Former NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg: “When Turkey downed a Russian jet, France and Italy didn’t support Turkey, and Germany was cautious. Although we publicly backed Turkey, there was significant internal disagreement.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/corn-canapes-and-shouting-matches-how-erdogan-and-stoltenbergs-bromance-saved-nato
by NovaTR6
32 comments
The former secretary-general’s first major test involving Turkey came in November 2015, when the Turkish military shot down a Russian Su-24 attack aircraft for repeatedly violating Turkish airspace.
While Stoltenberg issued a statement supporting Turkey’s territorial integrity and saying that Nato stood with Ankara, he reveals that not all Nato countries agreed with him.
“But the truth is that there was deep disagreement within the alliance,” he writes.
“Turkey received support from the Eastern European countries in its demand that Nato should unconditionally support the Turkish actions, and they believed that the border violation should be followed up with the deployment of more air defenses, more aircraft and more batteries of Patriot missiles along the border with Syria.”
But the Norwegian notes that France and Italy were opposed to explicitly supporting Turkey.
“The Germans were not against support, but at the same time wanted to be more nuanced. They argued that it was one thing to condemn the border violation, quite another to justify a shooting down because of a violation that lasted 17 seconds.”
In response, Russia deployed S-400 air defence systems to Syria and sent its flagship, Moskva, to the Syrian coast.
It shows how public unity can sometimes differ from internal opinions.
So, privately, they had concerns, publicly they backed their NATO partner.
This seems reasonable to me.
>“The [Germans](https://www.middleeasteye.net/countries/germany) were not against support, but at the same time wanted to be more nuanced. They argued that it was one thing to condemn the border violation, quite another to justify a shooting down because of a violation that lasted 17 seconds.”
Imo, it shouldn’t matter if it’s 17 seconds, 1 second, or a few minutes – if a Russian jet is violating NATO airspace we should shoot it down.
Just to be clear, most countries quite literally pulled their support from Turkey by pulling their Patriot systems, which were there because missiles/rockets were flying during Syrian civil war and Assad was threatening them.
That is not publicly backing a NATO member, that is virtually serving them up on a platter to Russia. And I remember quite well all the conversations about how reckless Turkey was and how they would be considered the aggressor and wouldn’t be able to invoke Article 5 if Russia attacked Turkey in response.
Lionization of what happened after Russia invaded Ukraine is one of the biggest hypocrisies of this sub and others. What happened to Turkey then is the perfect example why so many of us in Europe want a proper alternative to NATO, and why so many people in Baltics can’t just trust NATO completely.
The title is downplaying several key information about what happened.
Turkey didn’t just shot down a plane because it entered it’s airspace. They did it because they were backing Syrian rebels the Russian plane were bombarding. But the people that Turkey was backing were not really people who were liked by western powers and they also were fighting Kurds, who were themselves backed up by a lot of western powers. The reserve about supporting Turkey weren’t just about shooting down a russian plane. They were also about their involvement in the Syrian crysis and who they chose to support. And same as today, about the growing autocratic nature of Erdogan power.
Well, turkey is also, like russia, an aggressive country that invades regions thay are none of their business, and also has a history of genocides
The pilots were later thrown under the bus by Erdogan, accused of being part of the Gülen conspiracy, and thrown in jail.
And then Turkey began buying Russian air defense systems, the Buk-S400
This is being sold as “being strict with Russia,” But I think it was an accident. Incompetence on the part of the Turkish pilots or their immediate commanders. It should have been prevented by better training /clearer rules of engagement. In the immediate aftermath, ppl then pretended it was intentional, as that had more political advantages than admitting they were klutses. Then the later aftermath just shows the cynicism of the Turkish regime. Zero moral compass.
You think Putin can’t bribe high ranking people in NATO to justify why they don’t think it is necessary to shot down Russian planes?
> But Erdogan was also full of surprises in meetings. He suddenly asked whether Stoltenberg liked corn, since it was corn season. The Norwegian said he did.
> “A moment later, they brought in a huge platter of golden corncobs, which we grabbed with our bare hands. There were maybe eight to ten of us in the room, and everyone was munching away. Lovely roasted chestnuts also came,” Stoltenberg writes.
> “’The protocol department hates this,’ Erdogan said, grabbing another flask. ‘Do you know the difference between the Taliban and the protocol department?’ he asked, looking at me expectantly, as corn kernels and salt sprinkled onto the floor.
> I shook my head. Erdogan smiled. ‘It is possible to negotiate with the Taliban.’”
🤣
I was on my way to Germany for a Erasmus+ project when this happened. The hotel that we were supposed to stay in Germany cancelled our reservation right after the event. Did not return to our calls or emails so we had to improvise. I remember very well how hostile they were against us it’s as if Turkey started ww3
Buncha pussies
European countries are untrustworthy crap and Turkey is still in NATO because it protects Turkey from other NATO countries, nothing more.
This is common knowledge for Turkish community for decades now..
Within a day, the vast majority of NATO—especially Western Europeans—said they weren’t involved.
Although there is one thing. If Russia were to go to war with Europe today, we wouldn’t care either. Erdoğan wouldn’t say we’re not involved; he would negotiate but no one could draft me into such a war. I would just go and settle in Azerbaijan, and that would be that.
“But what if Putin nukes Turkey” said absolutely noone
Cause nato is full of russian sympathizers who are scared of their own shadow.
Its just weak leadership.
NATO’s leaders should have just agreed on and made the same statement all at once: “FAFO.”
NATO would never defend turkey. Israel wouldn’t let that happen. In fact they will attack turkey within the next 10 years
The whole world knows NATO is a pussy when it comes to taking real action against real enemies.
NATO being a paper tiger allowed Russia to do whatever the fuck it wants and go unpunished. I would bet money on if Russia actually started a full scale invasion on an NATO member country tomorrow, it would take at least two months for NATO to actually decide on what to do on paper.
I don’t think people understand just how pro-putin/pro-russia some western countries are. I am Italian and the majority of the population here is literally pro-Putin or at the very least against sending any weapon to Ukraine.
One more proof EU is a bunch of wussies.
Was this when Germany was still under Merkel rule or any of the henchmen who were fistdeep in Gazprom because that’s not really germany talking but russian roebels….
Erdogan eats corn the long way
So this incident was the catalyst of Ukrainian invasion! They betrayed before nothing happened and Russia saw how fake and chicken they were. What a shame!
Turkey showed they don’t need NATO at the end, and Putin backed down
While I don´t particularly like Erdogan, it´s interesting to see how he thinks. His logic makes sense, even if you disagree with the man´s (lack of) morality.
I realise this isn’t really the topic of the post but I felt like sharing it anyway. Me and some friends were at an event where Stoltenberg was the speaker in London a few days ago. We all found it really good and interesting the way he talked about his time leading NATO. He seems to be very open and honest about most everything that happened from Trump to Putin, Syria, Ukraine etc. He seemed (to me at least) very down to earth and measured and it made me feel glad again that he led NATO throughout his tenure.
Plus I managed to get a signed copy of his book so I am positively stoked abt that too.
I also seem to remember Turkey getting condemned by their European “allies” for doing so in the first place. With calls for Turkey to be expelled from NATO. Here’s an example of the response given by a supposed “ally” German Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel called Turkish actions unpredictable. “This incident shows for the first time that we are to dealing with an actor who is unpredictable according to statements from various parts of the region – that is not Russia, that is Turkey,” Gabriel said, as cited by DPA news agency. He added that Turkey was playing “a complicated role” in the Syrian conflict.
I’ve always found this sub and many others to have venomous hatred towards Turkey. I’m willing to bet if Turkey bent over backwards, became secular to the hilt and conceded every demand to the most minute-detail, it would never be enough. There will always be an excuse to “other” Turkey.
As much as I dont like Turkey for what they do to kurdish people. Theyre the only country in NATO brave enough to actually do something to Russia
I think Turkey showed that the best approach to Russia is to hit back, hard, and immediately.
Meanwhile Turkey invaders daily Greek airspace but I don’t remember EU backing Greece…
stop making turkey a hero. Turkay apaogized so many times to russia after that incident, blamed people who downed it and said it was a trap to turkey and comsentated everything to russia.
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