Not going to pretend I’m that informed but I don’t really understand the controversy here.
The definition was very broad, and it would have included a ban on therapy for children with gender dysphoria, which is just ridiculous. It’s right to take another look.
Conversion therapy is often illegal anyway, especially if it includes assault. Having a separate offence will do little to tackle any remaining problem.
Good to know in general most people are sensible about this thing. There’s a very vocal minority which can make it feel otherwise.
I’d be interested to know how people define conversion therapy when answering the poll
Not relevant to ~~Tories~~ majority of Britons though.
What do the majority of Tory voters think?
And how many socially regressive leftists agree?
You’d have to be a disgusting, subhuman PoS to not want this banned
Most Britons don’t know the first thing about it.
Telling kids they’re born in the wrong bodies and need medical interventions to ‘fix’ their problems is the real conversion therapy.
I think these results are essentially meaningless, given the majority of people in the UK have no in-depth knowledge of the clinical issues around gender issues generally, or of “conversion therapy” in particular.
Why this an issue is severalfold.
One, I notice that the wording of the question is to my mind somewhat ambiguous in one regard
“Do you think ‘Conversion Therapy’, where people seek to change someone’s [sexual orientation / gender identity] should or should not be banned?”
This is very easily read as people motivated to make attempts to involuntarily force a change in someone’s orientation/identity, and could easily bring to mind abhorrent prior practices such as electroshock treatments.
Forcible conversion is already illegal, this ban extends illegality to voluntary therapy as well, including *talking therapy* – where the person wishes to change.
For the case about sexual orientation conversion therapy, it is fairly clear with 20+ years worth of studies that strongly indicate it is both ineffective and harmful, including voluntary talking therapy.
In terms of gender identity, the evidence base is simply not there. Only a handful of studies have been done, with any of clinical merit starting about 5 years ago. These also primarily focus on clinically significant dysphoria in adults. The rapid societal shift from a medicalist approach (requiring diagnosed gender dysphoria prior to gender recognition) to one of accepting self-ID has not been matched in pace by solid research.
Add to this the explosion of self-reported gender issues in children (particularly in young women) which has never been seen before, it is incredibly hasty to be making legal changes with far reaching potential consequences.
We simply don’t know if this increase might include a subset of vulnerable young people encountering identity issues due to a multitude of societal pressures. Of these, perhaps some *may* (and I’m not saying they definitely would) benefit from talking therapy that does not fear being illegal by helping the patient to question if their identity issues mean they are transgender.
Again, almost all research done with people with gender identity issues has focused on those with persistent, clinical, dysphoria which does appear to be deeply fixed and continuing throughout life.
People without clinical dysphoria are increasingly being encouraged to seek hormonal and surgical interventions, with no research to determine if this harmful or beneficial in the long term. Just search Google or Twitter for DIY HRT – there are thousands of people who are making/buying hormones for self-administration where they feel either the approved process is too long, or that they disagree they need dysphoria to transition.
I do think most people in the UK are either supportive of transpeople, or relatively indifferent. We have our problems, but in the greater scheme of things we are a tolerant nation. However, I am also sure that the majority of people are simply not equipped to express our beliefs in a meaningful fashion through such a crude survey.
I really struggle to see who wouldn’t want this banned.
Regarding the law that is coming through would this include someone who feels trans but wants to stay the same gender?
I understand and very much agree conversion therapy being banned for all types of gay scenarios. It’s social pressure where they feel ashamed in this circumstance.
However for the trans point above, maybe someone wouldn’t want to go through surgery and would like to go through therapy instead? I don’t see the same point with gay conversion therapy as I do with trans here. Am I seeing this wrong? I totally agree with forced their parents for instance but if it was the person themselves and it was 100% sure they weren’t forced I can’t see an issue there unless I am missing something.
Not trying to have a bigoted view here, just interested what it would entail.
A survey of a hundred people isn’t most Britons.
🤦♂️
10 comments
Not going to pretend I’m that informed but I don’t really understand the controversy here.
The definition was very broad, and it would have included a ban on therapy for children with gender dysphoria, which is just ridiculous. It’s right to take another look.
Conversion therapy is often illegal anyway, especially if it includes assault. Having a separate offence will do little to tackle any remaining problem.
Good to know in general most people are sensible about this thing. There’s a very vocal minority which can make it feel otherwise.
I’d be interested to know how people define conversion therapy when answering the poll
Not relevant to ~~Tories~~ majority of Britons though.
What do the majority of Tory voters think?
And how many socially regressive leftists agree?
You’d have to be a disgusting, subhuman PoS to not want this banned
Most Britons don’t know the first thing about it.
Telling kids they’re born in the wrong bodies and need medical interventions to ‘fix’ their problems is the real conversion therapy.
I think these results are essentially meaningless, given the majority of people in the UK have no in-depth knowledge of the clinical issues around gender issues generally, or of “conversion therapy” in particular.
Why this an issue is severalfold.
One, I notice that the wording of the question is to my mind somewhat ambiguous in one regard
“Do you think ‘Conversion Therapy’, where people seek to change someone’s [sexual orientation / gender identity] should or should not be banned?”
This is very easily read as people motivated to make attempts to involuntarily force a change in someone’s orientation/identity, and could easily bring to mind abhorrent prior practices such as electroshock treatments.
Forcible conversion is already illegal, this ban extends illegality to voluntary therapy as well, including *talking therapy* – where the person wishes to change.
For the case about sexual orientation conversion therapy, it is fairly clear with 20+ years worth of studies that strongly indicate it is both ineffective and harmful, including voluntary talking therapy.
In terms of gender identity, the evidence base is simply not there. Only a handful of studies have been done, with any of clinical merit starting about 5 years ago. These also primarily focus on clinically significant dysphoria in adults. The rapid societal shift from a medicalist approach (requiring diagnosed gender dysphoria prior to gender recognition) to one of accepting self-ID has not been matched in pace by solid research.
Add to this the explosion of self-reported gender issues in children (particularly in young women) which has never been seen before, it is incredibly hasty to be making legal changes with far reaching potential consequences.
We simply don’t know if this increase might include a subset of vulnerable young people encountering identity issues due to a multitude of societal pressures. Of these, perhaps some *may* (and I’m not saying they definitely would) benefit from talking therapy that does not fear being illegal by helping the patient to question if their identity issues mean they are transgender.
Again, almost all research done with people with gender identity issues has focused on those with persistent, clinical, dysphoria which does appear to be deeply fixed and continuing throughout life.
People without clinical dysphoria are increasingly being encouraged to seek hormonal and surgical interventions, with no research to determine if this harmful or beneficial in the long term. Just search Google or Twitter for DIY HRT – there are thousands of people who are making/buying hormones for self-administration where they feel either the approved process is too long, or that they disagree they need dysphoria to transition.
I do think most people in the UK are either supportive of transpeople, or relatively indifferent. We have our problems, but in the greater scheme of things we are a tolerant nation. However, I am also sure that the majority of people are simply not equipped to express our beliefs in a meaningful fashion through such a crude survey.
I really struggle to see who wouldn’t want this banned.
Regarding the law that is coming through would this include someone who feels trans but wants to stay the same gender?
I understand and very much agree conversion therapy being banned for all types of gay scenarios. It’s social pressure where they feel ashamed in this circumstance.
However for the trans point above, maybe someone wouldn’t want to go through surgery and would like to go through therapy instead? I don’t see the same point with gay conversion therapy as I do with trans here. Am I seeing this wrong? I totally agree with forced their parents for instance but if it was the person themselves and it was 100% sure they weren’t forced I can’t see an issue there unless I am missing something.
Not trying to have a bigoted view here, just interested what it would entail.
A survey of a hundred people isn’t most Britons.
🤦♂️