Is the narrative that “immigrants hurt the economy” pure fear mongering?

49 comments

1. Only half of it is fear-mongering, the other half is scapegoating.

   Public services have been decimated and with any increase in population, public services need to grow to match that. Our current government is hell bent on gutting it for political purposes and it’s much easier to blame immigration than it’s actual failings.

2. Illegal immigrants, they do hurt the economy.

   Legal? Not at all. If they’re here legally, they are here wanting a better lifestyle, more often than not, and as another post has said, may well open up new businesses, actually creating potential jobs.

3. It’s more like shooting yourself. Britain needs more tax payers to pay for aging Tory voters. Those immigrants who worked unskilled jobs have offspring that are doctors, lawyers and foreign secretaries tomorrow.

4. The economic literature on the effect of immigration on natives’ employment hasn’t really reached a consensus. Theoretically, the reasons to believe that increases in immigration depress natives’ salaries are quite intuitive: immigrants increase the supply of labor and thus decrease its price (wages). Things aren’t always so simple though, since immigrants also increase aggregate demand for goods and services and thus the demand for labor (thus wages), and this partially cancels out the former effect.

   I can provide references to actual academic papers but they can be quite technical. All in all, the truth is that we really don’t know what the effect of immigration is on labor, but it is probably not large enough to justify the political vitriol.

   Happy to expand on this if anyone’s interested.

5. It has nothing to do with the left or right that freer movement of labour will bring wages down and prevent proper collective bargaining and effective industrial action generally, it’s just an obvious fact. That’s because employers who have workers striking for better pay and conditions can in a scenario with completely mobile labour, bring in said labour from outside and this labour will put up with lower pay and worse conditions, their immigrant status rendering them vulnerable in this respect. In addition, there is only so much labour that any country, even a large one, can absorb.

   I think sixty millions is probably enough for an island this size. The cities are already crowded and expensive, and London is off the charts in both these respects. There needs to be green spaces, space for wildlife, and space for affordable homes. All of this on a crowded island.

   For these reasons I think immigration should be strictly controlled, and more incentives offered to workers already here, native and foreign, to make up shortfalls in labour. Don’t be taken in by the neoliberal propaganda which would have you believe that the very best thing is to make labour extremely mobile, because its mobility in that case is just the condition for its being more exploitable.

6. “it seems this is more that offset by the net contributions to the government budget which makes it easier for the Gov to provide welfare and essential services”

   The government has no such thing. Government can purchase anything for sale in the UK at any time without funding.

   It’s that ‘budget constraint’ lie on which everything neoliberal rests – including the immigration trope. In reality the UK state [is self-financing](https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/sites/bartlett_public_purpose/files/the_self-financing_state_an_institutional_analysis_of_government_expenditure_revenue_collection_and_debt_issuance_operations_in_the_united_kingdom.pdf).

   People don’t want hand outs from government. People want jobs that pay a living wage, a house to live in, enough food in the shops, and a pension to look forward to.

   You just don’t get that trying to turn the UK into greater Tokyo.

   We have a nation unable to grow enough food to feed its population, with insufficient energy resources to heat our homes and insufficient homes to house the current population. Plus the existing population doesn’t want any more net incomers, which should override all other considerations – particularly rich people getting richer on the back of it.

   Moreover there is no consideration here of the impact to the area where immigrants come from. The UK taking young people from other parts of the world reduces the labour capacity of that part of the world. Giving those nations dollars or pounds is no good when there is no young people to look after their old people, or any doctors to look after the sick. Again it is based upon this idea that money is always the appropriate substitute. It isn’t.

   Net immigration is just a continuation of the old colonial appropriation of other nation’s resources for the benefit of the West.

   Just as we’re going for net zero on carbon, we should be going for net zero on immigration. Instead we should instigate a policy of *outward investment* and create factories and work in foreign places. That way the people there can stay with their families and friends, yet still have sufficient work to create a life for themselves.

   Let’s improve the rest of the world rather than moving people here.

7. There’s a big difference between immigrants that fill a skills gap (who nobody sane argues against) than unskilled who allow employers to not raise wages.

   The other problem is successive governments haven’t invested in infrastructure or housing to keep up with the numbers.

8. that may be true but a big reason for many people is the fact/belief that wages remain low because the market is flooded with workers.

9. Immigration is great for the economy but shit for everything else.

10. Some do some dont

11. >This is a claim made by many prominent (usually conservative or further right) politicians.

    Just to stop you right there… Do you have any examples at hand?

    I’m just eager to rule out the possibility that this is largely in your head tbh. That’s not to definitively say I don’t believe you, but with 80%+ of posts on this subreddit seemingly boiling down to “Tory bad” it’s not always clear which comments are just that and which have an actual factual basis.

12. Illegal immigrants are the problem,Not Legal immigrants.Dont confuse the two.

13. The economy is one thing, but we need to ask ourselves why this debate is so fraught and the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

    Migration is fine per se. apart from a minority of racists, most would agree that some form of migration is fine – and asylum process needs to stay in place.

    However the numbers and methods of entry need to be figured out and we need to have a honest debate that that side has not been working for everyone – especially in England where overpopulation and infrastructure issues are most acute.

14. We are most expensive to the state as children and as pensioners. So adult immigrants do cost less in that way.

    Pressure on services, as someone else has said, this is scapegoating, the services are underfunded and aren’t growing to meet demand.

    The narrative works particularly well for two reasons. Firstly is that a lot of immigrants take jobs at the lower end of the pay scale and they live in cheaper/poorer areas. These two things direct affect the sort of person who is easily influenced by the tabloid papers.

    These is also the issue that they tend to drive down, or keep wages low. This was really poorly covered during the Brexit campaign which is odd because it is about the only benefit that would affect working class people. Why would an employer put wages up to attract more workers if there are people from abroad willing to do the work for less?

15. You mentioned that the lowered wages is offset by increased tax contributions enabling a higher welfare budget and social safety net. That’s a big part of the problem, the government keeps cutting all of that so most of what the lowest paid feel, is their low wages.

    Them the media goes ‘look at those evil foreigners stealing your jobs!’ and the lowest paid believe it.

16. It’s not just fear-mongering, it’s scapegoating.

    “Your pay isn’t low because of the sociopathic culture of the shareholder class driving a class war against the working and middle class, it’s low because the cleaners are Somali!”

17. Maybe the illegal immigration or those doing illegal activities.
    Most people I know in the UK are from other countries.
    They all work.
    Also look what happened when after brexit a lot of people left this country – staff shortages in all sectors, especially with low-paid jobs that a lot of brits would never do (not saying this is the only reason).

    Since coming to the UK 4 years ago, I always worked and paid my taxes. Never claimed any benefits whatsoever. So how exactly I would be hurting the economy I’m not sure.

18. The annoying thing is that the government could just write down exactly what sort of immigrants they want and enforce it. They could just legislate to that effect. They need it as a wedge issue just as their donors need migrant workers though. And if it’s never planned for then they’re always an *extra* pressure on the NHS.

19. Immigrant here, paying about 3k in taxes each month, getting nothing in return really.

20. I’m wondering why every single pub in my area is desperate for staff. Sure its minimum wage work, but always has been. I guess all the lovely Polish, Romanian, Hungarian etc lads and lasses that used to bolster the ranks have gone away for some strange reason.

21. Illegal Immigration does hurt the economy, these people will be working off the books, not paying taxes and enabling seedy employers.

22. Immigration is good for the economy because even though some will go on benefits, most work and this means more tax and a wealthier country. Migrants also populate sectors that are desperately short of workers.

    BUT

    Immigration creates more competition at work driving down conditions such as pay. It also drives up house prices and increases pressure on health care, schooling etc.

    Also values, what is right/wrong, polite/rude varies across cultures, this creates segregation and racism when immigration is high.

    So basically the government LOVE immigration BUT it’s BAD for most working class people!

23. No, but speaking from an immigrant background, the recent batch from Syria and Iraq over the past decade have done absolutely nothing in our local area but increase the supply of cannabis, hand car washes and “Turkish barbers”, which is very offensive to Turks here as none of them are Turks. But this is inconveinent, even coming from another Asian.

24. Set up English language hubs, help those that can’t communicate to learn to speak and then read English, accelerate that process and then you might reap the economic benefits.

25. >offset by the net contributions to the government budget which makes it easier for the Gov to provide welfare and essential services, which have a positive economic impact on these workers

    Is this a joke?

26. Scapegoating and lies. My company has been struggling to find staff for years and we still are. They will pay us money if we recruit a friend but we can’t cos there is nt enough people qualified. My local garage told me they were struggling to recruit car mechanics and they weren’t the only ones. When I worked in a local food manufacturing company’s HR. They had to go to Eastern Europe to get workers. At some point the government said they can only employ workers from abroad if they prove they can’t find anyone locally. Attempts to recruit locals failed. They even worked with the job centre where those unemployed were told to work there. If they lasted a month it was a miracle. They mostly left as fast as they came. And now the UK is recruiting foreigners again cos they can’t get the staff even after Brexit which was won on an immigration ticket.

    The biggest joke in this country will be if Rishi Sunak – the immigrant with an American citizenship- becomes the Prime Minister of a country with a government that’s spent years Scapegoating immigrants & is deporting immigrants to Ruwanda.

27. It’s not a problem with any logic. Immigration is a negative sum, we need more health care professionals to care for the numbers arriving.
    Any figures stating immigration is a benefit are skewed by a small number of massively wealthy people.
    If one of them has a net worth of £1 billion how many non contributing individuals can we have before that number becomes a deficit?

28. I don’t think any politician is claiming immigration hurts the economy.

    But immigration can hurt individual’s prosperity. In simple terms, more supply lowers prices. Take one look at states like the UAE or Singapore that outsource swathes of their labour to South Asian migrant labourers.

29. I think you should look at this from the point of view of a working class person in a town which has low social cohesion.

    Most people (like me) who think immigration is a good thing, are the one’s affected by it the least. I live in the suburbs, I commute to city centre, the immigrants I do come across are usually highly skilled.

    It is a different story if your on minimum wage, living in poor areas, and you have ‘enclaves’ and a us vs them mentality.

30. A certain subset of immigrants are *not great* for women’s safety. Many coming from parts of the Middle East and North Africa unfortunately have an ingrained/cultural disrespect for women, or at least as far as books by Ayaan Hirsi Ali and articles on Asian grooming gangs lead me to believe.

    Less safety at night is bad for the events/nightlife economy.

31. Basically this happens.

    Rich person: I need someone to do this job for me. It pays £20.

    Native: I’ll do it!

    Immigrant: I’ll do it for 19, cause it’s still better than what I had before.

    Rich person: this job now pays £19.

    The media/politicians: the immigrant brought the wage down.

    Me: No… The rich person brought the wage down to increase profit, but everyone’s ok with it because profit is good.

    Immigrant from a poorer country: I’ll do it for £18.

    It’s not immigrants that bring wages down. It’s just a natural consequence of living in a society that normalises the exploitation of poverty.

32. I think the case is more that immigration works but mass undocumented immigration doesn’t.

33. It’s not, but it depends where you live and how long you’ve observed the changes that have happened around you.

    Some things are better, some are worse, but change is very much apparent and most people don’t tend to like change.

34. The issue with the whole premise of your question is that you’ve lumped all “immigrants” together into a single box, as though we could categories different types of immigration.

    The same technique was used to silence people who real concerns about immigration, which could have been pacified, and well we know how that turned out.

    At an absolute minimum we there should be the following categories.

    1. Illegal Immigrants
    2. Legal
    1. Unskilled (e.g. crop picking)
    2. Low skilled (e.g. basic administration, entry level catering..)
    3. Skilled (e.g. trades)
    4. High Skilled (e.g. software engineers)
    5. Super Rich (e.g. Saudi prince)

    To think an illegal immigrant illegally working in a car wash has the same impact on the economy as Lawyer is just counter productive.

35. Its a multifaceted issue.
    Unless you stand to gain from globalisation it incentivises hiring people ready to walk into the role than to make measures to train British born citizens. Furthermore multi-culturalism can increase friction in communities. Not all Muslims, Africans and Jewish communities are integrated with local life. It would be naive to expect people to not be mistrustful and resistant to those unlike them.

    You are cherry picking data that supports your bias…

    Depending on industry like construction, logistics, warehouse work and care work many immigrants have frequently travelled to get work, they accept lower pay than British workers would. There is a watering down of skilled roles, especially in the trades. Why pay an electrcian qualified rates when you can train a team of immigrants to lash in containment or pull cables. Not all the data available can show the variety of problems high levels of immigration and wage stagnation.

36. For me it’s the fact. I would do a job full-time my wife might work have 2 children rent an over priced house struggling. Next door i could have 8 immigrants sharing same house living a very good life. To me it’s not fare one bit we can’t survive but they can. I know I sound bad. The last time I went to Bristol children’s hospital with daughter it was empty 2 hours later 2 English familys and ot was packed full of familys that couldn’t/wouldn’t speak English. That’s a burden right there. I know I’ll be called a Racist but I’m not just concerned about the UK.

37. If you genuinely want to learn about this pick up some economics textbooks and brush up on your calculus, and get reading. If that’s too much, read more accessible economic papers and books.

    Reddit isn’t going to give you a reliable or scholarly answer, at the very least go to an economics/economists sub if you’re genuinely curious

    Because this comment section is filled with Reddit sofa economists who probably have never actually studied the subject or the maths in their life

38. The debate is so polarized, it astounds me that some people are unable to have a nuanced argument. It is clear there are winners and losers from unrestricted immigration, and a person expressing that “there should be less immigration overall” almost immediately gets branded as racist and xenophobic by many people.

    To play Devil’s advocate, if all immigration is beneficial without question, why don’t we charter ships from around the world to bring willing people to the UK? We could arrange ships from everywhere; African countries, European countries, the US, South America etc. Whoever wants to live here can jump on one of these boats to ensure safe passage.

39. The problem is more and more people. So now we have not enough housing, so the solution becomes build more houses, and this just spirals up with no clear stated end. Combine this with better medicine etc enabling an aging population to live longer, again keeping the population going up and NHS costs high. So we can stop immigration, but that just supplies less tax payers or we cull the old. Which is not a thing. So I don’t have an answer but neither version works.

40. No, it’s not. Immigrants also hurt young white girls, as seen by all the brown Muslim men gang raping children. Could stand for less of them. A lot less. The government should work to deport immigrants already in the UK.

41. Now if you’re one of the huge number of low paid workers who has had a 0.5% drop in wages you’re likely to be easily swayed to dislike the situation.

    If you’re one of the higher laid people who are doing well out of the situation you’re lively to be all for it.

    For a minimum wage worker an extra 0.5% pay would equate to something like 900 quid a year. That’s a fairly substantial amount of money for each of them to be losing out on.

42. Immigrants lead to low wages and high house prices. Thus they hurt wage earners and people who want to buy houses.

    On the flip side, they help people who own houses and firms that pay wages.

    The economic net sum of all this might be positive, but there are distributional consequences, painful to some.

43. This is a left-wing liberal sub, don’t expect nuanced answers here.

    The reality is that people working low-skilled jobs have had their wages depressed for about a decade by immigration.

44. There are a couple of inaccuracies in this post.

    Firstly, this position isn’t confined to the right. There is a largish segment of left-wing thought that sees unrestricted immigration as a means for employers to keep wages low. This is the basis on which Jeremy Corbyn, for instance, opposed joining the EEC.

    Secondly, “immigrants hurt the economy” is an oversimplification that’s easy to present contrary evidence against, ie something of a straw man. “Immigrants distort the economy” is nearer the mark, and in any economic distortion there are winners and losers. Which particular group are winners and which are losers varies depending on the policy but you can always find a group who are disadvantaged.

45. Keeping wages down is enough for me, hard to see when you’re all right Jack, easier to call them racist and defend billionaires.

46. I find the debate regarding the burden on health and education services lacking detail.
    Do they mean the individual immigrant or the family. We are told immigrants have more children than native British.
    I guess the children born here would be British and maybe excluded from the figures. But in reality many immigrants perform low paid jobs and yet their families have the benefit of free at the point of delivery health, dental and education.

47. I could be talking out of my backside here, but I’ve always thought that any research around the issue is such a taboo subject that many researchers would be fearful about putting their names to a paper describing negative effects.

48. Well the issues with mass immigration stretch further than economics. My understanding is that the studies on the economic impact itself have found that the effect is neutral, some show slight positives and some slight negatives.
    The issue is that large numbers of people are coming into the country and moving to already deprived segregated communities so they don’t integrate, consequently their values differ greatly from the public at large (there are government studies supporting this from non white authors). They then feel increasingly isolated from their home culture and alienated from society is that is what encourages extremism, crime etc. Everyone in this sub will hate this comment because it’s incredibly left leaning but there are obvious integration issues in this country.

49. To be frank a lot of people don’t care about “the economy” or GDP. They care about their wages, their employment rights, their ease of finding a job and their housing costs.