Does anyone here live in Germany? I feel like a lot of Irish people live in Berlin these days. One major point of conflict I have found is that Irish people pretty much unanimously support Palestine whereas Germans are quite fanatically pro-Israel. On Sunday there was some unrest in Berlin because the police arrested a lot of people who were showing their support for the Palestinians. It goes beyond the police, or the state, and actually the German leftists are also very fanatic about Israel. Does anyone have any experience with this? It can be quite isolating as an Irish person here, because I feel like I have a normal opinion on the matter (it’s bad) and I’m surrounded by people who really despise Palestinians.

I think the reason, as far as I can tell (although this is just my opinion), is that they consider Israel to be a sort of “happily ever after” for Jewish people who survived the Holocaust. This allows Germans to maybe feel less guilty about their grandparents. So when the Palestinians show up and say hey, this isn’t a great situation, the Germans can’t handle it and try to shut them down as much as possible.

What are people’s thoughts on this? I’d like to see some Irish civic action within Germany to fight against this. I think something like that could be effective, or at least therapeutic.

I am posting this here because they won’t let me post about the topic on the Germany subreddit as it makes them feel bad. There’s a Human Rights Watch piece about some of the events at the weekend [here](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/05/20/berlin-bans-nakba-day-demonstrations) and another good article just came out [today](https://www.972mag.com/berlin-palestinians-nakba-protest-police/).

For those interested, here are another couple of interesting pieces on the topic:

[https://mondoweiss.net/2021/06/stigmatized-but-not-silenced-growing-up-palestinian-in-germany/](https://mondoweiss.net/2021/06/stigmatized-but-not-silenced-growing-up-palestinian-in-germany/)

[https://www.972mag.com/jid-palestine-leipzig-germany/](https://www.972mag.com/jid-palestine-leipzig-germany/)

[https://jewishcurrents.org/when-antifa-is-the-enemy](https://jewishcurrents.org/when-antifa-is-the-enemy)

[https://jewishcurrents.org/deutsche-welle-firings-set-chilling-precedent-for-free-speech-in-germany](https://jewishcurrents.org/deutsche-welle-firings-set-chilling-precedent-for-free-speech-in-germany)

[https://www.972mag.com/amnesty-germany-apartheid-report/](https://www.972mag.com/amnesty-germany-apartheid-report/)

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EDIT: Thought I’d get a more Bernadette Devlin-esque response here to be honest. I’m a little sad about the number of people saying “Don’t get involved in German society”. I think maybe a lot of you see Germany more as a finished product holiday destination rather than a living, breathing society. It’s important to remember that this is a vibrant, multicultural society with many different political movements. It’s not so different from the US or England. The Irish organise a lot in England and America, and we already have plenty of cultural initiatives in Germany. We are a minority group within Germany and our political belief in a free Palestine is considered officially antisemitic by the German government. This is wrong.

24 comments

  1. Think Germans dont like to be seen as anti-israel(which is normally construed as being anti-semite, completely untrue in my opinion). Thats why they feel the need to show their support for the Zionist state.
    Anyone with an iota of knowledge about the history of the region knows Palestinians are in the right.

  2. I’d suggest not discussing the topic (or any ‘political’ topic with them as it could cause problems for you.

  4. That’s very interesting. I had no idea the Germans were pro Israel.

    As an aside: does it ever worry you that your own views are pretty predictable by just looking at your demographic? It bothers me a great deal.

  5. There is definitely a great deal of Vergangenheitsbewältigung (struggle to overcome the past) in Germany. You can understand they are very careful to criticise Israel and indeed as you say, they do sometimes blindly support the Israeli state. No matter how you look at it, Israel is very quick to label critics of the state’s actions as anti-semetic, and Germany is the last country that wants to be labelled that. Of course, that does not excuse their ignorance to the geopolitical and humanitarian issues there but it does provide some insight.

  6. > What are people’s thoughts on this? I’d like to see some Irish civic action within Germany to fight against this. I think something like that could be effective, or at least therapeutic.

    Maybe stop trying to stir shit when you’re a guest in somebody else’s country. I wouldn’t look too kindly on a group of Germans trying to change how we think about things here.

  7. I am not irish. But I live here and consider it home. I was positively surprised to see the support Irish people have for the Palestinian cause. Probably the only european country that openly supports Palestine. I am so proud of this for some reason.

  8. You want ‘Irish civic action within Germany’ because you don’t like that some Germans have different opinions than yours? Get a grip and let people have opinions in their own country

  9. You want us here in Ireland to take action against Germany, where you’re currently residing, for something that has nothing to do with us???

  10. This may not be something that’s is seen in Berlin but I have family who live there. It’s always been around Mannheim I forget the small towns name. Anyway found the Germans very prejudice to Turkish and those of that ilk. Could have been full blown racist but I barely had any German back then. My cousin had to translate a lot but I mean you know when someone has evil intent or change when they see someone they hate.

  11. Sounds to me you have a very limited understanding of the political discourse in Germany about Israel and Palestine.
    Also not clear why you expect Irish expats to get involved in this how?

  12. Would I be wrong to say that most of Germany’s decisions are made by self flagellation as they can never be seen to go against the Jewish people ever again no matter what they are doing is also wrong.

    One thing I do know is Germans are terrified of the Nazi label, as such Germany are trying to avoid a new accusation of anti Semitism again.

    Just a theory.

  13. Don’t live here but walked by a row of restaurants in Koln last week. I was so surprised people were eating in all the Israeli restaurants. Do they not know?

  15. I don’t know mate. I obviously support Palestinians, but if the Germans have different opinions then that’s their right. We’re all entitled to believe what we believe.

    So just accept it. Don’t feel that it’s your responsibility to change people’s minds, and don’t let it affect your relationships with people. Ultimately it’s not *that* important

  16. I tend to avoid discussing contentious political issues if I think they’re likely to cause major disagreement. Even during the abortion debate back in 2018 I avoided talking about the issue, not knowing how other people would respond.

    As for Germans supporting Israel – I do think the whole guilt complex they’ve developed as a result of the Holocaust lies at its core. Understandable really. They’re perceiving the situation from a very different lived historical experience from you.

  17. The thing is that most Germans are not able to differentiate between condemning the actions of the state Israel and condemning Jewish people.

    As such when somebody says even the slightest bit against Israel it’s considered antisemitic in most circles in Germany. At least that has been my experience growing up there

  20. Having lived here for a number of years discussing topics related somehow to WW2 is a difficult topic. Being critical of the Israeli government is different to being critical of Israeli people but as all citizens are required to send 2 years in the army when they turn 18 that nuance can be difficult for people.

  21. Most people I know who moved to Germany have gone to Berlin and are too busy snorting ket and not getting into the Berghain to worry about politics tbh

  22. I went to pro-palestine demonstrations in Neukolln last year, around the time the Israelis were decimating the Gaza strip. Was shocked to see riot police aggresively shut down the protests, which in turn incited a riot. Got a bit messy but it wasn’t that bad, no one was hurt just some projectiles hurled by young fellas. The police started charging the crowd in little units, at first there was no warning whatsoever. A stampede ensued, there were women with buggies nearly getting overrun. It seemed very overy aggressive and extremely dangerous to me. The protest was totally peaceful from what I saw. I think the police offically cited covid concerns as the reason they decided to shut it down, but I was at far larger marches around the same time (about housing in Berlin) and they went on for hours until they fizzled out. My impression from the whole situation was that the Germans are extremely sensitive about Israel and basically have no qualms stiffling pro-palestinian sentiment, it felt like a definite suppression of free speech. I even saw posters being conviscated for being anti-semetic, but they have an absurdly broad definition of what constitues anti-semetism, pretty much just adhere to the offical Israeli line which is essentially any critique of Israel amounts to Jew hatred.

  23. Pro-Palestine activists… a group renowned for their intelligence, tolerance, decorum, sense of humour and cool heads. Colour me shocked they would do such a thing!

  24. Oh wow, I never knew that. My parents lived in Germany for awhile and adore the country, I’ll have to ask them about that. Won’t lie, very surprised and shocked by that but it does make sense when you mention the Germany’s past of course (even tho being pro Palestine does NOT equal Anti Semitism)

    Maybe it’s just bc I’ve grown up in Ireland and my family is very involved in politics but I’m constantly shocked and surprised by the sheer about of countries that are pro Israel. Really support you on speaking out and I hope things get marginal better.

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