I'm an international student in NRW. About a month ago, I was jogging with my colleagues (riverside where the street is quiet narrow only a single road for walking and biking, but there's not separated portion to walk or bike) when an incident occurred. We were running in a group when an elderly man approached from behind on an e-bike. He rang his bell twice, and we moved to the right as much as we could. I was at the back of the group. As he got closer, he felt there wasn't enough space to pass, so he pushed my shoulder aside with his right hand while trying to balance the bike with one hand. Due to this, he lost his balance and fell. According to a colleague and a witness, he was riding at around 30 km/h till the time he fell. The area mostly had grass, but some spots had stones. After falling, he started calling us idiots. We asked if we could help, moved his bike to the side, and called an ambulance as he requested.
Two of us stayed at the scene until the police arrived, explained the situation, and left when they said we could go. A few days later, we received a letter from the police stating we were witnesses. Now we have received another letter asking for our liability insurance number (Haftpflichtversicherungsnummer) from his
lawyer I guess, I do not have one and other person who was there, she is based here and they have family lawyer and well as liability insurance. What should I do in this case? Is there any possibility to get a lawyer with low cost or so (as I really do not have much money) or what to do next in this case. I'm sorry l'm lost.
TL;DR
While jogging with colleagues, an elderly man on an e-bike tried to pass us, pushed my shoulder, lost balance, and fell. We called an ambulance, helped him, and explained to the police. Now we received a letter asking for our liability insurance number.
by Realistic_Pilot2364
33 comments
Lawyer up. Your Studentenwerk/AStA likely offers legal help for free.
from how i read it, he rammed you because he overtook you in a dangerous way without enough distance and got hurt because of it and you yourself have witnesses
lol sue him for ramming you and not keeping distance or breaking
It does not sound like you are at fault, however you cannot ignore these letters. As a student, there should be free legal aid at your university where you can go for a first consultation/ initial help. Talk to them and react accordingly after – do not talk to the police or reply to the lawyer without having your own legal representation.
A) get a third party insurance for the future
B) get a lawyer, or
C) not that recommended as at r/legaladvicegermany or how it is called
Also establish the facts: are bicycles allowed on the path? Are pestrians allowed? What signage?
Since you are an international student, look at the legal consultancy your university or asta provides. They usually have something like this https://asta-bonn.de/de/service/beratungen/rechtsberatung where a lawyer tells you what steps you should take going forward with your current legal problem. They are not representing you as a lawyer, just making a first assessment of your Situation.
Ah shit, i have absolutely no clue but since you didn’t push him, he pushed you, and he was unallowed driving on a pedestrian walk – I would assume that you have no fault at all and I would most likely ignore the letter.
What was written in the letter from the police? Check if your university offers some kind of legal advice from free or little money.
Edit: liability insurance is really important – things can go to shit pretty quickly – for example if this dude has now lifelong disability and your are proven guilty it will become really expensive and you have to pay it yourself. So please try to get some kind of liability insurance (maybe there are special regulations since you are a foreign student) – it’s not expensive and everybody can make mistakes (or are made guilty for others mistakes)
You are at fault for jogging outside in germany.
like what were you thinking.
Lawyer up. Do not answer any letters on your own, no matter how innocent the letter or the reply looks like to you.
IANAL, but the case looks like bullshit to me. In pedestrian/bike _shared_ roads, the cyclist must always yield
Get a lawyer, because of the injured person. You should have a good case. On shared cycle and pedestrian paths, cyclists do not have any right of way over pedestrians. On such combined routes, cyclists must pay more attention than pedestrians. They should be able to stop at any time, even if pedestrians unexpectedly cross their path or stop. Cyclists on shared cycle and pedestrian paths must ride as far to the right as possible, adjust their speed, and be considerate of pedestrians.
As the pedestrian/jogger, you were clearly the weaker party here compared to an e-bike, or even a normal bike. Even on a shared pedestrian/bike path, you had the priority. Meaning, they can’t expect you to disappear or jump aside. If there’s simply no space, they need to stay behind you until they can safely overtake. The biker attempted a dangerous manouver at an inappropriate spot and injured themselves. Tough titties for them.
I think you’re legally in the right and shouldn’t be too afraid of anything, _however_, you must state your case at the very least. As others have advised, as a student, you probably have access to professional help to do so, if you don’t feel like you can craft an appropriate response yourself.
r/legaladvicegerman might be a better sub for this
30 km would be quite fast for an bycicle. And he would have been in Need of quite a struggle ad in germany ebikes aren’t allowed to go over 25 km/h or they need an insurance and Plate. So the speed would have been all muscle work.
Beside that I recommend:
Get an Haftpflichtversicherung. You may Never Need them but they are rather cheap for they protect you from costs that you may easily go bancrupt from.
It’s the only insurance I’d say everyone should take. They can take the payment cost for some fine and lots of things you may do wrong or cause by negligence. Thats why they think you may have one and they can try to get Money there. Not that they will pay just by the lawyers statement.
Why do you claim you know the reason he pushed you over?
r/legaladvicegerman
Other than that, if it went the way you described, holy shit what an asshole but not at all aurprising
Lawyer up for sure. It sounds very unlikely that he was allowed to overtake you at all.
You don’t need a lawyer at this point.
Call the police and tell them about the letter. Ask them if the report declares you are the Unfallverursacher. If not, send a polite letter to the old man’s lawyer and explain that the police report states that the accident was his clients own fault and that you have several witnesses to attest for you. Case closed.
You don’t need a lawyer at this point.
Call the police and tell them about the letter. Ask them if the report declares you are the Unfallverursacher. If not, send a polite letter to the old man’s lawyer and explain that the police report states that the accident was his clients own fault and that you have several witnesses to attest for you. Case closed
100% lawyer asap. Likely unsubstantiated claim on their end, but this will not go away and in civil law there’s some advantage on the side that takes the initiative.
In this case he had no priority (Vorfahrt) on a shared way with no bikelane. If he just ran into you he has no chance of any claims in court. His attempt to push you seems like the reason for his accident. His statement stands against yours and your colleagues (Aussage gegen Aussage) which leaves you as not guilty because of Assumption of Innocence (Unschuldsvermutung).
If you have a Haftpflicht contact them about Rechtsberatung or ask your University.
Don’t worry
Dont be afraid. Lawyers are just doing their job and its pretty common that they made up things and interpret it in a weird way that you can often see as an amateur that they are totally wrong. Their client wants them to do something and thats why they made up this unlogical things cause they hope you dont get it. From experience, one letter from another lawyer (if you are experienced you can even do it on your own after a few times) is enough and they shut up.
They want to write to your insurance, blame you for everything and make them pay (which your insurance could do theoretically even against your will).
I am assuming you do not have a liabilty insurance – if you do the most important thing right now would be to inform them and send them a full report, otherwise you will lose coverage (might already be to late).
The letter itself is much less threatening than you think. The biker thinks you are at fault and wants to sue you, he has already asked a lawyer (which he has to pay for, obviously), so he might sue you. There is nothing you can do about that.
But right now, they are not doing that, and it is not even overly likely they will, because 1) it would cost them, 2) they would likely lose due to legal grounds (you are not at fault in your side of the story, but he might say something different, because otherwise he had no case), 3) they will have difficulties proving anything, as they have no witnesses other than your friends (I assume), 4) even if they win they do not know if you have any money, because in Germany you only have to pay if there is left enough for you and 5) you might just leave to your home country one day and getting any money they won will be a nightmare and likely not worth the effort then.
So I assume it is a bluff (it might not be!) and they just try to ask your insurance for money (and find out if you have an insurance, because then they would get their money if they won and suing you might make sense) You have not legal obligation to tell them anything right now, after all it is their problem to sue you and you can tell the court directly then. You can answer something like: “ich danke Ihnen für Ihr Schreiben. Nach Prüfung der Sachlage stehen Ihrem Mandanten unter keinem denkbaren Gesichtspunkt Ansprüche gegen mich zu. Ich bitte Sie daher, von weiteren vorgerichtlichen Anfragen Abstand zu nehmen” – which is legal German for “either sue me or leave me alone”.
If they are indeed suing you, you need a lawyer (not technically, as there is no legal requirement at the “Amtsgericht”, which this probably will go, but is highly advisable).
All this assumes the story actually happened like you are telling it here. Otherwise you might want to offer some money as a pre court settlement (less costs and you can argue you do not have much money). Before you decide, take a look in the police file (you have a legal right to do so), because there you will find what the police thinks what happened and who is at fault (its who is mentioned first “UB01”) and the most likely outcome is that the court will side with this (not because it is the police, but it is the closest thing to an indenpendent assessment you have before the courts decide). Also, the file will be presented to the civil court by the claimant, so better know whats in it beforehand.
Well, if you had insurance that would make things much easier. You could just tell the insurance information and the insurance would probably refuse to pay and they would have to argue with them.
It sounds like there are no further investigations by the police. If you actually caused the accident, police would have to pursue that, and either fine you or file for criminal charges to be brought. If there is nothing like that, that is already good.
You should not be obligated to reply to this letter, but they could of course then proceed to take legal action against you. So you could reply that you are at no fault (without going into any detail) and that their client caused his accident by his own actions. If you can get a lawyer through university or something, that of course helps in avoiding any mistakes. But you do not need a lawyer for now, and if you get one and they then do not take it to court, you will have to pay for it yourself. In the end, you can just object to everything without going into detail, until they take it to court and then you can get a lawyer, that they have to pay for when they lose.
You should check with police, whether the case is closed, if the accident was only a few days ago. If there are criminal proceedings or a fine you will be informed of course, but this will take a few days. But all the information the lawyer has now should be the police report on the accident. And the only risk I see is that someone said something that can be misinterpreted. If you get a lawyer, they should also be able to get access to the report. I’m not sure if you can do that on your own.
Apart from all the good advice above, you should get liability insurance like, yesterday. It’s one of the top insurances anyone living here needs. If you haven’t already, you better do it now.
This does not look like writing from police.
This letter is from the old man’s lawyer. (They are talking about their client “unser Mandant”)
It has nothing to do with the police etc.
He is obviously willing to make this about damages. Be is going the “civil law” route.
You should contact some legal counsel. Ignore this letter until then. It’s private, not official you are not obligated to answer to this right away but you shouldn’t ignore either.
Likely Grandpa wants to squeeze some money out of this and claims you are liable. So his private lawyer is pushing you.
Nothing should happen in the end as you seemingly didn’t do anything wrong. But sadly he can do this and just ‘claim’ you did.
Who do you bank with if it is N26 and you have a paid subscription they include liability insurance as part of the benefits which will then cover you for assistance. When I first moved to Germany personal liability insurance was the first thing I was told to buy just in case something happened.
no lawyer but I would tend to believe that the action for an overtake is always in the responsibility of the one trying to overtake another one. therefore this feels most likely to be a “selbstverschuldung” and he is trying to get some cash of you due to possible damages to his ebike and hip – old people and hips don’t go that well together.
make sure to get a lawyer
What does the person riding the bike stand to gain here that they have lost? Their medical bills are covered by their own insurance. What is the point of asking for liability money? Do people not have better things to do in their life?
Wait, he tried to assault you and toppled while doing so?
Do you have access to a legal counsel in the university, because I would totally go to the police and file a report against him
Keine Beweise aufgeführt: Antrag abgelehnt!👎
Nein jetzt mal ehrlich was ist das für ein Schwachsinn😂
How do they want to proof that you did anything when it was a group of people?
Because nobody else asked this yet: how did they even get your name and address? Did you make any kind of statement to police or the assumed ‘victim’?
Also, like others said: you don’t have to ‘lawyer up’ yet. There’s no way you’ll be charged if ‘the group’ got in this guy’s way. Seems like there’ll be far more witnesses on your side. Don’t play into their hands, don’t collaborate with their demands. Your still ways away from actually being sued.
As someone who has worked at a few law firms i can tell you, in my personal opinion, this letter does not look official or like it came from a lawyer. Most likely the guy just wrote it himself and hoped you would get scared. Regardless, do think you should get some real legal advice somewhere though.
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