When I was young and when I was learning about the history of Poland, I always looked at Polish Jews as Poles, only those who simply profess the Mosaic faith. Then I started reading about the uprisings, the attitudes of political parties towards Jews and the number of people of Jewish origin who took part in the November and January uprisings… and I simply cannot resist the impression that most Jews were simply indifferent to the country they lived in. When I raised this topic among Jews, I was scolded and called an anti-Semite, whole speeches began about anti-Semitism, pogroms, that Poles were always anti-Semites and it went on and on, and they told me that questioning the loyalty of Jews to the state was an element of Nazi propaganda. Well, I understand everything, but the problem is that when I read articles about the participation of Jews in the January Uprising, for example… it only strengthened my feeling. So I have a question, am I missing something, am I not taking into account some historical and cultural context? Or am I wrong?
I have the impression that this is a very delicate topic, I will say right away that I am not claiming that "Jews are behind the destruction of Poland" as nationalists like Dmowski and his Endecja used to do, but I simply want a discussion and conversation without emotions. I support the thesis in the title on the basis of:
- Low identification of Jews as Poles during the first census https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_Polish_census
- Lack of any Jewish organizations supporting Polish independence during the partitions, with the simultaneous existence of legal and illegal Zionist organizations in the partitioning countries.
- Exceptionally low participation of Jews in national uprisings, with a large number of Jews in the Polish Congress Kingdom (where they constituted about 10% of the population). In the January Uprising, which was probably the most "progressive" and proclaimed the idea of democratizing public life in Poland, the participation of Jews was really remarkably low, some authors say that they made up a maximum of 2,000 insurgents, which for a total of 200,000 insurgents gives a maximum of one percent in relation to the total. And there are even voices that there were only about 200 of them.
https://www.jhi.pl/artykuly/zydzi-naszymi-bracmi-smierc-michala-landego,2981
In addition, in the context of the January Uprising, we often hear about the collaboration of Jews with Russians https://kresy.pl/kresopedia/zydzi-wobec-powstania-styczniowego-na-podlasiu-z-pamietnika-polskiego-szlachcica/#comments but most likely these are individual cases possibly exaggerated, so this cannot be treated as the main reason.
I am asking for a civilized discussion and if I am wrong somewhere, please enlighten me relatively calmly.
Edit:
Of course I know about people like BereK Joselewicz and that there were Jews who fought for Poland during the uprisings, but aren't they more of an exception than a rule? No offence.
by Emergency_Day_2570
31 comments
Technically speaking, I thought Poland wasn’t a country between 1795-1918. People were under Russian, Prussian, or German rule during those years, no? 🤷♂️
A lot of Jews polonised and took up Polish names. A lot of them kept to themselves, just as in all the other places.
IMO we should not generalize.
Like nowadays – there are catholic Poles, who not care about Poland and muslim Poles who are ready to defend Poland.
For Jews it is more like the border between nationality and religion is very slim.
How would you call someone, whos ancestors lived in Poland from late 1500s and pray in synagogue?
Poles or Jews?
Bad people and good people are in every nation and religion.
A few things:
Jews existed in Poland until about 1800 as their own estate within Poland, following their own laws and traditions somewhat apart from the Polish state. This was as a result of history (to be overly simplistic).
Jews did start to participate more after the Napoleonic wars and the new laws introduced. However due to historic antisemitism, Jews still kept separate. This is region specific as to how this played out, some villages were tricultrual whereas others other was more segregation.
My family who were Jewish did participate in the uprisings as was told to me. In 1905 a family member was said to have burnt down the distillery in Lodz, among other actions. Those who were more social leaning and joined the Bund were more active.
But I don’t think they had a patriotic feeling regarding the country of Poland… Was it even a country? It’s a vague term to invoke as prior to partition, national identity wasn’t a thing since nationalism still had to emerge from USA and France, later imported during partition, where the Polish identity became more clear
I’m Polish Jewish, and my family was full of Polish nationalists, right up until the political crisis of ‘68. Including fighting for Poland in every uprising and war since at least the Duchy of Warsaw.
It is quite true. In fairness they weren’t citizens until Poland was independent in 1918 and even after that a large part of Polish society considered them to be a foreign element, despite them living in Poland for a long time, so it makes sense why they were largely indifferent.
I’m curious: What is with your obsession with Jews? This is like the third post I see of yours about this topic.
For much of that time, most Poles didn’t really give a damn about Poland. Peasants, denied agency or even ethnicity until second half of xix century.
is it true you are a russian bot, created just for the sole purpose of disruption and havoc?
Read a bit about the Pale of Settlement. In the 19th century, most Jews in the ‘Polish’ territories were so-called Litvaks — Jews resettled from the Russian Empire. They didn’t know Polish, didn’t want to assimilate, and, on the contrary, they actually halted the assimilation of the ‘native’ Polish Jews. Moreover, they were an excellent ally for the occupying administration. The idea that Jews, as a group, were allies of Poland is completely ahistorical and incorrect.
It’s worth considering that during 2nd world war Jews were in Polish army in similar proportions to polish people. They fought together with us and died together our ancestors.
Have they equally participated in polish independence movement ? Sure no, because at that time Jews were already talking about the need to have their own country. Why die for someone’s country if you can fight for yours ? It’s different though from not giving a damn, as we have seen during 2nd world war.
Its true, thats why they’ve been expelled from over 100 countries lol
But better not talk about the truth too loudly. ‘To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.’
If youre so confused then read the essay from Julian Tuwim about Polish nationalists who told him that he wasn’t a Pole (in it he said that he majority of the Polish society didn’t see him as Polish but just a Jew)
It’s called “we, Polish Jews”
There were a lot of people like him who assimilated into the Polish culture K.K. Baczyński, Stanisław Lem, Lechoń, Jan Brzechwa, and others. Today you might see them as Polish, but back then the society would say they’re Jews and that’s why they saw themselves as such. Very religious Jews were scared of assimilation and losing connection to Judaism. The Jews in germany were often non-religious and secular because that’s what happened when they assimilated into European culture. The highest death rate in the holocaust were religious, Yiddish speaking Jews because Hitler saw them as vermin. Some richer secular Jews were able to escape before ww2.
Well they didn’t care up to like 1945 and still don’t. The bund organization which fought in the Warsaw ghetto uprising was anti Polish and knows for rioting and breaking stuff. Jews always formed closed groups and viewed Poland as a vessel.
Well they didn’t care up to like 1945 and still don’t. The bund organization which fought in the Warsaw ghetto uprising was anti Polish and knows for rioting and breaking stuff. Jews always formed closed groups and viewed Poland as a vessel.
At least in Warsaw, many did. Look up for instance: Massacres in Warsaw in 1861, rabbis Dow Ber Meisels and Izaak Kramsztyk or Michał Landy who was a Jewish boy who was killed while holding a cross.
Jews generally keep to themselves wherever they go they have their own communities and rarely assimilate
We can but speculate about the attitudes of a minority ethnic group towards a state during its 123 years of nonexistence. However, we do have facts about the composition of the Polish armed forces in 1939. Soldiers and officers of the Jewish faith comprised around 10% (100k) of the total 1 million troops. Which, according to the 1931 census, is roughly equivalent to the percentage of citizens who declared Judaism as their faith.
TLDR; They (Polish Jews) might not have cared about Poland in that particular period, but since the events beginning after 1933 in our western neighboring country, the whole nation was on the same page as to what could happen and what needs to be done.
From my grand grandparents tales, they were treating polish citizens like slaves :p
ofc it’s not that everyone was the same
Its important to note that during for the most part of history jews in Europe were labeled as ,,different community” which did include Poland and later PLC:
* Their communities did have separate laws allowing them to operate on their own in many cases
* This did have positives for them in autonomy and negatives in separation from law privilages (there were even full jewish towns [gmina])
* Furthermore this enhances detachment
* Orthodox jewish faith promoted staying fully within a jewish community
* Enhanced by anti-semitism
* Later on there were attempts to push jews towards polonization (for example in Free City of Kraków) by making further separating laws among which was requirement of christian faith
* Overall a lot of views in the past were that jews are jews and not other
Overall there were a lot of jews due to local giving them more freedom when compared to the rest of Europe but when both your main culture and faith is different than majority then attachment becomes fully personal.
Of course – I am not saying it to deny a sacrifice and integration of those who did love Poland as such cases are already mentioned in other comments.
Did Jews not give a damn about Poland or did Poland not give a damn about its Jews?
My Polish Jewish grandma said it was the latter. She wasn’t born until 1921, so I guess that doesn’t answer your specific question.
I think it’s interesting that most Poles refer to Polish Jews as Polish Jews and not Poles. I assume it’s not Jews who insisted on being called this but Poles who decided to other their Jews.
There’s a proverb ‘Jew cries out in pain as he strikes you’, it fits perfectly. As soon as you bring up anything inconvenient to them they play the victim card and accuse you of antisemitism. Jews are like Roma gypsies, they don’t feel any attachment to societies or countries they live in.
A lot of Jews in the East welcomed the Soviet invasion in 1939
You’re getting there
During the Polish-Soviet war, Jewish organizations specifically told their members to either donate supplies or join the army. Here is a translation (by me) of part of Andrzej Chwalba’s book “przegrane zwycięstwo”:
> Similar calls were made by institutions, associations, municipalities, Catholic bishops, as well as Protestants led by Bishop Juliusz Bursche, a few Orthodox priests, and more numerous Jewish communities and associations. Among others, the Jewish Religious Council in Krakow issued a statement emphasizing that when “volunteers rush eagerly to the aid of the endangered Homeland, there cannot and should not be a lack of Jews who diligently and fervently fulfill their civic duties. Let those capable of bearing arms hurry to the front […]. Remember that this concerns our common Homeland.” Not only this community but also others emphasized that we have no other homeland; it is what it is, but it is ours, Polish. They were encouraged to follow in the footsteps of Berek Joselewicz and Rabbi Beer Meisels, following Polish Jews who supported the January Uprising. Zionist deputies urged: “May no one be absent in the defense of the freedom and independence of the Polish State.” Jews called on their co-religionists not to spare blood and property for Poland.
If they didn’t, why they founded, settled here, and helped developing so many cities?
I am just curious how is it possibile that only that one nation has many members in parlament in every/most countries in Europe + in US and when the public discussion about it is starting – then immediately those who asks about it are called as anti-semitic. I have half Polish and half Japanese nephew, I have no problem if people with one parent from different country to be a politician. But people in most of the countries don’t identify themselves more as their second nationality, that one where they don’t live. And Jews can be Polish, German, Russian etc. but they will always be Jews in the first place. I saw such graphic, I would be glad if someone could confirm if this is true words or fake info. 👇🙏 I am not anti-semitic, I have no feeling about Jews, no positive and no negative, but in the Poland I want the Polish goverment.
https://preview.redd.it/4zegqkhq3x5f1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8cb2951761849ccd3ba08ef893fa7972b2dd63e9
Kinda strange assuming it was antisemtism. It could just as well be explained by them seeing themselves as outsiders of the society and therefore didnt identify as closely with poland
Examples of Polish Jews who were deeply assimilated into Polish society were Julian Tuwim and his family, Antoni Słonimski and his family, Kramsztyk family, Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński, his mother Stefania, her brother Adam Zieleńczyk and his wife and daughters. Some of the assimilated Polish Jews were quite important members of Polish high society before the war.
No one gave a damn about a state anywhere in the 1700-1800s Most people were basically slaves for their lord’s in most European countries at the time.
Well maybe they just didn’t feel a part of the country. Would UK Poles die for the King? IDK
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