Journalist Szabolcs Panyi exposed Russian interference in the Hungarian election campaign and the suspicious relationship between Hungary’s foreign minister Péter Szijjártó and Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov — and in response, the Viktor Orbán’s government has filed an espionage complaint against him.
An interview with investigative journalist Szabolcs Panyi, of Direkt36 and VSquare.
First published in Napunk.sk
Hungarian justice minister Bence Tuzson filed a criminal complaint on Thursday (26 March) against you on charges of espionage. Have you received any kind of official notification about this complaint?
No, I have not received anything.
What do you expect will happen with this complaint?
I do not know what to expect. Just yesterday a good article appeared on 444, which reported that the Orbán system is constantly bombarding its opponents with criminal complaints. These cases then drag on in the courts for years, eventually fizzle out, and almost nothing is ever proven.
The Orbán system uses these complaints as tools of political theatre. It tries to suggest to the public that if someone is reported to the authorities and in the process, is accused of a very serious crime, what will stick in people’s minds is that this person surely committed that crime. Then, two or three years later, the case is no longer relevant, and at that point, those who were reported are usually acquitted. This is an established part of the political communication toolkit.
At the same time, this is a very serious charge. In such cases, even pre-trial detention can be ordered. Have you thought about that?
I work as a journalist, and this is the criminalisation of investigative journalism. As I have already said publicly, this really evokes the Russian, Putin-style model.
In the past week-and-a-half, things have come to light, events have taken place, that suggest we are dealing with a panicking, disintegrating power. One that feels control slipping from its hands. It does not know what to do, so it bangs its fists on the table ever more loudly and angrily, and tries to force ever more absurd, reality-detached narratives onto public opinion.
I see this not as a sign of strength, but much more as a sign of weakness.
Some of my colleagues say that a cornered animal is the most dangerous, because it is unpredictable, it panics and does not behave rationally. Here, too, we can see that this regime has started to behave irrationally.
Once again: this is entirely the Russian/Soviet model. But there is one major difference: in Hungary — at least so far — there has been no tradition of using violence against journalists, not even severe violence by the authorities.
Journalists have not been imprisoned, beaten up or murdered, as sadly happened in Slovakia. I think society would react quite sharply to that. In every respect, this is a crossing of a red line.
As in Brussels, the Hungarian government consistently takes positions that support the Kremlin’s interests when it boycotts or vetoes common European positions. In the Hungarian election campaign, we likewise see it attacking the opposition with arguments and in ways that benefit Russia.
The case that led to the complaint against you began with the conversations between foreign ministers Péter Szijjártó and Sergei Lavrov and with Russian interference in the Hungarian election campaign. You are constantly bringing new information to light in these cases. One question is how serious the information is that Szijjártó is leaking to Lavrov. Szijjártó is trying to play this down: he claims that everybody phones everybody, and that he only discusses completely public matters that are important because of Hungary’s interests. What do you make of this argument?
It is nonsense. For example, the Slovak foreign minister does not have such a special relationship with Lavrov.
It is very important to highlight something Szijjártó himself often emphasises: he has been foreign minister since 2014. So his relationship with Lavrov does not simply stem from his diplomatic function; it is a very old, long-standing relationship. You can see from their gestures that this is a friendship-like relationship, a very close cooperation that has developed over more than a decade.
I have not heard of any other foreign minister who, during a break in an EU meeting, would step outside and immediately call Lavrov.
This is completely unprecedented. There is no other foreign minister like this in the European Union today.
Hungarian foreign affairs minister Péter Szijjártó and his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov (Source: Péter Szijjártó’s Facebook page)
When you spoke to sources who know the details of Szijjártó and Lavrov’s conversations, how did they assess this? In your post on Thursday (26 March), you also write that there could even be a suspicion of influence-agent activity.
They said that if it were not about Szijjártó but about any other, lower-ranking European official, and if anyone were passing such information to the Russians, a counter-intelligence investigation would be launched against them on suspicion of conducting political intelligence-gathering activity on behalf of the Russian Federation.
So the weight of the information and the very high level at which this is happening raise this suspicion. Influence-agent activity does not only mean that whatever is said in the room reaches Moscow, but also that the Hungarian position, which continuously blocks a common European Union stance — mainly regarding Ukraine, Russia and sanctions — is always suspiciously close to the Russian position.
If someone were to do a simple content analysis of the arguments put forward by the Hungarian government, they would see that these always favour the Kremlin. Szijjártó or Orbán may say they are acting in the Hungarian national interest, but their positions and actions in Brussels always strengthen the Kremlin’s positions.
And this is very strange: if, according to them, they are representing the Hungarian national interest, why does that always coincide with the Kremlin’s interest?
How do you explain the fact that Szijjártó made these phone calls over completely open lines?