Václav Bartuška: “The revolution was too velvety”

“I was never beaten during my interrogations. It was much more civilised.”

You started out in journalism. When you began university in 1987 what was the perspective for the life or the career of a journalist, under communism?

“First of all, we have to say that most guys who went to university – no matter what course of study – did so simply to avoid two-year military service.

“Because if you did go to university, and finished it, you would go for just one year.

“And trust me, the difference between one year of military service and two years was fundamental.

“I first tried to get into law school, which didn’t happen, and then I couldn’t care less which university I went to – I just wanted to get in, to avoid two years of military service.”

So you had no interest in journalism?

“I was interested in it, but it wasn’t the primary motivation.”

And in 1988 you were thrown out of the magazine Mladý Svět.

“I wasn’t really thrown out. It was suggested to me not to come again. It was done that way.

“I was arrested in August ’88 [for taking part in a demonstration commemorating the Soviet-led invasion of 1968] and I was waiting for my trial.

“And things were funny in a way, because people wouldn’t tell you not to come ever again. They would be like, Maybe it’s better for you not to come again.

“People were kind of polite. It wasn’t the ‘50s. I was never beaten during my interrogations. I was never tortured, nothing like that.

“It was much more civilised, let’s say.”

The following year, in 1989, you were one of the student leaders of the Velvet Revolution. You were there on November 17 on Národní. Obviously a lot of things happened then. But are there any standout memories for you, from that time?

“For me the number one memory is that people around the country rose up with us.

“Because if it was only Prague, if it was only Prague students, we would all have been arrested the next day and there would have been no revolution.

“It was the fourth attempt by Czech students in the 20th century to do something against a totalitarian regime. All our predecessors ended very badly.”

“What I really admire is that people around the country stood up. Millions and millions of people.

“Without them we wouldn’t be here discussing this today.

“The second thing is it was the fourth attempt by Czech students in the 20th century to do something against a totalitarian regime.

“All our predecessors ended very badly. In 1939 they were mostly killed by the Nazis or sent to camps. In ’48 and ’68 they were mostly sent to prison for long terms.

“So we weren’t very hopeful, to be honest. We were just fed up. Sometimes desperation is the biggest motivation.”

Later on you were on a parliamentary commission looking into events on and around November 17. What were the main things you learned?

“The main reason I went into that work was that we wanted to destroy completely the secret police, the State Security [StB].

“I was pretty vengeful. I was 21 back then and I wanted those people to go to prison.”

“And to be able to do that, you first had to know how it was structured, where it actually was.

“Because we knew the places where we were interrogated, we knew the prisons, but we had no idea about the structure of the secret police: where the headquarters were, who the members were.

“So I spent half a year in that job. I was part of the work that ended with the arrest of the minister of the interior, his deputy and the head of the secret police.

“And I was pretty vengeful. I was 21 back then and I wanted those people to go to prison. Because what they did in this country was really, really bad.”

And you use the term “revolution”? I know not everybody likes it.

“It’s everybody’s choice. I do call it a revolution.

“I don’t really speak about the ‘Velvet Revolution’, because for me it was too velvety, in many ways.

“[Václav Havel and I] always disagreed. We mostly argued.”

“The students wanted to ban the Communist Party but in the end we obeyed Václav Havel, who didn’t want to have such a drastic step.

“So it wasn’t a complete revolution, I would say – it was much more polite.”

Do you consider that a great mistake of Havel’s?

“Look, it’s so easy to speak about mistakes today.

“Imagine us. I was last detained on November 19. It was a one-hour detention – the shortest in my life [laughs].

“Ten days later, on November 29, I was elected by Parliament to investigate the secret police.

“In mid-January I was given special powers to talk to anyone in the secret police, to interrogate anyone, to sack people.

“The speed of that was such that of course we all made mistakes. I’m sure of that.

“At the same time, Václav Havel was someone without whom the whole change wouldn’t happen, or wouldn’t happen that easily and that smoothly.”

Did you spend much time around Havel? If you did, what kind of an impression did he make on you?

“We always disagreed. I think we mostly argued. And I was really surprised in 2003, when he ended his presidential career, that he asked me to be the first director of his presidential library.

“Because we were not really friends. I respected him enormously and I guess he knew what I was doing, but we were not real friends, no.”

Getting back to the secret police, were they aware of you and all the other student leaders in ’89, or were some of you under the radar?

“Let’s be honest, there were 40,000 students in Prague and the whole active group of people before 1989 was about 20 or 25 people.

“There were very, very few of us stupid enough to have some trouble with the regime. Most of our school mates were smart.”

You’re too modest. That’s much too modest.

“No, no, look…”

You were brave.

“That’s very kind of you. But it was a very small group of people, so they knew about us.

“And what really shocked them, and what saved us, after November ’89, in the revolution, was that so many of our student friends and schoolmates joined the strike, and joined the demonstrations.

“If it was only the 20, 25 people, we would all have been arrested on the first day, and I’d never be talking to you on Radio Prague International.”

You wrote a book about what happened on and around November 17 that sold nearly a quarter of a million copies. How did you spend the earnings?

“I travelled around the world. I went on a trip.

“I wanted to travel. For me probably my biggest complaint about socialism was that we could not travel to the West.

“So I used all the money on travelling. I went on several trips. I went to South Africa, Canada, Mexico, the US. I just wanted to see the world.

“I think the Communists were really stupid. If they opened up the world to us, the whole opposition movement would be much, much smaller.”

But then other things would be different too, no? The elite would be smaller, and…

“That’s probably what’s happening in some countries today.

“You let people who are not satisfied go, and then you have a much more stable regime back at home.”

In the 1990s you did work as a journalist. You later did other things and eventually you became the government’s envoy for energy security. What were the main challenges you found in that role?

“The biggest difficulty was to explain to people that sometimes the lowest price is not the cheapest one.”

“Well, in 2006 the government wanted somebody who would help to make our country independent of Russian supplies of oil, gas and nuclear fuel.

“And as the minister of foreign affairs at the time said, they wanted somebody who speaks Russian, who knows Russia well, but doesn’t have Russian schools.

“So that’s how I got the job.

“And the biggest difficulty was to explain to people that sometimes the lowest price is not the cheapest one; sometimes the lowest price creates a dependency for which you will pay later.

“I think a good example is Russian natural gas, which was fundamentally cheaper than what you could buy in Rotterdam.

“But then in 2022, when the war broke out, Russia basically shut down much of the supplies to Europe and the price of gas reached an astronomical height, in the summer of 2022.

“So basically being dependent on any single supplier, or any single friend, is always dangerous.

“I think we learned the hard way that diversification actually makes sense.”

Speaking of Russia, it’s hard to imagine today that six years ago a Russian firm was considered a legitimate candidate for the contract to expand [Czech nuclear power station] Dukovany. That ended of course with the revelations about Vrbětice and the attack in 2014. But still, were Czech officials naive, just six years ago?

“You could say the same about French, German or British officials, for that matter.

“Or American ones. George W. Bush famously looked into the eyes of Vladimir Putin and saw a true democrat.

“So I’m sure there was plenty of good will, of willingness to see Russia as a country which wants to be democratic, yes.”

But still, that was after Crimea, for instance?

“It was after Georgia, Crimea. You could also look up what happened in Abkhazia and Transnistria and elsewhere.

“But I think many people in the West wanted to see Russia as a potential friend.”

So we were all naive?

“I think we should be much more focused on keeping our industries running. We should be much less naive.”

“I travelled to Russia a lot, so the things I wrote were probably different. I guess that’s why I got the job, in 2006.

“At the same time, I do remember quite a few events and conferences in the West where I would be asked to say what I think, with the introduction, This is the guy who was born in 1968, so obviously he has some issues.

“That stopped in 2022.”

As for Dukovany, Korea’s KHNP won the tender but the European Commission is now looking into whether the Czech government’s proposed support package complies with EU rules. It’s such an enormous investment for Czechia – what’s your prediction about how this will play out ultimately?

“I think and I hope that the whole project will succeed.

“Of course it will be difficult. I oversaw the nuclear tender we had 15 years ago.

“I visited some 30 sites globally, from China to the US, from Russia to India, and many European ones.

“There was not a single one which would not be delayed, at least partly, and which would not be more expensive than originally thought.

“So, it will be difficult, I’m pretty sure about that.

“At the same time, I saw what the Koreans have been able to do both in Korea and in the Emirates, with the Barakah nuclear power plant, and I do believe that the choice was right.”

Maybe this isn’t your area, but about energy policy in general, this summer we’ve seen some really intense, and for me scary, weather events in Europe and elsewhere. Is it possible, do you think, to somehow balance reform, and to cut emissions and so on, and the need to keep European economies prospering?

“I’ve been in London this summer. There were almost 10 weeks without rain. You could see Hyde Park – scorched.

“So we do see quite a few changes, obviously.

“At the same time, let’s be honest, the fact that Europe is giving up coal and most fossil fuels doesn’t mean anything to the rest of the world; the world keeps consuming oil, gas and coal and doesn’t really care what Europe thinks.

“So there’s a hard choice ahead of us in Europe – whether we want to keep our industries going or not.”

What do you think we should do?

“I think we should be much more focused on keeping our industries running. We should be much less naive. Nobody really cares what Europe thinks.

“It’s a very hard message for the British or French or Germans or Spanish, because they’re used to the world listening to them.

“For me as a Czech it’s easy to say, because no one ever cared what the Czechs think, or what the Czechs say.

“It’s very difficult for the big European nations. I understand that.

“But at the same time, if you look at the global scale, Europe is not that important anymore.”

You mentioned London. Now of course you’re in a very different role than previously, as the Czech Republic’s ambassador to the UK. You’ve been there for a year. Even though you have a great amount of experience, it’s your first ambassadorial role and it’s clearly a high-profile posting. How have you found the adjustment?

“Actually, fairly easy. I spent 19 years as an ambassador at large, a flying ambassador – a special envoy.

“So I was never home; I was mostly in a plane or in a hotel.

“Being in one place now is actually a very, very nice change. And London is of course a great place to be. The United Kingdom is a great country to be in.

“And naturally you see the world differently from London than you saw it from Prague.

“At the same time, most of my previous job was to see the world as it is, and to see the realities – to talk to companies, to talk with miners and so forth.

“So I’ve been in the world out there before, for 19 years doing the energy security job.

“It’s not so different now.”

What’s your sense, after a year, of how this country is perceived in Great Britain?

“It really depends who you talk to. Cultured people know Janáček, or Dvořák.

“Many people know that Czech pilots were the fifth largest nationality in the RAF in the Second World War, in the Battle of Britain, and so forth.

“I really would like to see a major cooperation [with the UK] in the defence area.”

“There are also quite a few people in the UK who have no idea that there’s something east of Germany.

“Or they know about Prague because of cheap beer, or even complain that the beer is not cheap any more.

“So it really depends who you talk to. Just like here – our knowledge of the UK is also very varied.”

I’m sure, though, that at least some Brits know Daniel Křetinský. He owns the Royal Mail and part of Sainsbury’s and part of West Ham United. The Czech firm Allwyn operates the National Lottery. Do you see other areas in which Czech firms could do more in Britain?

“You just stole my talking points, because this is actually the biggest pride I have right now – the Czech companies which are really big in the UK.

“We have a Czech billionaire [Pavel Tykač] who owns steel mills in Cardiff and power stations in the country.

“Škoda of course – it’s the ninth biggest [car] brand in the UK.

“And of course there is the investment by ČEZ, the Czech utility and electricity company, into Rolls Royce and the SMR – the small modular nuclear reactors project.

“So there are quite a few Czech investments in the UK.

“Daniel Křetinský is well-known, especially now with the West Ham situation and the Royal Mail.

“So yes, we do have quite a few visible Czech investors in the UK.”

And do you see other areas where Czechs could expand in future?

“I really would like to see a major cooperation in the defence area.

“There are several projects which are being discussed at the moment.

“I think that’s one area where we should have many more links. Because the world has changed – we do need weapons.

“I know it’s unpleasant to say, but the world has substantially changed and we need to be ready for what comes next.”

It sometimes seems like they have a revolving door at 10 Downing Street. Have you met the most recent British prime minister?

“I haven’t met Andy Burnham yet. He’s the fifth prime minister in the last four years.

“I’ve been to 10 Downing Street several times already. I did meet Prime Minister Starmer.

“And you can say what you want about British politics, but at the same time the UK is still the fifth largest economy in the world.

“And a lot is still being done and decided in London.

“I do believe that British politics are actually a lot more functional than people sometimes assume.

“I meet quite a few people who work in British politics, or in the British civil service, and there are some very, very capable people there.”

Away from business and politics, I understand that you were in the Royal Box for the all-Czech women’s singles final at Wimbledon?

“If a player from your country makes it to the Wimbledon men’s or ladies’ finals, the ambassador from that country is invited to the Royal Box.

“And since we had two Czech ladies in the final, I went there.

“It was a very nice experience. Martina Navrátilová was in the box. So were [fellow previous winners] Petra Kvitová and Jan Kodeš.

“It was really, really interesting to watch, and a very good match, by the way.

“Both Karolína Muchová and Linda Hosková played very, very well. So it was a nice experience.

“You know, the job of ambassador to the UK is a bit stressful, quite often.

“Because the world is changing very, very fast, and many of the news I have to deal with are not very pleasant, like the war in the Persian Gulf, like the war in Ukraine.

“So things like Jakub Hrůša now being music director of the Royal Opera House in Convent Garden, or having two ladies in the final at Wimbledon – those are the sweet spots of my job.

“I enjoy that very much.”