I’m curious what’s your stance on rubber bullets. They seem to get used quite regularly, most recently during the protests yesterday. But also hooligans, covidiots, aggressive youths, nazi protests and their counterprotesters, the threshold seems to be extremely low for these less lethal weapons, compared to other countries. Most European countries banned them and those who didn’t ban them only use them in rare exceptions (ignoring France for a second).
In the past, people in Switzerland have lost their eyesight, innocent bystanders have been injured and I really don’t get why the police here uses them so freely. It’s one thing to say “we aim at their legs so it hurts” and [aiming in peoples’ faces](https://vimeo.com/257267232). I think, France is the only Western European/EU+EFTA country that uses this lethal force more liberally than Switzerland, others have used them a lot historically, but stopped for good reasons (like the UK after the Troubles). Granted, the rubber bullets used in Northern Ireland were physically quite different from the Swiss shrapnel bullets, but most countries banned both types.
So I’m asking you, Reddit community, what do you think? Should the different cantonal police forces keep using rubber bullets against every other protest? Should we follow the rest of Europe and either heavily restrict the use of less lethal force or outright ban it? What do you think about alternatives like water cannons that can also cause severe injuries?
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TBH they don’t fire rubber bullets if there’s a calm protest…
I know they can cause harm depending where they hit, but usually the guy on the receiving end didn’t just calmly hold a sign, did he?
I don’t speak german but, did the guy in the video get hit in the face? We have any evidence of it?
Alternatives like water needs a truck and can’t be used anywhere. And TBH I’d rather take a rubber bullet than pressurized water.
Truth is you can’t bring someone out of combat ability without risking to harm him. Except using speech, but that clearly does not seem to work.
Wear ballistic glasses if you have the urge to riot?
First off, are you sure you are not mistaken the soundgun with rubber bullets? The Police uses these guns against protesters alot, but they don’t actually fire a projectile.
I think the police in Switzerland is extremely causious in use any kind of force.
I fine with them using it. If protest get violent and you are part of it, it’s your fault anyway.
Much better than real bullets, but not an ideal solution. I suppose the best answer is to simply not have riots, but that is not a realistic position. Barring that answer, perhaps some future technologies (sound guns, microwave pain inducing rays, etc.) can be found that will disperse a violent mob without actually hurting anyone permanently.
> It’s one thing to say “we aim at their legs so it hurts” and aiming in peoples’ faces.
You’re fear mongering, the guy filming was way too close for comfort for anyone. Even if this wasn’t a difficult situation already.
If you get in a situation where ur hit by rubber bullets there is a good reason for it. Except if u were to be really unlucky bystander. Police in switzerland are highly trained for those types of situations and their response is partly to be thanked for the little amount of rioting/destruction we endured also during corona ex America. So you dont have to be worried.
I have little sympathy for people who complain about rubber bullets in Switzerland for the following reason: Switzerland is a direct democracy where if you collect 100,000 signatures the whole country has to vote about the proposition, and in cantons to change cantonal law it takes far fewer votes. Demonstrations and violent demonstrations are necessary to get political change in countries whose political systems are less responsive to voters. Violent demonstrations are really not necessary in Switzerland, and doing so is extremely rude to the policemen who would rather not be there but have to be there to deal with these bullies. It’s probably the only job in Switzerland where being assaulted is part of the job description.
These violent demonstrators are quite often young males from fairly wealthy families who want some adrenaline. There is no reason that they can’t do judo or swiss wrestling, or, if that’s not enough, volunteer for the French foreign legion. My solution to these violent demonstrators would first of all be prison with them paying the entire cost of their stay, followed by mandatory participation in a combat sport like judo karate or swiss wrestling, until they have had all the aggression they want or need.
And while we are discussing “rubber bullets “, let’s not forget the wonderful rubber bullets uses in Israel against the Palestinians which are steel bullets with a few millimeters of rubber on top so that they can say that the people were shot with “rubber bullets” instead of steel bullets. The steel inside basically does just as much damage as real bullets. I can only laugh at the Swiss leftists who think that the Swiss police is really brutal with its rubber bullets; there are levels of brutality they have not yet even imagined.
My thinking is that more utility leads to a more fluid scale of escalation which can lead to a more adequate response. Wether this is executed in reality is a different question. It is important though to have clear rules of engagements.
You have to be really unlucky to loose your eyesight, any sport eyewear will be enough to protect the eyes. Other than that, rubber bullets can hardly provoke injuries… Even at short distances you barely feel the rubber bullets (if you have clothes on). If a bystander is so close to get a bullet in their eyes, then he is probably not that innocent anyway.
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Rubber bullets are a useful mean of dissuasion: you can’t use tear gas inside buildings and the use of water cannons must be carefully planned (trucks are big, power/tram/train lines need to be shut down beforehand, they don’t work at close range,…). I think the current use of rubber bullets is more than fair, policemen need to have those guns during their service.
To be honest I think you need to have the means to stop illegal protests. Even if they are climate protests and I’m pro climate but you should still obey local laws.
Protesting is a waste of time anyway imo. Use the resources to get signatures for petitions and the other democratic tools we have to implement change.
You think you’re doing good by blocking Autobahns? No, you just piss people off making it less likely that they take you serious.
They may have threatened him, but they didn’t harm him. If they had shot, that would be concerning. But they didn’t. If he had attacked them, shooting would be reasonable. He didn’t attack them and they didn’t shoot. Where’s the problem? You can see that they are responsible with using their force.
I mean… the police only uses them on illegal demonstrations that aren’t peaceful.
Best example would’ve been the yesterday’s illegal demonstration after the legal one in Zurich. It started with attacks to the police and trying to break barricades, which resulted in rubber shots and tear gas.
But it ended without any issue after having filtered out the main troublemakers, in fact the police even tolerated it to the end instead of forcing it to disband early on, which speaks volumes in how much more peaceful everything got. No broken windows, no burning containers, just a simple march.
I think the Swiss police show a remarkable amount of restraint with the morons they have to deal with on everyday basis. I’m totally ok with rubber bullets.
I’m speechless
Here’s a simple solution for you. Don’t show up to violent riots and illegal protests and you’re never going to have to worry about rubber bullets. Besides, I’ve been shot with rubber bullets before. They’re really not that bad. CS gas and pepper spray is much worse.
Still better than France and their Flashballs.
I think it’s great that they use them and should continue to use to do so. Probably getting downvoted into oblivion for that but so be it. In Switzerland everyone has the right to hold a peaceful protest. If you’re going to Riot tho, prepare to pay the price.
As per your statement “during the protests yesterday” – These weren’t protests, these were Riots. If you have the feel you need to destroy other peoples properties, Stores etc. be prepared to either get some rubber bullets, Tear Gas or get hit by a water cannon etc.
100% for it. I never liked how lenient the Swiss police is, it’s pretty much the other extreme from the USA. I’d much prefer a more balanced approach, where regular citizens don’t have to be afraid of the police being trigger-happy, but rioting thugs actually *do* fear the consequences of their actions – both long-term (courts, penalties etc.) and short-term (i.e. immediate results of resisting the law enforcement).
These morons who riot at illegal protests deserve it.
I think the problem with any kind of use of force/violence by the police is that it’s often very hard to prove and legally challenge cases where there was actual misconduct. I don’t think many people would have a problem with rubber bullets (or even live rounds for that matter) if we could be sure that they are only used as a last resort against dangerous/violent criminals.
So the real question to me would be how do we make sure that law enforcement is held accountable without limiting their ability to do their job and stay safe. If there is no reliable way to do that, allegations of misconduct need to be taken very seriously by our government and courts with clear and strict penalties for unjustified police violence.
i got this suggested by reddit and now i know why i hardly visit the family over in switzerland ^^
The question is what is the alternative?
Tasers?
* easily blocked
* slow reload
* target could hit head or get heart issues
Active Denial System?
* fucking painful
* burns your skin
* actual torture
* easily turned into a lethal weapon
Tear Gas?
* cannot target individuals
* turns the city into a fucking hellscape
* prepared rioters can easily defend against it, can be thrown back at police
* apparently has some “minor” [issues](https://www.propublica.org/article/tear-gas-is-way-more-dangerous-than-police-let-on-especially-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic)
Obviously bystanders should not get hit by stray rubber bullets, but if some rioter accidentally gets a blast in the eye I couldn’t care less. It’s the risk you take when you decide to go on a rampage.
I had the opportunity to try it out in the military.
It hurts for like 2 minutes and then you feel nothing it’s really not that bad.
It’s mostly used to get people to fuck off who don’t really want to fight the police.
It’s a tool like anything else, with its use cases. Care should absolutely be taken in their application but I do believe overall it is a good option to include in their toolkits for protecting the public and themselves should a civil gathering turn restless.
I understand your concern of “what does it say about our society” but I offer a counter proposal.
When you remove options from the discussion, you accelerate the transition to what you fear.
Example, if the process was verbal warning, pepper spray, tazer, rubber bullet, lethal force
And you remove rubber bullet as an option, you leave tazer -> lethal force. Which is worse for us as a society.
What you cannot, in good faith, rely upon is never having situations where rubber bullets could have prevented live ammunition being needed to justify removing them.
If a direct thread exist, then let the police use them. The lady in the video in the other hand… she should lose her job. This was fucking stupid from her.
Don‘t want to be shot with a Rubberbullet?
Don‘t walk with the hooligans! Simple as that.
Everybody that stands by this assholes is a supporter. Police don‘t get there and 10 seconds later shoting around. You have time to get the fu.. out of there when the masked idiots arrive.
Living in Geneva I had no idea about yesterday’s events. Can someone do a quick summary of what happened ? Can’t really find any details in the french/english speaking press.
could be worse. in the US they usually use 9mm.
Rubber bullets are very dangerous, and a disgraceful way to infringe on the right to demonstration. I know some people in France, unionists, who were on the receiving end of a few ones, without much of justification for this disproportionate use of force.
Rubber bullets should be banned, or at least very very restricted in their usage. same goes for a couple other weapons used by the police in France and potentially Switzerland.
Its ok.
Give me one non lethal weapon that showed 0 death or severe injury upon usage after a few years of implementation.
When dealing with a mass crowd the best non lethal are bean bags and rubber bullets as gas goes wherever the wind blows and could hit untargeted people.
To those who yell police brutality, they could also use live ammo if they were really brutal.
As someone working in security and who also used to work with Hooligans, I am against them. Not because I am totally opposed to their concept, but because I know multiple cases, where the police didn’t use them according to the way they are meant to. I even talked to cops that are against rubber bullets, because they witnessed colleagues shooting directly at people and on eyeheight, instead of shooting deflective how it seems they are actually trained to.
We have saver ways to handle people, ways with less human error possible. Also Ive experienced many times, how the police is simply letting things slide, because they don’t wanna escalade, because they have a weak spot for the group or because some higher ups had self-interests alligned with those people. I stopped counting how often everybody knew we had to intervene, but we were ordered to keep it down until it was already too late to stop the escalation in a less overblown way.