AILSA CHANG, HOST:

OK, the Trump administration says that, quote, “substantial” layoffs of federal workers have begun, appearing to follow through on its threats to cut down the size of the government during the shutdown. Now, it’s not clear yet how many agencies are affected or how many employees are receiving these reduction-in-force – or RIF – memos. NPR’s Stephen Fowler has been covering the restructuring of the federal government and joins us now to explain what we do know. Hi, Stephen.

STEPHEN FOWLER, BYLINE: Hey there.

CHANG: Hey. OK, so what do we know?

FOWLER: Not a lot yet, Ailsa. It’s important to note that the news came from the Office of Management and Budget Director Russell Vought posting on X simply, the RIFs have begun. Now, an OMB spokesperson not authorized to speak publicly told NPR that the process was starting and that it would be, quote, “substantial,” but we don’t really know what that means. Now, NPR’s seen screenshots of notifications at places like the Environmental Protection Agency and the Housing and Urban Development saying there will be RIFs. Some unions representing employees at agencies like the Education Department say they’ve also been told layoffs are coming, but that’s not the same as official notices sent to employees. One agency so far did confirm those RIF notices did go out.

CHANG: Oh, wait. Which agency?

FOWLER: NPR’s Selena Simmons-Duffin heard from the Department of Health and Human Services. An HHS spokesman said employees that are considered nonessential across multiple divisions received them, though it doesn’t say how many or when they take effect. Their statement also says the department was bloated and the cuts are the, quote, “consequence of the Democrat-led government shutdown.”

Now, I spoke with Jessica Riedl, a government spending expert at the center-right Manhattan Institute earlier this week about the threat of RIFs and how the White House has blamed proposed drastic cuts on the government shutdown. She said this.

JESSICA RIEDL: There is no statute requiring them to lay off a substantial share of federal employees during a temporary government shutdown. That statute doesn’t exist, and such practice has not occurred during previous shutdowns.

FOWLER: So what she’s saying is that you don’t need to make permanent changes based on a temporary situation.

CHANG: OK. Well, the thing is some government employees are working without pay right now. Others are furloughed. So do we have any sense of how all that might be affecting these layoff decisions?

FOWLER: There are three main groups of federal employees right now – those who are working without pay, those who are working with pay because their funding isn’t dependent on Congress passing a bill and those that are furloughed.

CHANG: OK (ph).

FOWLER: That last group of people are likely the ones being targeted because agencies have deemed them to be nonessential during a shutdown. The Office of Management of Budget and its director, Russell Vought, argued before the shutdown that any nonessential programs, employees, activities should be eliminated. Now, a group of federal employee unions filed a lawsuit also before the shutdown that says the mere threat of firings and trying to carry them out during a shutdown is illegal. That case is ongoing, and there’s a hearing next week.

CHANG: Help me understand something, Stephen. The Trump administration says that federal agencies need to be cut down, but it’s also blaming the shutdown for why these agencies are shrinking. Can you reconcile that for me?

FOWLER: It’s mixed messaging from the White House. I mean, the administration officials say that Democrats caused the government shutdown. The government shutdown means they have to make hard choices about spending and staffing, and the White House feels forced to make those tough decisions. At the same time though, this is an extension of the Department of Government Efficiency push to slash the federal government’s size and scope that’s been underway since January. That includes firing workers. I’ll also note that some of these agencies are already smaller after the DOGE cuts and buyouts and retirements. But before the shutdown, NPR reported some of them were actually hiring people back because they couldn’t carry out basic tasks or fulfill Trump’s policy priorities.

CHANG: That is NPR’s Stephen Fowler. Thank you, Stephen.

FOWLER: Thank you.

(SOUNDBITE OF ROSS HAMMOND’S “EASY DOES IT BLUES (FEAT CLIFFORD CHLIDERS, BENWAR SHEPARD & DEVON EDMOND)”)

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