Approximately 27% of the population of Switzerland is made up of foreign residents whose demographic is heavily weighted towards the highest net-tax-contributor age range (mid-late career).
None of these foreign residents have the right to vote in Switzerland (hence, disenfranchised), which is probably why they are increasingly subject to punitive policies seemingly designed to extract the maximum harvest from their efforts, to give, not to those in need, but to shower the wealthiest generation in the country's history with extra gifts.
I'm talking about the 13th month salary for pensioners. The age-independent health insurance premiums, which has once again increased substantially this year (in some places double digits).
Meanwhile, as in many other countries in Europe, the general sentiment towards foreign workers amongst those who often benefit the most from said immigration is often very negative. "They're taking our jobs. They're pushing up house prices. They're changing things, etc".
On the contrary, you hear little about how "They're funding our welfare system. They're subsidising our healthcare and pensions. They're populating our productive economy. They're saving us from the consequences of population collapse, etc".
Clearly there is a very conscious trade occurring between working foreign residents and retired/economically inactive Swiss nationals which is obviously entirely consensual and in most cases enjoyed (else there would be an exodus of representatives of both counterparties).
But at what point does this apparently highly one-sided, relentless tax harvesting of disenfranchised foreigners become too much? I only see this dynamic "worsening" as the demographics shift further into old age. I don't see electoral changes e.g. enabling of b/c permit hodlers to vote happening any time soon.
by VsfWz
27 comments
Anyone who can’t see how Switzerland benefits hugely from immigration is either biased or plain stupid
6 years ago it was that.
At some point shit will hit the fan. What you are saying here is true. And most people are just not aware of the economics of this country. Or in general.
My opinion as a foreigner:
Permit holders will never get the vote – it’s too conservative here to change that.
The answer you will most likely get from the Swiss is – if you don’t like it, leave.
At the end of the day, even if my taxes went up I’d still be better off financially by staying here than going back to where I came from.
Immigrants are an easy target for blame on a country’s issues – see the USA, UK and Germany.
Disenfranchised yes, but most of them chose so. Most of the German and European Expats could become Swiss, but many don’t want to. I applied as soon as I was legally allowed to.
This is not a new ‘issue’. Every country has this and this has been a topic of debate since historiographically whenever globalization started.
it is clear that Switzerland (as a system) benefits from controlled immigration for the simple reason that if it was otherwise , immigration would have been much more limited. And I am not talking about the recent phase (since 15 years) with the easier permits for EU-citizens but also for the status before, where it was still possible, to obtain a permit.
However if we want to be a bit objective, you have 2 major flaws in your whole arguments.
First of all, about the right to vote. Anyone can apply for citizenship after living here for 10 years (as long as they fulfill some pretty basic requirements). This is not the UAE where you will never ever get citizenship. So after this mark, people are not foreigners.
Secondly, someone could make an argument, that the taxes paid by previous generations, financed the infrastructure which we use today, so at the end it’s a win win for both ‘generations’. The same way that taxes paid today also build infrastructure for future generations.
I often have the feeling that the purpose of posts like yours (“they owe us”) is just to trigger/provoke people instead of generate some fruitful discussion.
Anyway just as a disclaimer, I am not Swiss.
But in Switzerland, you contribute to your own pension from what I know. So you aren’t bankrolled by other people’s taxes unless you work for the government.
I could be wrong or misunderstanding something here though.
I am a foreigner here and while voting would be nice, I understand the idea of working towards it through naturalization. Honestly, much better to have it like that than to risk having issues like in Germany or Swedistan.
Why are you here if you are disenfranchised? There has to be something that is better to make you stay and maybe that thing is like that, because the Swiss don’t let anyone vote without integrating first.
Foreigner here (soon Swiss). It’s the deal. When coming here you know it. You have access to a way better life quality vs 99% of the world.
High paying jobs, strong currency, working public services, security, amazing landscapes, clean country and so on.
No voting rights, not a problem. How many countries are allowing foreigners to vote ?
I globally paid ~100K/y in Taxes. Gladly doing it.
If I am not happy, I can move. Nobody is forcing G/B/C permits to come work in Switzerland.
expat here. CH has low taxes. What do i care if it’s being spent on pensioners? It’s your choice.
Also not all foreigners are bankrolling this country. I live in an area with a lot of what seems to be asylum seekers and their children (I’m not 100% sure though). According to existing statistics published in other refugee-welcoming countries is that they would be taking a lot more than they are giving back.
I’m foreign and I understand their policy.
We are visitors, we have a way to get proper citizenship, we should follow that way.
But what I hear is: “I don’t want to get citizenship, because I have to pay for the military”, which means that he doesn’t want the citizenship because he doesn’t want to be accountable to all the responsibilities that being a citizen entails, but wants the right to vote. Sorry but no. That’s not how it works.
Yes the Swiss people benefits from my taxes, but I benefit from the high income. That’s our agreement. When the time comes that I can become a full fledged citizen then I will think if it is the right move, until then I honor my agreement while the Swiss people honor theirs.
I give an alternative solution to giving free vote to non-nationals: supporting young Swiss generation better, allow them to reach stability in their canton of origin without having to compete with literally half of Europe and beyond for qualified jobs.
Perhaps you we will then face less emigration (yes, Swiss do emigrate for better job conditions) and more young Swiss starting family sooner.
Also, I predict a drastic reduction of workplaces due to AI incoming, which will need our western economies to be re-designed anyways. But that’s a much larger topic.
Can you explain what you mean by “punitive policies” against foreigners? Because the 13th AHV month is paid by everyone, it’s not based on nationality. You’re conjuring up discrimination where there is none. Also, is there a country where foreigners can vote? Afaik, it’s always tied to citizenship. I’ve lived in 4 countries outside Switzerland and was never allowed to vote, nor did I expect to.
Either way, if you are commited to staying here, just go through the process of becoming a citizen. Then you can vote.
Also, just because you’re between 30 and 40 doesn’t mean you’re a top taxpayer. Occupation, education etc. play a role. Reducing it to age is a massive simplification. And while immigrants are beneficial to the Swiss economy as a whole, those immigrants also benefit. It’s a good deal for both.
Go home and vote as much as you want.
You just come to Switzerland, get the “big” salary, and now complain about random stuff.
Should Swiss pensioners send you a letter every year? And say how good you are, and how lucky they are?
I am foreigner
You knew that before coming here, so don’t complain about it. We benefit from qualified immigration (residence of other European Countries), which we, the Swiss, tend to have in abundance. You didn’t come here for goodwill. You came to my country because of the economic benefits it gives you. If you want to have a say, get your citizenship, embrace Swiss culture, and vote, or fuck off. Nobody forces you to live here. Thousands of people would love to be in your privileged situation.
As a foreigner: not a smart take.
-if you dont like it, leave
– asking you to integrate is a very valide request. It is absolutely possible and if successful, the locals respect you very much
– you get the right to live here. Thats a better life than we will have than most of the upperclass people from the countries we come from. Thats more than you can and one should ask for
– you dont finance “their” system, you finance where you live and profit from day to day. So you finance your own wellbeing
As a foreigner, I see Switzerland as a very transactional society.
So I’ve adopted that mindset. We use each other, and as long as I see that deal as beneficial, I’m going to stick around.
I don’t think it is wrong that the Swiss ‘exploit’ immigrants who willingly come and stay here. The rules are clear in Switzerland, it is one of the many things I like. That who comes here knows what you are saying I’m advance. I am probably one of those ‘qualified immigrants’ who pays and does not vote, but in return I have a very high standard of living. Best regards.
I’d like you to tell me what/how many countries let foreigners vote in national elections? Because it sure is very far from a majority. And 10 years of living in Switzerland + a bare minimum of integration and language competencies is really not too much to ask (40k a year naturalization goes to show you that it far from impossible). And immigrants, according to you, don’t get old and will never draw any money from the public pension system? And some immigrant demographics definitely don’t have a higher unemployment rate than Swiss citizens and are less dependant on welfare than Swiss citizens. And most of all, they don’t come here out of their own free will and definitely would not have been able to understand what they were getting themselves into before coming here. And by the way, you don’t have to like everything about Switzerland, we are by far not perfect, but you want people to be able to vote on our future that might leave in 1-2 years?
I mean, voting is pretty much the only thing that sets the Swiss apart from long-term residents anymore and, at least to me, is the defining factor of being a national of any democracy. If you give the vote to all long-term residents then there is no reason for them to get citizenship. This is already the case for EU nationals who often happily spend 20-30 years here but feel no reason to get citizenship. Additionally, swiss men have an obligation to serve so now you’re just actively disadvantaged by becoming swiss if you’re a man 18-35. Again, people already actively put off getting citizenship specifically to avoid the tax/service. The bar is also, generally, not that high to get citizenship here. For language for example, we require only B1 level of fluency in a local language. Hungary requires C1 in Hungarian for example.
I also don’t believe these people are disenfranchised. I believe disenfranchising requires depriving someone of the right to vote. You can’t deprive someone of a right they never had.
With the exception of some special agreements between the UK and some commonwealth nations, I don’t know any country that allows a blanket right to vote for non-citizens.
I wasn’t for the 13th AHV, I’m a young guy so I know I’m paying for it and I know the issue is that young people just don’t vote whole old people do and in the end they’re who benefit. But that’s the system here, I resent the idiots that are too lazy to vote, not the system that let me vote myself. I’m also not sympathetic to long-term foreign residents who never felt the need to naturalise until one of the votes actually affected them. Sure, 40% of the 30-40 age group are foreigners but that means 60% are swiss and are also bankrolling the AHV reform.
I hate to be the one saying it, but really, if it’s so bad here then nothing is stopping anyone from leaving. If you do like it here on the whole but want to contribute to change, get naturalised and vote with us!
We probably wont see much attention paid until foreigners stop coming/start moving away because it’s “so bad” here.
How is it any different for young working Swiss people? Everyone young is going to be punished under the boomer thumb.
I pay over 70k in taxes annually as a foreign and I’m gladly doing this.
I’m not needing voting rights because, let’s be honest, I would not know what to do with it anyway short term. I would have to live here at least 20-25 years to just scratch the surface of the Swiss dynamics,politics and needs.
Even in the day I will get the passport/citizenship I will not treat the voting right lightly.
Even after 10 years you can’t pretend that u fully understand the political system, the needs of people that have been living here for centuries or their political views.
You immigrate knowing that you do so for a better life. But if someone gives you a finger you shouldn’t take his whole hand.
What’s the point of this graph? Theoretically 100% of the foreigners could be unemployed and relying on social service, the graph would look the same. Just because on average the highest income earned is around 30-50 does not really mean much for your argument here. Comparing apples with pears.
I find it honestly weird you would expect ro be able to vote as a non citizen. If you wanna vote, get the citizenship. I as well as many others have done that exact same thing. As for not being greatful, well they are called the selfish generation for a reason. It ultimately boils down to the overall fact that they bwlieve they are OWED all these benefits. If you’re foreign, you’re blamed for being foreign. If you’re a studentbwanting to improve your chances for a livable wage, you’re blamed for not working. If you work and ask for more money due to higher living costs, you’re blamed for wanting too much. That’s juat how the majority of that generation is. It’s all “me, me, me” and 0 gratitude. Not to mention 0 acceptance that life was handed to them at an easy mode, whilst many young people can’t find jobs due to an economy they messed up essentially.
rich immigrants come here, have a better living standard, pay less taxes than in their home country. but it’s still not enough. they’re so entitled
I’m mostly in Phase with the comments.
I just want to add some statistics about immigration in Switzerland.i unfortunately cannot find back the article on admin.ch. the statistics were showing that the vast majority of immigration are happening in two canton of Switzerland. Zurich and Vaud who host like 90% of the immigration together.
That might have an effect of the general opinion of people living there.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, as a foreigner who has made this his home…loves this country with a passion and has every intention to become a citizen and live here until my dying days..
If you don’t like it…leave.
You should take pride in contributing to wider society, even if it affects your “bottom line” personally. Whatever money I contribute towards Swiss society through my taxes or otherwise, I’m happy to pay for the good of other Swiss people.
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