Ukraine winning unless Putin occupies whole country — Zelensky

7 comments

1. Ukraine’s Zelensky has claimed that Russian President Vladimir Putin wants to occupy the whole of the country, and that Kiev can claim ‘victory’ in the conflict as long as this does not happen.

   Russia has long stressed that it has no intention of occupying Ukraine in full. Putin reiterated this when the conflict escalated in February 2022, and again later that year when Russian troops reached Kiev but then withdrew.

   Since then, Moscow has consistently said any peace settlement requires Ukrainian neutrality, a limit on Ukraine’s military, & recognition of Crimea, Donetsk, Lugansk, Kherson, and Zaporozhye, as Russian.

   Zelensky, however, insisted that Moscow’s ambitions go further. “Putin’s goal is to occupy Ukraine, it is to destroy us… For him that’s victory“, he claimed. “And until he can do it, the victory is on our side… For us to survive is a victory“.

2. That’s right.

   If we count Finland winning the winter war by staying independent and only losing some land, the same standard should be applied to Ukraine.

   The winter war is taught different in different countries, but here in Sweden, at least when I went to school in the late 90s and early 00s, we were taught that Finland won.

3. Can only wish the Ukrainians the best of luck here and they’ll pull through, hopefully with continued Western support.

   At this point, I’m getting tired of continued going nowhere discussions with Putin and his government. They have made very clear what they intend, beyond any empty words.

   I think I am one of those people that wished I had believed the Ukrainians years ago.

4. Great! Now accept Russia’s terms and stop this madness.

   Then you can have a whole month of victory celebrations

5. Oh so he lives in a fantasy land

   Idk how you can say that losing millions to death, injury and fleeing while losing 20% of your country is winning with a straight face. Trying to claw back refugees to send to the meat grinder and encouraging 60+ year olds to enlist is what you do when you’re winning?

6. I don’t know man, I think there’s some important differences between winning and just surviving. 

   I do believe Ukraine will survive this war, but losing 20-25% of your territory (including some of your most important agricultural, industrial, and coastal areas) is an odd definition of victory. Post-war Ukraine is going to be a shadow of its former self, at least for a while. They are in for a long, expensive rebuild, and their demographics may never fully recover from this war. They will also have the threat of renewed war hanging over everything they do for the next 10-15 years as well. Not a pretty picture if you ask me. 

7. Zelenskyy is trying to claim victory by **defining it**.

   This is how silly this war has gotten. All the egos and stuff wrapped up in it but it just comes down to winning or losing.

   This war is not a victory. This war is a crushing defeat.

   Russia will not occupy Ukraine. They never wanted to.

   Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe. You would need **hundreds of billions** of dollars to modernize Ukraine even up to the development standards of Russia!

   Putin may be crazy but **he is not stupid**. He doesn’t want to spend a bunch of money on people who don’t want to be part of Russia.

   And no: Ukraine is not “like Finland”, who understood when to negotiate peace.

   Ukraine has lost:
   1/3 of its GDP
   1/5 of its territory
   1/4 of its population
   Poverty has increased **10 times**
   Reconstruction costs is 8 times their GDP.

   No Ukraine lost this war. Russia has made an Afghanistan at Europe’s doorstep.

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