molini, get your butt over to Captain PD and pick up 10 swabs.” Correct. Uh, he wouldn’t have had access to the swabs. Oh, so now one of your officers could have gotten the swabs even if the lieutenant, a regular lieutenant had dispatched him to go get a swap. Uh, because he’s doesn’t have access to the uh BCI, the office of BCI where our stuff is kept. Could you have made a phone call? No, nobody there would have had access at that time. It was only officer de on the desk. So, you’re the only person that could have gotten those swamps. Sergeant Lang could have gotten in as well. So, Sergeant L could have too. Sure. But you didn’t say that? No, definitely didn’t. Okay. Um, what you did do, however, is you went to the neighbor’s house. Happened to be Tom Kell, right? The de the uh lieutenant of detectives. Yes. Right. And Lieutenant Keller gave you red solo cups. Yes. I asked for plastic or glass containers. Uh he had solo cups and um I utilized them. The same kind of solo cups that we all see at backyard barbecues. Yep. They hold liquid terrifically. They’re also not sealed. Correct. They are not. They’re also not used normally. I mean they did they were here. They’re not normally used for evidence collection. Correct. Oh, absolutely not. And then you decided you needed to transport that very important biological material back to Canton PD for storage and safety. Correct. That’s correct. And what was the why was it important to transport that blood material? So what what are the what are the factors that you considered weight and balance in terms of getting that material back to Ken PD in good condition sanitary condition. So a criminalist could extract a proper DNA sample. What would happen for instance if that what material I don’t know were contaminated? Contaminated how? You tell me. You’re a professional. So, uh, DNA is pretty hardy, pretty forensically stable. The only things that are going to harm it are radiation, ultraviolet light, harsh chemicals such as bleach. Uh, that’s not present here. Was it I wasn’t then you would have two sets of DNA when it’s tested, which would benefit you. Well, depends on who DNA is. That’s correct. That’s correct. Um, yes. while you were I’m going to stay on this for a second. Um, so obviously there’s a reason why blood swabs or biological swabs are handled with such care. For instance, a DNA analyst is going to put on gloves. Correct. Often times they’re going to put on a mask. Correct. I don’t know about that. Often times they put on goggles. Is that right? Depends what they’re testing. Right. Yeah. But in order to go out and collect something, you’ll see CSI crime scene investigators in full body suits when you walk into a crime scene. Yeah, you can. Because you don’t want to contaminate the scene with your own hair off your arm or an eyelash falling into a a blood stain. Correct. That is correct. Right. So, there are protocols. I mean, you you said just a second ago, Galler, well, it’s DNA. Unless somebody pours bleach in it, you’re pretty much golden, right? That’s not quite the fact. And that’s not quite what I said. No, it’s not quite what you said. You were suggesting that it’s hardy enough that it doesn’t really matter if it’s contaminated or not. If there’s multiple people’s DNA, just benefits everybody. No, I simply asked what you meant by contamination. Okay. So, it can be contaminated with debris. Is that right? Sure, it can. It could be contaminated with other people’s DNA. Is that right? It can. It could be contaminated with foreign items, foreign either ferosols or uh somebody somebody’s spilled when you’re talking. Correct. Sure. With a thousand things hypothetically, right? Of course, these solo cups didn’t have lids on them, right? They did not. They were open. Yes. You didn’t photograph where you picked up the samples. No. You didn’t document where you picked up the samples. No. So, if the samples were in six, how many solo cups were there? Six. six solo cups. We don’t know as we sit here where each of those solo cups uh contents came from specifically, do we? Specifically, no. Okay. Then those solo cups with no lids were placed into a bag, right? That’s correct. You said on direct examination that this was a brown paper bag, right? It is. Stop and shop, I believe. And you said that that stop and shop bag is other than having the words stop and shop on it versus evidence on it. Basically the one in the same thing, same dimensions, made out of the same materials. Yes. Right. But with an evidence bag, you know exactly where it came from and who’s handled it. Not necessarily. Comes from a manufacturer. Sure. whose job it is to secure those bags so that they are not mishandling so they can have some sort of bonafide that they’re clean and ready to accept evidence in say for instance I don’t know the investigation of a homicide of a police officer important stuff right we’re not at a homicide of a police officer at this point I’m I’m just talking about evidence bags in general evidence bags in general in other words I’m trying to think of some of the most important investigations around the manufacturers of those evidence those bags, manufacture them and send them in a way so that their bonafide is the the the provenence of those bags is maintained. Correct. And protected. That’s the way they ship them. Yes. Right. And Kenton PD pays extra money for those bags for that very purpose. I’m sure they do. Yes. You mentioned almost tongue and cheek. Look, except for the price, they’re probably pretty close. Yes. There’s a reason that there’s a price difference, right? What would the reason? What’s the reason? Well, on top of the shop, I can go pay 10 cents. Yeah. Cuz I don’t really care who’s where it’s been or who’s handling, right? It’s got my milk and my eggs in it. Really don’t care. Yeah. I I don’t know. I don’t know how they price it. Um because how they package it. I I don’t have any knowledge. Well, the other one that mentioned uh the price point. Yeah, I agree with you on that. I’m sorry. We’re speaking over each other. Okay. I apologize. I’m sorry, Mr. Down. You got to wait for me. Yep. There’s a reason. My point is there’s a reason, right? Yes. The evidence bags are more expensive because there is a way they’re manufactured and they’re taken care of and Canton PD is willing to pay that extra price like every other law enforcement agency because of that. Correct. All right. So, they’re not quite the same, are they? No. Those solo cups were placed in the evidence bag uncovered. Yes. The evidence bag was then placed in Sergeant Lang’s vehicle. It was closed and uh Sergeant Lang transported it to his vehicle. Yes. Okay. When you say closed, you mean the top of it was rolled up. Correct. Or folded over. Correct. Okay. It wasn’t forensically sealed. Not at that time, though. There was no evidence tape that went on it. Not at that time, though. Matter of fact, the cups were still open and could slosh around. U assume they melted. Yes. There’s liquid blood and liquid water. Like snow. That’s correct. And you indicated that those were, at least you believe those were placed in an evidence locker, temporary evidence locker, correct? No, the blood samples were put in a refrigerated unit. My mistake. I I thought the refrigerator was the temporary source lock. It’s different. Yes, lockers, not refrigerated. That’s where the glass would go into a locker. Okay. This was placed into a refrigerator. That’s correct. That was to maintain the integrity of the sample, the biological sample inside the cups, correct? That’s correct. You have an evidence log of that? I don’t. No. You’ve never seen an evidence log indicating that those were actually put into a refrigerated? I removed them myself, so I know they were in the refrigerated unit. When did you remove them? On February 1st, right? We’re talking about January 29th. They were taken to Canton PD by officer Mike Sergeant Mike on January 29th. I’m just asking let me ask a foundational question. Do does Canton PD maintain something called evidence laws? Um I don’t know the answer to that. I’m not the evidence officer. No, there is there is it’s all computerized, right? So, like I explained earlier, when when they do get logged in, um the officer uh puts the description of the property, hits the space bar, and the computer generates an evidence number. Right. And that evidence number is associated with just that piece of evidence. Just that piece of evidence, correct? And every time it’s checked out or put back in, there is a log created. Correct. It’s an Yeah, they do it by computer. Yes. It’s a digital fingerprint, right? Correct. All right. I mean, you you’re a former narco specialist, right? You did narcotics for years, right? I did. Drugs about the most sensitive thing out there, right? I mean, you get a a bottle of fentanyl. You’re not going to set it on the on the uh desk. You’re going to make sure that damn thing gets logged exactly how it’s supposed to. Correct. Of course, because it needs to have a trace of where it goes and who touches it and who has access to it. Correct. That is correct. You’ve never seen an evidence log for these items that were taken from 34 Fair View and supposedly put into the Well, not supposedly because you took them out and ultimately went into a refrigerated evidence locker. Yeah. I wouldn’t have access to the evidence locker. It’s a very Our evidence room is a very strict process. There’s only two people that can even uh have access to the permanent once it goes into permanent evidence. And it’s the admin sergeant that that changes the custody when it comes out for court, if an item has to come out for court, where it has to be trans uh transported to another agency or or if an officer needs it removed from evidence for further inspection. U the admin sergeant will take care of that. That’s the way Mr. Jackson, you’re not going to finish today, right? In two minutes. Two questions and I’m also All right. Two questions. Thank you. That’s the way it’s supposed to work, correct? Yes. But you’ve never, as you sit here, you’ve never seen an evidence log determining where that blood went and who was handling it between January 29th and February 1st. I have never seen an evidence log. That’s all I had. At least at this time. All right. All right. Lieutenant, we’re going to have you come back tomorrow morning. So juries, that’s it for today. The same creations. Please do not discuss this case with anyone. Don’t do any independent research or investigation into this case. If you happen to see here, read anything about it. Um, please disregard it. Let us know tomorrow and be very careful with your social media use. All right. See you soon. All right. Please close your notebooks. Follow me. Goodbye. You don’t need me for anything, right? No, your honor. There’s one there’s one very very short issue. Please seated. Yes. Hey there, Karen Reed, trial watchers. You know what? A lot of the trials we cover remind me of that the world is unfortunately very unpredictable. And I’ll tell you what, having a great lawyer matters so much. That is where a great partner and sponsor, Morgan and Morgan, comes in. This is a firm with over a thousand attorneys. You know why? Because they win a lot. 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Karen Read is back on trial again after investigators say she drove drunk, hit her Boston cop boyfriend, John O’Keefe, then left him to die in the snow. O’Keefe was found dead outside the home of fellow Boston police officer Brian Albert, in Canton, Massachusetts. In July of 2024, a judge declared a mistrial in her first trial. Read has been charged with second-degree murder, motor vehicle manslaughter, and leaving the scene of a collision causing death.

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