I think this is disgraceful. General elections are not one issue votes and it would be wrong for Nicola to claim Scotland has voted for independence if independence parties won a majority because people will vote for them for a wide variety of reasons, not just because of their view on independence,
Nicola’s actions over the last few weeks just make her look desperate. Despite disagreeing with her completely on a lot of issues (including independence), I always thought she was quite composed with these sorts of issues. However, it seems she is just throwing everything at the wall and trying to find something that sticks. It’s as if she sees this as Scotland’s only chance at becoming independent (even though opinion poll’s suggest Scotland disagrees with her).
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But it won’t, because that is not how it works. She’s just grandstanding for the clueless Indy voters.
That is a remarkably cynical little campaign ploy:
>I want a lawful referendum but if that is blocked at every turn then the only option is for my party to say to people in the election ‘use this as the de facto referendum to express your views on independence’, and I would be putting that very clearly to the Scottish people.”
An IndieRef is a distinct and separate vote, with entirely different considerations, apart from picking a candidate — the least of which is that it ignores an entire domestic slate in favor of a single macro-level, inter-sovereign dispute.
You can be for Scottish independence and think Sturgeon is a dunce, or oppose independence but prefer the SNP’s general leftward policies – or even be outside the mainstream parties entirely and wish to register your sentiment with a niche vote.
If the SNP win the UK General Election, agreed.
It can trigger independence when she wins sufficient seats *in the rest of the UK* to get her bill through Westminster.
The fantasy that Scotland is a separate kingdom exists only within her mind. In reality Scotland ceased to be a separate kingdom with the Act of Union
>That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof **and forever after be United into One Kingdom** by the Name of Great Britain
Vote Jimmie and her radicals out of office. Just know that the majority of Scots are not zealots for the SNP. Lots of us hate the fact that this issue was settled permanently in 2014 but this individual keeps trying to force the issue.
And I’m sure if the SNP don’t get more the 50% of votes (which they never have), they will consider that a defacto vote for the union? No. Didn’t think so.
But didn’t overall the pro-Union parties got a majority of the votes last election, just spread over each party. If she wants to go that way she should push for PR and then that will prove if they want independence.
>Ms Sturgeon explained that if the UK Supreme Court ruled that there was no lawful route for the Scottish government to hold an independence referendum, and if the UK government continued to refuse to pass on the power to hold a referendum, then “the general election becomes as far as I’m concerned the de facto referendum”.
>
>The first minister added: “Of course as a matter of principle, Scotland will only become independent when a majority vote for it.”
>
>She said voters must not be “blocked from having their say on this key issue”.
>
>Ms Sturgeon said that it was not her choice for the question of independence to be put to voters in the general election.
>
>She went on: “I want a lawful referendum but if that is blocked at every turn then the only option is for my party to say to people in the election ‘use this as the de facto referendum to express your views on independence’, and I would be putting that very clearly to the Scottish people.”
Seems fair enough. If the UK govt bock a referendum and people are clear that voting for the SNP means independence, what’s the problem?
Isnt this literally how the general election was used to confirm going ahead with Brexit?
The fact they still don’t have all the intricacies worked out and documented, specifically finances, even though you’d have expected that to exist since 2014, is ridiculous.
Scotland almost certainly can’t survive on it’s own. Not with free uni, an NHS, pensions etc, miles of roads to maintain in the middle of nowhere.
Don’t think the pro-independence lot know what they’d be sacrificing.
I also don’t think the English and Welsh realise that we won’t let the Scotland collapse, so after their independence experiment goes tits up, the UK would have to bail them out, costing us a fortune, and they’d probably lose Scottish parliament whilst they’re at it.
If we don’t help, all of Scotland would migrate south of the border and the sheep would take over.
Does anyone know what Scotland contribute and gain from being in the UK?
I’m quite neutral on this. I don’t know if Scotland take more than they contribute or if it would damage the UK if they broke away.
Think sturgeon is following Johnson’s example now and trying to force this through and deal with legal ramifications after.
Practical question – if someone is a British citizen (born and bred SE England), but resides in Scotland – what will happen if Scotland becomes independent? The same thing that has happened to Brits in Spain and France after Brexit? Or will it be different?
Given that the London Tory government doesn’t represent the majority of Scotland or even care in the slightest I can’t blame them for wanting this.
The UK, like any other relationship should not be taken for granted. Scotland clearly feels it can do better, that needs to be heard.
This entire thread is filled with people telling Scots we’re not allowed any route to independence except at the whim of Johnson/whatever Tory you decide to elect next time.
Can you none of you see how this might look from a Scottish perspective? Or from any other country on earth?
Jesus this reaaaally touches a nerve with English people here. Can you blame the Scottish for wanting to leave after brexit and 12 years of tories.
Do people not really understand how this is different from brexit?
Really brings my piss to a boil when you have Boris, the face of Brexit, is arguing for Scotland to remain on grounds of strong economic ties.
If democracy in Scotland is ignored then this becomes a way to gain indy. UDI is perfectly legal and recognised as so by the world.
Why the fuck is this stupid bint getting to do this shit again!!!!!!
WE VOTED NO!!!!!!!
ONCE IN A LIFETIME THEY SAID!!!!!!
or is that promise only if the vote goes their way.
Voting SNP isn’t voting for independence.
I have a novel idea…..at the next election why not have 2 SNP vote options….1 to vote SNP in an independent Scotland and 1 for SNP as the ruling party of Scotland still in the union!!!
Sturgeon and that fat pie eating twat Salmond are egotistical maniacs!
Jesus Christ is she still going? If I want anything resembling a speech from Nicola Sturgeon I’ll go and hold my hands under the dryers in the gents.
Quite a bit further down the road but it will be interesting to see the electoral commission state what the questions should be.
After 2014, the 2016 referendum moved away from a Yes/No as it was unduly beneficial to Yes.
I can’t see them recommending a reverse and give the same side the same benefits this time around.
I’m Scottish and British and I am sick fed up of her and the SNP
We need to focus on the important things like why we pay more tax in Scotland – thanks to the SNP, why my kids learns about the ‘bastard’ English at School yet they aren’t taught that a Scottish King created the UK by sitting on the English Throne, why we have the highest rate of drug deaths in Europe, swathes of poverty and alcoholism
The SNP are a one trick pony – all about Independence at any cost! She even says that we will be worse of by going Independent- no NATO – No Europe – so what’s the benefit!? Oh we can simply say we left the Union
Utter Nutter
I think if she convinced enough people to paint their faces blue and attack down south there is a big chance for an independent Scotland….😏
25 comments
I think this is disgraceful. General elections are not one issue votes and it would be wrong for Nicola to claim Scotland has voted for independence if independence parties won a majority because people will vote for them for a wide variety of reasons, not just because of their view on independence,
Nicola’s actions over the last few weeks just make her look desperate. Despite disagreeing with her completely on a lot of issues (including independence), I always thought she was quite composed with these sorts of issues. However, it seems she is just throwing everything at the wall and trying to find something that sticks. It’s as if she sees this as Scotland’s only chance at becoming independent (even though opinion poll’s suggest Scotland disagrees with her).
[removed]
But it won’t, because that is not how it works. She’s just grandstanding for the clueless Indy voters.
That is a remarkably cynical little campaign ploy:
>I want a lawful referendum but if that is blocked at every turn then the only option is for my party to say to people in the election ‘use this as the de facto referendum to express your views on independence’, and I would be putting that very clearly to the Scottish people.”
An IndieRef is a distinct and separate vote, with entirely different considerations, apart from picking a candidate — the least of which is that it ignores an entire domestic slate in favor of a single macro-level, inter-sovereign dispute.
You can be for Scottish independence and think Sturgeon is a dunce, or oppose independence but prefer the SNP’s general leftward policies – or even be outside the mainstream parties entirely and wish to register your sentiment with a niche vote.
If the SNP win the UK General Election, agreed.
It can trigger independence when she wins sufficient seats *in the rest of the UK* to get her bill through Westminster.
The fantasy that Scotland is a separate kingdom exists only within her mind. In reality Scotland ceased to be a separate kingdom with the Act of Union
>That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof **and forever after be United into One Kingdom** by the Name of Great Britain
Vote Jimmie and her radicals out of office. Just know that the majority of Scots are not zealots for the SNP. Lots of us hate the fact that this issue was settled permanently in 2014 but this individual keeps trying to force the issue.
And I’m sure if the SNP don’t get more the 50% of votes (which they never have), they will consider that a defacto vote for the union? No. Didn’t think so.
But didn’t overall the pro-Union parties got a majority of the votes last election, just spread over each party. If she wants to go that way she should push for PR and then that will prove if they want independence.
>Ms Sturgeon explained that if the UK Supreme Court ruled that there was no lawful route for the Scottish government to hold an independence referendum, and if the UK government continued to refuse to pass on the power to hold a referendum, then “the general election becomes as far as I’m concerned the de facto referendum”.
>
>The first minister added: “Of course as a matter of principle, Scotland will only become independent when a majority vote for it.”
>
>She said voters must not be “blocked from having their say on this key issue”.
>
>Ms Sturgeon said that it was not her choice for the question of independence to be put to voters in the general election.
>
>She went on: “I want a lawful referendum but if that is blocked at every turn then the only option is for my party to say to people in the election ‘use this as the de facto referendum to express your views on independence’, and I would be putting that very clearly to the Scottish people.”
Seems fair enough. If the UK govt bock a referendum and people are clear that voting for the SNP means independence, what’s the problem?
Isnt this literally how the general election was used to confirm going ahead with Brexit?
The fact they still don’t have all the intricacies worked out and documented, specifically finances, even though you’d have expected that to exist since 2014, is ridiculous.
Scotland almost certainly can’t survive on it’s own. Not with free uni, an NHS, pensions etc, miles of roads to maintain in the middle of nowhere.
Don’t think the pro-independence lot know what they’d be sacrificing.
I also don’t think the English and Welsh realise that we won’t let the Scotland collapse, so after their independence experiment goes tits up, the UK would have to bail them out, costing us a fortune, and they’d probably lose Scottish parliament whilst they’re at it.
If we don’t help, all of Scotland would migrate south of the border and the sheep would take over.
Does anyone know what Scotland contribute and gain from being in the UK?
I’m quite neutral on this. I don’t know if Scotland take more than they contribute or if it would damage the UK if they broke away.
Think sturgeon is following Johnson’s example now and trying to force this through and deal with legal ramifications after.
Practical question – if someone is a British citizen (born and bred SE England), but resides in Scotland – what will happen if Scotland becomes independent? The same thing that has happened to Brits in Spain and France after Brexit? Or will it be different?
Given that the London Tory government doesn’t represent the majority of Scotland or even care in the slightest I can’t blame them for wanting this.
The UK, like any other relationship should not be taken for granted. Scotland clearly feels it can do better, that needs to be heard.
This entire thread is filled with people telling Scots we’re not allowed any route to independence except at the whim of Johnson/whatever Tory you decide to elect next time.
Can you none of you see how this might look from a Scottish perspective? Or from any other country on earth?
Jesus this reaaaally touches a nerve with English people here. Can you blame the Scottish for wanting to leave after brexit and 12 years of tories.
Do people not really understand how this is different from brexit?
Really brings my piss to a boil when you have Boris, the face of Brexit, is arguing for Scotland to remain on grounds of strong economic ties.
If democracy in Scotland is ignored then this becomes a way to gain indy. UDI is perfectly legal and recognised as so by the world.
Why the fuck is this stupid bint getting to do this shit again!!!!!!
WE VOTED NO!!!!!!!
ONCE IN A LIFETIME THEY SAID!!!!!!
or is that promise only if the vote goes their way.
Voting SNP isn’t voting for independence.
I have a novel idea…..at the next election why not have 2 SNP vote options….1 to vote SNP in an independent Scotland and 1 for SNP as the ruling party of Scotland still in the union!!!
Sturgeon and that fat pie eating twat Salmond are egotistical maniacs!
Jesus Christ is she still going? If I want anything resembling a speech from Nicola Sturgeon I’ll go and hold my hands under the dryers in the gents.
Quite a bit further down the road but it will be interesting to see the electoral commission state what the questions should be.
After 2014, the 2016 referendum moved away from a Yes/No as it was unduly beneficial to Yes.
I can’t see them recommending a reverse and give the same side the same benefits this time around.
I’m Scottish and British and I am sick fed up of her and the SNP
We need to focus on the important things like why we pay more tax in Scotland – thanks to the SNP, why my kids learns about the ‘bastard’ English at School yet they aren’t taught that a Scottish King created the UK by sitting on the English Throne, why we have the highest rate of drug deaths in Europe, swathes of poverty and alcoholism
The SNP are a one trick pony – all about Independence at any cost! She even says that we will be worse of by going Independent- no NATO – No Europe – so what’s the benefit!? Oh we can simply say we left the Union
Utter Nutter
I think if she convinced enough people to paint their faces blue and attack down south there is a big chance for an independent Scotland….😏