Well one thing we do right is elections. We have universal suffrage which would give us a leg up on quite a number of other countries, mostly the ones in red won’t have this. We have have single transferable vote so the power of the vote is very strong and we have a multiparty system so there is the ability to have varied opinions represented in gov. I think all of those are great. Not sure what Finland, Norway and Sweden are doing better than us really, we are doing fairly well.
Other countries being more corrupt does not negate the corruption that exists in Ireland.
Nice straw-man though!
I usually find those people haven’t spent a lot of time outside of Ireland.
One can’t really reduce a complex and contested concept like democracy to a bunch of arbitrarily-chosen measures and a colour-coded chart.
We can have democracy and still have corruption.
No laws for where th real corruption is, loopholes are created so it looks good on paper. The corruption between the banks, government and big businesses is rife. Corrupt politicians actually go to jail in the likes of the UK in Ireland its promotion. Whistle-blowers get witch hunted by government agencies. Eg Maurice McCabe.
Democracy died in this country when fine geal and Fianna Fáil came together
Norway seems to be at the top of every index
We definitely have problems, but we’re nowhere near being the most corrupt
Sometimes people overdo it but complaining about genuine issues here/wanting improvement ≠ thinking we live in an authoritarian regime.
When I complain about Ireland I’m not comparing it to places like Afghanistan, Myanmar and North Korea, I’m comparing it to New Zealand, Finland, Sweden and the rest at the top.
When do you ask the question if politicians in Ireland take bribes the answer is going to be no. In the counties in red, it is the standard operating procedure to bribe someone with cash to get what you want. Say what you want about Ireland but for the most part that simply does not happen (anymore). If it does it’s very unusual.
Just because there are countries more corrupt then us doesn’t mean we don’t have a massive corruption problem.
Strawman much?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone here say Ireland is one of the most undemocratic countries on earth.
You also seem to be conflating undemocratic and corrupt, which is a strange thing to do. You could live in the most democratic country in the world but you could still have bastards as politicians. Undemocratic and corrupt are definitely not interchangeable.
Maybe the reason Ireland isn’t corrupt (which isn’t what your graph shows but I don’t think Ireland is particularly corrupt relative to other countries) is because people here aren’t willing to stomach corruption? Like, what are people meant to do, not talk about corruption here? I see lots of people on this sub being upset about corruption, rarely if ever do I see someone call Ireland one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
These maps are fun but worth noting 2 things.
1.probably a good idea to check what a “democracy index” actually is, specifically what does 1 unit of democracy mean.
2.there will always be places with worse scores than ours, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t point out corruption when you see it.
Fucking Denmark beating us again!
So does that mean we should stop calling it out when we see it?
It’s probably the homeless , sleeping on the streets, looking at the TDs in 250,000 a year …..were they get the idea from I don’t know.
There’s a difference between being ”undemocratic” and being incompetent
I think most of the complaints are about the latter rather than the former, we’re not under any illusion that the elections are fucken rigged or something however it’s become abundantly clear that there are a certain class or grade of people which fill out our governments who quite obviously do *not* share the priorities of the public majority on a bipartisan basis
Democratically choosing the lesser of two evils when you only have a choice between bad and worse is still a ”full democracy” yeah…doesn’t mean everything’s fucking peachy over here…
And yeah before anyone says, we’re very privileged and lucky to live in such a free, prosperous, clean and functional country. By comparison we’re almost as good as it gets to the rest of the world, I truly appreciate and am grateful to have been born and raised here.
There’s still major problems that are *worth* complaining about.
Guys, my country is the 3rd worst in Europe and the other two are basically cancelled around the world for an obvious invasion, calm down.
It’s sad how so much of the world is slipping into authoritarianism year after year. We really don’t appreciate how good we have it here compared to nearly the entire world.
Maybe the thing that makes us a “good democracy” is by pointing out corruption where we see it.
I once got into an argument with a Sinn Fein member online after he suggested Fine Gael having allies in the top level of the civil service was an example of corruption and not just the basic functioning of state. When I asked why the hell would you hire someone who doesn’t share your ideology to implement your strategies, he implied I was on the payroll too.
Most Irish people have pudding for brains when it comes to what is or isn’t political corruption.
Seems people still don’t know what Democracy actually means. 🤦
We are lucky to have our voting system. The seats usually match up more or less to the support for each party. Like you have places like America where someone can win while having less votes than the other.
[deleted]
Point at the children’s hospital…
Sure were 100% corruption free… 🤔
Threads like these crop up now and then. I don’t think anyone has ever said anything close to that. Somethings are good in Ireland. Such as our representative political system and our mostly unbiased media. However there is plenty that needs to be improved upon. There is nothing wrong with wanting things to be better.
There is an assumption that because a constitution is democratic that’s it’s fair and functional, that’s a misnomer. An example would be a two party democracy where power generally sways between one major party or the other, such as in the USA or the UK. Ireland is more likely to have a coalition because of our system of proportional representation, but if coalition partners abandon their principles just to stay in power, it’s all rather meaningless.
Of course some democracy is better than none, or a completely despot democracy in name only, such as in Russia.
The issue with people complaining about corruption is that it’s more a sense of futility at a badly run government and Ireland has a laundry list of problems that the government never gets to grips with and they are seized on by the opposition who, if given the power, couldn’t change much in a five year term, particularly not housing, healthcare or transport infrastructure, those requires long term sacrifice and planning which is at odds with the short term ambitions of politicians.
By the same token, some of the lads on here like to brush off any suggestion of corruption as “It’s not corruption, they’re just stupid.”
Which is fine, I get that a lot of errors made aren’t malicious, just someone way out of their depth cocking up (though this still shouldn’t be acceptable) but even bringing up the concept that there might be corruption involved in certain events seems to trigger a whole response along these lines (and, tbh, a predictable post on this subreddit about how actually we aren’t as corrupt as everyone else).
I’m not saying Ireland is worse than other places by any means, but that response to every time there’s the possibility of corruption grates. I also don’t know if all corruption is neatly enclosed in something like the Democratic Index. I’ve watched friends in the HSE have their careers ruined by whistleblowing or challenging the system, have seen same reported in other services such as the Gardai and Armed Forces. Or, worse, people too afraid to speak up (I believe there was an article published about this today with regards to the Armed Forces). I’ve seen public/taxpayer money be thrown around with no heed or care by various crowds in the Department of Health and HSE, while also watching them knife Slaintecare as it attempted to bring greater transparency and accountability to their job practices. I’ve witnessed hospitals lie to both Irish and European governance about working hours, overcrowding, and conditions. Corruption? I don’t know, it’s certainly abuse of power. Do I know if this is worse or better elsewhere? Nope, and it doesn’t matter too much to me because I just want us to challenge it for ourselves.
I don’t believe we’re still mired in the days of brown envelopes or have to experience things like bribing civil servants just to get basic shit done, which I think is a more obvious corruption that we immediately jump to. My experience tends to be much more institutionalised abuses, again whether it falls into what people define as corruption or not, I don’t know. But I know that I like seeing people demand better, and demand transparency, which is something that can be lost when some responses to the possibility of corrupt/underhanded arrangements is “They’re just stupid.”
What has the blatant and fkin brazen corruption in Ireland got to do with this map? Yea, Ireland is a democracy, you get to choose between two parties and if you choose a third the two will just join together and rule… the fact you can vote does not negate the corruption.
Depends what you define as corruption
Grass is always greener on the other side, not saying there aren’t massive problems, but we have it quite good
Why is Bolivia ranked so low. Sure they had that coup a few years ago but then they had free and fair elections. Is it just because the gov is socialist leaning and an enemy of America?
A ‘Democracy Index’ from a British magazine the blamed the Irish for the famine – saying at the time it was “brought on by their own wickedness and folly”.
Yea, they are no authority on Democracy – they are one of the most prominent defenders of anti-democratic NeoLiberalism.
Great to see the bastion of democracy that is Ukraine doing so well, can’t wait to see them join the EU.
Like most things, you need a healthy middle ground. You can’t get so caught up in corruption that you forget to appreciate how fortunate and privileged you are. But saying “we’ve got it pretty good” and sticking your head in the sand isn’t very productive.
37 comments
Well one thing we do right is elections. We have universal suffrage which would give us a leg up on quite a number of other countries, mostly the ones in red won’t have this. We have have single transferable vote so the power of the vote is very strong and we have a multiparty system so there is the ability to have varied opinions represented in gov. I think all of those are great. Not sure what Finland, Norway and Sweden are doing better than us really, we are doing fairly well.
Other countries being more corrupt does not negate the corruption that exists in Ireland.
Nice straw-man though!
I usually find those people haven’t spent a lot of time outside of Ireland.
One can’t really reduce a complex and contested concept like democracy to a bunch of arbitrarily-chosen measures and a colour-coded chart.
We can have democracy and still have corruption.
No laws for where th real corruption is, loopholes are created so it looks good on paper. The corruption between the banks, government and big businesses is rife. Corrupt politicians actually go to jail in the likes of the UK in Ireland its promotion. Whistle-blowers get witch hunted by government agencies. Eg Maurice McCabe.
Democracy died in this country when fine geal and Fianna Fáil came together
Norway seems to be at the top of every index
We definitely have problems, but we’re nowhere near being the most corrupt
Sometimes people overdo it but complaining about genuine issues here/wanting improvement ≠ thinking we live in an authoritarian regime.
When I complain about Ireland I’m not comparing it to places like Afghanistan, Myanmar and North Korea, I’m comparing it to New Zealand, Finland, Sweden and the rest at the top.
When do you ask the question if politicians in Ireland take bribes the answer is going to be no. In the counties in red, it is the standard operating procedure to bribe someone with cash to get what you want. Say what you want about Ireland but for the most part that simply does not happen (anymore). If it does it’s very unusual.
Just because there are countries more corrupt then us doesn’t mean we don’t have a massive corruption problem.
Strawman much?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone here say Ireland is one of the most undemocratic countries on earth.
You also seem to be conflating undemocratic and corrupt, which is a strange thing to do. You could live in the most democratic country in the world but you could still have bastards as politicians. Undemocratic and corrupt are definitely not interchangeable.
Maybe the reason Ireland isn’t corrupt (which isn’t what your graph shows but I don’t think Ireland is particularly corrupt relative to other countries) is because people here aren’t willing to stomach corruption? Like, what are people meant to do, not talk about corruption here? I see lots of people on this sub being upset about corruption, rarely if ever do I see someone call Ireland one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
These maps are fun but worth noting 2 things.
1.probably a good idea to check what a “democracy index” actually is, specifically what does 1 unit of democracy mean.
2.there will always be places with worse scores than ours, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t point out corruption when you see it.
Fucking Denmark beating us again!
So does that mean we should stop calling it out when we see it?
It’s probably the homeless , sleeping on the streets, looking at the TDs in 250,000 a year …..were they get the idea from I don’t know.
There’s a difference between being ”undemocratic” and being incompetent
I think most of the complaints are about the latter rather than the former, we’re not under any illusion that the elections are fucken rigged or something however it’s become abundantly clear that there are a certain class or grade of people which fill out our governments who quite obviously do *not* share the priorities of the public majority on a bipartisan basis
Democratically choosing the lesser of two evils when you only have a choice between bad and worse is still a ”full democracy” yeah…doesn’t mean everything’s fucking peachy over here…
And yeah before anyone says, we’re very privileged and lucky to live in such a free, prosperous, clean and functional country. By comparison we’re almost as good as it gets to the rest of the world, I truly appreciate and am grateful to have been born and raised here.
There’s still major problems that are *worth* complaining about.
Guys, my country is the 3rd worst in Europe and the other two are basically cancelled around the world for an obvious invasion, calm down.
It’s sad how so much of the world is slipping into authoritarianism year after year. We really don’t appreciate how good we have it here compared to nearly the entire world.
Maybe the thing that makes us a “good democracy” is by pointing out corruption where we see it.
I once got into an argument with a Sinn Fein member online after he suggested Fine Gael having allies in the top level of the civil service was an example of corruption and not just the basic functioning of state. When I asked why the hell would you hire someone who doesn’t share your ideology to implement your strategies, he implied I was on the payroll too.
Most Irish people have pudding for brains when it comes to what is or isn’t political corruption.
Seems people still don’t know what Democracy actually means. 🤦
We are lucky to have our voting system. The seats usually match up more or less to the support for each party. Like you have places like America where someone can win while having less votes than the other.
[deleted]
Point at the children’s hospital…
Sure were 100% corruption free… 🤔
Threads like these crop up now and then. I don’t think anyone has ever said anything close to that. Somethings are good in Ireland. Such as our representative political system and our mostly unbiased media. However there is plenty that needs to be improved upon. There is nothing wrong with wanting things to be better.
There is an assumption that because a constitution is democratic that’s it’s fair and functional, that’s a misnomer. An example would be a two party democracy where power generally sways between one major party or the other, such as in the USA or the UK. Ireland is more likely to have a coalition because of our system of proportional representation, but if coalition partners abandon their principles just to stay in power, it’s all rather meaningless.
Of course some democracy is better than none, or a completely despot democracy in name only, such as in Russia.
The issue with people complaining about corruption is that it’s more a sense of futility at a badly run government and Ireland has a laundry list of problems that the government never gets to grips with and they are seized on by the opposition who, if given the power, couldn’t change much in a five year term, particularly not housing, healthcare or transport infrastructure, those requires long term sacrifice and planning which is at odds with the short term ambitions of politicians.
By the same token, some of the lads on here like to brush off any suggestion of corruption as “It’s not corruption, they’re just stupid.”
Which is fine, I get that a lot of errors made aren’t malicious, just someone way out of their depth cocking up (though this still shouldn’t be acceptable) but even bringing up the concept that there might be corruption involved in certain events seems to trigger a whole response along these lines (and, tbh, a predictable post on this subreddit about how actually we aren’t as corrupt as everyone else).
I’m not saying Ireland is worse than other places by any means, but that response to every time there’s the possibility of corruption grates. I also don’t know if all corruption is neatly enclosed in something like the Democratic Index. I’ve watched friends in the HSE have their careers ruined by whistleblowing or challenging the system, have seen same reported in other services such as the Gardai and Armed Forces. Or, worse, people too afraid to speak up (I believe there was an article published about this today with regards to the Armed Forces). I’ve seen public/taxpayer money be thrown around with no heed or care by various crowds in the Department of Health and HSE, while also watching them knife Slaintecare as it attempted to bring greater transparency and accountability to their job practices. I’ve witnessed hospitals lie to both Irish and European governance about working hours, overcrowding, and conditions. Corruption? I don’t know, it’s certainly abuse of power. Do I know if this is worse or better elsewhere? Nope, and it doesn’t matter too much to me because I just want us to challenge it for ourselves.
I don’t believe we’re still mired in the days of brown envelopes or have to experience things like bribing civil servants just to get basic shit done, which I think is a more obvious corruption that we immediately jump to. My experience tends to be much more institutionalised abuses, again whether it falls into what people define as corruption or not, I don’t know. But I know that I like seeing people demand better, and demand transparency, which is something that can be lost when some responses to the possibility of corrupt/underhanded arrangements is “They’re just stupid.”
What has the blatant and fkin brazen corruption in Ireland got to do with this map? Yea, Ireland is a democracy, you get to choose between two parties and if you choose a third the two will just join together and rule… the fact you can vote does not negate the corruption.
Depends what you define as corruption
Grass is always greener on the other side, not saying there aren’t massive problems, but we have it quite good
Why is Bolivia ranked so low. Sure they had that coup a few years ago but then they had free and fair elections. Is it just because the gov is socialist leaning and an enemy of America?
A ‘Democracy Index’ from a British magazine the blamed the Irish for the famine – saying at the time it was “brought on by their own wickedness and folly”.
https://www.rte.ie/history/famine-ireland/2020/0917/1165825-their-own-wickedness-how-the-british-press-reported-the-famine/
Yea, they are no authority on Democracy – they are one of the most prominent defenders of anti-democratic NeoLiberalism.
Great to see the bastion of democracy that is Ukraine doing so well, can’t wait to see them join the EU.
Like most things, you need a healthy middle ground. You can’t get so caught up in corruption that you forget to appreciate how fortunate and privileged you are. But saying “we’ve got it pretty good” and sticking your head in the sand isn’t very productive.