France, Italy opt out of US-NATO arms deal for Ukraine

https://kyivindependent.com/france-opts-out-of-nato-arms-deal-for-ukraine-politico-reports/amp/

26 comments

  1. Macron declines because he allegedly wants to buy domestically produced weapons instead. Do they have an alternative to Patriots? I thought Macron couldnt get enough defense systems for ukraine

  2. So long as Ukraine gets what they need in whatever form, it’s fine.

  4. I absolutely agree with the sentiment, but if the US is willing to sell say for example 10 Patriot batteries at once surely we should be all over that? 

    That would be a genuine game changer for Ukraine and have an immediate, overnight impact on the conflict. It would take Europe years to be able to have the same impact.

    We need a combination of both. We need to up our own production mainly of ammunition, shells, missiles etc. we need to start producing European tanks, APCs, IFVs, jets, helicopters, air defence, MLRS, artillery etc on masse, absolutely. 

    The problem is we need to set in motion the logistical and supply chain for it first, not just to build the equipment but to setup the factories, procure raw materials, and produce spare parts in sufficient amounts. 

    Then there is the personnel problem. We have to recruit and train people to build the equipment and the supply lines, and train others on how to use them. 

    That’s a lot of background work before the hypothetical European defense industry can even get the equipment to the front line. 

    Realistically it’s a decade to fully mobile and industrialise the defense industry at such a scale internally within Europe. 

    Ukraine does not have a decade. They need equipment now and the US has more than enough of what Ukraine needs. 

    We need a hybrid approach here, a short term, medium term and long term plan for both giving Ukraine what it needs and for the European defence industry to get it’s finger out it’s ass and start producing with some joined up thinking between nations. (Another issue, we don’t need a dozen different types of each equipment, we need to standardise a bit more) 

  5. ok but are they buying those then? Have they put the orders in? If not then it is kind of a weak excuse.

  6. trump talked with rutte and they decided what EU should do without EU being involved in the discussion so obviously this should not happen

    trump and rutte cannot decide what EU does

    France and Italy are not against helping Ukraine with their position

  7. So France and Italy will finally pay for and donate more SAMP-T to Ukraine, right?

    Right?

  8. When the USA demands NATO spending increases, what they really mean is buy American. This is business after all.

  9. Macron doesn’t trust Trump to continue delivering the Patriots over the next few years so he is making sure that the options are still available for Ukraine. Trump is almost certainly going to block delivery again for some reason, putins best friend in the west.

  10. >”Under this scheme, [NATO](https://kyivindependent.com/tag/nato/) will purchase advanced arms from the U.S., including air defense systems, and deliver some of them to Ukraine”

    LOL Yeah I can see why. Give the U.S. money so that Ukraine can get weapons. Might as well pay their own weapon manufactuers to do that.

    EDIT: Ukraine doesn’t give weapons they get.

  11. The nations involved in the deal are also working towards the goal of a military independent Europe. The problem is that Ukraine needs all the help they can get now and not in 5 or 10 years, so a gradual approach that utilises US and European equipment is best. Macron always talks so much, but when action is required smaller European countries are more reliable than France.

  12. Ignoring the fact that the US will change its mind again in 2 weeks – The US is just trying to use the war for weapon sales… while Patriots would be great the truth is they are very expensive and probably not the best solution for what has become a war of attrition (I’m thinking specifically economic attrition).

    Nato would be better to spend the same money sending non-US equipment and using it as a catalyst for the Security and Defense Partnership which does not involve the US and limits the amount of US equipment that can be bought.

  13. Well yes, they produce SAMP/T, of course they wouldn’t want to pay for PATRIOT

  14. This whole thing perfectly demonstrates the danger of the current Trump administration

    Yes Trump is incompetent, but there are really competent people under him pulling his strings

    The obvious solution if your a decent US is you give Ukraine weapons, but Trump doesn’t like that

    But Trump is also with his tariff obsession and NATO craziness hurting US weapon makers

    So someone gave him this win-win proposal

    Force the EU to buy American weapons by blackmailing them because it’s for Ukraine

    If the EU pays it’s a win because American weapons makers get a sale

    If the EU doesn’t pay it’s a win because it allows people to blame the EU for not supporting Ukraine

    And it’s a bonus win if it creates division within the EU over those who want to pay and those who refuse

  15. They can help by supplying their own tech. This is fine.

    In the end, this *is* enriching American weapons contractors. But I do want to see Russia have their asses handed to them more.

  16. It’s good if they can find European alternatives. The dependence on USA needs to end.

  17. It only makes sense to support your own Military companies if your going to give equipment away. You may as well at least help your own companies bottom line. I think France/Italy are making the right decision here.

  18. Iirc france restarted SCALP productions lately again aswell. Seems they want to rather sell from the domestic market. With Patriots coming one way or the other, i do prefere the trend.

  19. As an American I feel this isn’t a bad thing couse they won’t change there mind about giving weapons systems last minute like the fickle trump administration might.

  20. Europe needs to grow there own arms industry. Relying on the US is not an option especially when the US puts terms on where their exported arms can be used & who against. 

  21. Smart, because Trump is working really hard at making Ukraine a grift for him.

    His “Every country must spend 5% on military” is a protection racket.

    What’s the 5% supposed to be spent on? …USA Military equipment what else?

    NYT reports he actually implied to Zelensky “nice country you have there, it would be a shame if anything happened to it.”

  22. I wouldn’t trust the US either. First, the EU gives Ukraine their supply. Then, they buy more from the US. So this leaves the EU at the mercy of Trump if he decides to raise the price, withhold them for other concessions, decides to just not ship replacement weapons, whatever.

  23. I second this. NATO members are free to buy whatever weapons systems they wish to.

    Trump’s demand to buy exclusively US made weaponry and have EU countries pay for them, that’s just US coming down as vultures and trying to profit even more from the war.

    Besides, if EU countries are to increase defense spending to 5% (which is absolute batshit crazy, btw), the only logical approach is to fund and build the industry at home.

  24. Western countries leaving the tent owned by the USA to fund their own tent.

    Raython must be thrilled right now….

  25. This is what a lack of trust and faith in Trump”s America looks like.  

  26. Is this also because Trump is also making NATO pay for it? ( selling them to nato instead of giving) So in a way he is forcing a sale on Nato instead of contributing. (I think US weapon sales are down)

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