Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I’ve been reading a lot of the topics about this issue on this sub lately, and I feel like I really need to say something. Maybe I’m screaming into the void here and this is dumb. I don’t know.

So recently, there’s been a lot of sports organizations in this country specifically banning trans women from participation in women’s sport, spurred on by Nadine Dorries big meeting with them last month, itself instigated by the much-publicized FINA ban. I’m going to start this by saying that I’m not going to deny that whether or not it’s fair for trans women who’ve undergone male puberty to participate in professional women’s sport is complicated, but that’s not what I want to talk about in this post.

Unlike the FINA ban (which I have my own issues with, but let’s stay focused), so far, all of this wave of UK-local bans – in Triathlon, Rugby, etc – have been absolutist insofar as they haven’t just banned participation in women’s sports based on whether or not the athlete has gone through male puberty and gained that potential advantage, but instead “sex assigned at birth”. In other words, even if you transitioned young and took puberty blockers, you’re still only allowed to play on male teams.

It’s not something a lot of people know about, so I wanna take a moment to explain that if you do take puberty blockers from the advent of tanner stage 2-4 (as recommended by WPATH) then you’re probably going to end up on the weaker end of women’s physiology, since certain types of musculoskeletal development won’t initiate until a little later than average, when you start HRT. This means that it is objectively _more_ dangerous and unfair on average for early transitioning trans women to participate in men’s sports than it is for cis women. If you’re playing something where build and physical strength is important, like rugby, you will at best drag your team down and at worst get seriously physically hurt. This means that these new rules are effectively a total ban from the sport for early transitioners for no quantifiable reason other than categorical purity.

I hope people can understand why I think this is obviously unfair, but that’s still not quite what is really frightening me about how casually people are accepting this stuff.

Because of this climate, a big knock-on affect is that schools – even ones that were previously considered good for trans kids – are now also becoming reluctant to let trans girls participate in girl’s sports, and there’s talk of an outright policy ban. I went through this when I was a kid, before the wave of acceptance in the 2010’s overhauled a bunch of policies for a while. The thing is that what I said above also applies in this context: If a child can’t play with one sex because they haven’t had the right physical growth and it’s dangerous, and they can’t play the _other_ sex because they have the wrong chromosomes, the result is that they don’t get to play at all. They get stuck in a classroom somewhere every week and are told to study, or maybe to run laps around the field.

I really can’t overstate how bad this is for a person in terms of their relationship with athleticism. If you can’t do sports at school, you’re not going to get into it as an adult even casually. You’re going to develop bad habits when it comes to your physical health that are basically lifelong, and probably carry some degree of resentment from being excluded from such a big part of school life altogether. And this isn’t even for a _good reason._

The poll from YouGov a week ago showed that the public is becoming extremely opposed to trans women participating in sport, but rather then treating it as something open-and-shut, I really beg people to have some nuance in how they think about the issue rather than just cheering these changes on uncritically. Even if this ultimately affects a tiny amount of people, it will impact their lives for the worse while serving literally no one.

(I probably won’t be able to reply to this because the sub’s algorithm thinks I’m sus when it comes to ++ threads.)

EDIT: Like I figured, I seem not to be able to reply anymore. I can’t really begin to address all the stuff people are saying like this, but there’s one person spreading off-topic misinformation about the harmfulness of trans healthcare for kids in the comments, which I can’t help but respond to kinda personally? So if nothing else I thought I’d link [this.](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/gender-affirming-care-is-not-experimental-part-ii/)

34 comments

  2. One thing worth noting, and it may just be media representation in this matter, is that you only ever see this argument from the male-trans female perspective, I for one have never even heard of a female-trans male participating in the male sports theatre. Im not saying that it doesn’t occur, I’m sure it does. Maybe if more emphasis were to be placed on the trans females accomplishments in cis male sports then some of the vitriol would be taken out of the whole issue.

    Currently we’re spoon fed stories about trans female swimmers, trans female athletes, trans female weightlifters, trans female mma fighters all doing well thus feeding the narrative they have a distinct biological advantage, if more stores about trans males outperforming cis males then people’s attitudes would change

  3. I actually really appreciate you taking the time to write this. I don’t know much about the topic and I’m sure others don’t, either. Thanks for putting yourself out there and I really hope you don’t get any trolls.

  4. Yeah. I’ve a lot of thoughts on the whole “debate”, but you sum things up nicely.

    —

    I also think it’s ridiculous that the government are coming out and meddling in how sporting organisations operate. Not sure how that fits into the conservative ideology of small government…

  7. Off topic but surely the trans issue is over represented massively in all forms by competing sides when looked at purely demographically. I would guess that the number of left handed Hindus in Great Britain will be in same ball park so why is this topic so endemic?

  9. Trans women are not “banned from sport”.

    They are banned from *competitive* sport. They can play badminton, tennis and golf, swim, weight lift, run… Do most sports they want with whoever they want.

    It seems to be a key difference to me.

  10. Thanks for the detailed post.

    I know that the Rugby Football Union has recently changed their policy after it found that determining eligibility on a case by case basis was too complex. Thinking about what you said, when a person transitions is there some sort of documentation that defines what Tanner stage they were at or something like that? Most youth rugby clubs are run by volunteers, mums and dads who don’t have the ability to make individual judgement calls on the puberty point of transition. Perhaps this is another example where what science can do and what can be done down at the park is very different?

    Rugby can be played mixed sex up until age 12, I’m not sure what age you have to be to transition but the ban doesn’t mean the sport is unaccessible to children (a minor consolation).

  11. Agreed a lack of nuance is a problem.

    There’s way too many just calling for a blanket ban in all trans women in all sport. Which is just madness.

    Sports governing bodies have been grappling with drawing the line for who classes as a woman for sports for decades, away from conservative identity politics.

    The new wave of absolute bans just shit all over this and do nought to solve the actual problems of intersex people and borderline cases.

    Not to mention the potential negative effects on trans peoples health of banning them even from the most casual of amateur sports. It shows how fucked up some people’s thinking is that they can only think of winning as the entire point of sport rather than the more usual socialisation, keeping in shape, having fun, etc…

    And yes. This absolutism is very much a anti trans problem. The opposite absolute of let any guy just declare himself a woman on Friday night and turn out for a woman’s team on Saturday is similarly insane but very rarely actually seen in the wild.

  13. I understand your point but to start addressing them would need ‘tiers’ or grades of trans etc and I’m sure that’s not something you’d want either. I did not know that it was even legal to get involved with blockers at such a young age so I’ve learned that too.

    The majority of the trans women that have been entering women’s sports in the last few years (and dominating them) have a significant physical advantage so it’s only right we get bans in now and save those sports before we talk about nuances like those you raised. It’s a disservice that it took so long in some cases (cycling and weightlifting are two).

  14. Thanks for adding the extra nauance. Hadn’t realised that it was for pre pubescent trans women as well as post puberty. Nor that schools were reluctant to allow participation despite it only being for competitive elite sport. Certainly if you entered an mass participation triathlon they wouldn’t care until it reached the point you were qualifying for and winning stuff.

    I think this is going to be messy until the science and society sorts its self out. Until then I wish you all the best.

  15. Can I ask what you think is wrong with [this scenario](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/iyyWcysvPQlia53m0-bIrXbCp8t4GGOIWRtVLnUDB73AwNXRFQv5wv88XDi1H1n4-tPru0kaOb3QDo_zxgcqahp_-k_lrEwgEZMvPvWjcNmGSf4PF02kE0aJW3k7fkXMSaiOzeyO)?

    Four male athletes competing together, one just happens to not identify as a man. And that’s cool, more power to them. We could change the names of the categories to ‘female’ and ‘open’ if that helps.

    I think that the only objection to this approach would be if you consider the sense of validation that some transwomen seek from participation in women’s sport to be more important than sport being fair – i.e. if you centre the feelings of male people over the material needs of female people.

    IMO a truly inclusiveness approach would be to embrace and celebrate diverse gender identities and expression in male athletes.

    Re. your point about transition at a young age and school sports – there is an enormous range of strength and ability amongst boys of any age. At 15 some are scrawny little kids and some are almost fully developed men. Even a trans identified kid who transitioned early fits within this distribution and could/should be accommodated. What about boys with disabilities or developmental conditions – should they also play with girls because they are ‘too weak’ to play with the boys? Girls’ sports are not a leftover bin for males who are considered insufficiently masculine according to gender norms. Boys’ sports need to cater for *all* males. And there is no basic human right to *excel* at sport – many of us don’t! The affect on your athletic performance is just one factor among many that should be taken into account by anyone considering medical transition.

    I can see the appeal of focussing on male puberty like FINA has done rather than just being male, since that is where the majority of the advantage is conferred. However, to the extent that a policy like that might encourage the medical transition of children and adolescents, it is irresponsible.

    In light of available evidence, gender reassignment of minors is an experimental practice with considerable risks, unknown long term effects, and which sets kids on a path of lifelong medicalisation. And there is no diagnostic criteria to determine which children presenting with gender dysphoria would desist and grow up to be happy in their sexed body without any medical intervention.

    As more evidence is coming out and activist disinformation is being more effectively challenged, many clinicians are now starting to row back on medical intervention for this cohort and are recommending instead a first-line treatment of psychosocial support and, as necessary, gender-explorative therapy and treatment for co-morbid psychiatric disorders. (See [recent statements by the Finnish and Swedish health authorities](https://lisaselindavis.substack.com/p/letter-from-finland-and-sweden?utm_source=pocket_mylist))

  17. Thank you for sharing, but if i’m being totally honest i’m not sure Tories care? They’re using you and other issues as a means of spreading misinformation and distracting from other issues that they are failing on. Hoping that they can weaponize the same shitty behaviour the US has been enduring, here.

    The modern right-wing’er is all about opinion over facts.

  18. OP, what do you think the solution is? The way I see it we either get rid of segregation in sports, segregate based on biologic sex, segregate based on self identified gender or segregate based on physical ability. If the later how would that work given that the point of sport is already to determine physical ability which also varies within a person’s life/career

  19. Thank you for your perspective. I generally feel that transwomen who haven’t experienced male puberty should be fine to compete with/against other women.

    The concerns I have about transwomen who have gone through male puberty relate to fairness and safety (in contact sports). I also recognise it’s a complex issue and that it’s unfortunate a marginalised group would have to lose some of their rights to protect the rights of others.

  21. You may or may not have an intelligent point, but the moment I read the word “cis” it’s like a mute button. I’ll never bother caring about anything said by anyone pushing that word. Normal people don’t need a new label.

  22. I feel like the thing to remember is that elite sport is a tiny % of the trans issue. People talk about sport because it is difficult to get fairness on but remember this is like talking about car depreciation and constantly talking about vintage cars, it’s a tiny % of the issue cherry picked because it doesn’t fit with the rest of the issue. We don’t have to all agree on elite sports because it’s really difficult but we shouldn’t let bad actors constantly turn the trans discussion to this tiny part of the big issue, the big issue is that trans people are human beings and they need to be supported.

    TL:DR don’t let people constantly turn the trans discussion to elite sports, they do this because it’s a difficult subject to treat fairly but most trans issues aren’t difficult, treat trans people as human beings and support them.

  23. Children shouldn’t be taking hormone blockers or hormone treatments anyway so it’s kind of irrelevant really.

  25. I will say that this is a very complicated issue that should be left up to people qualified (doctors and sport scientist) not people involved in politics.

  27. Trans people have much bigger issues than sports participation – I know it’s not a very popular view but I think sports is a bad hill for trans people and allies to die on, there’s too much nuance in it and it attracts people from both sides making shitty arguments. Sort out healthcare access instead, it’s a much more clear-cut moral issue and far more likely to get public support. The trans women in sports debate is playing right into the hands of bigots and terfs; give it a decade and try again. I don’t like the way the world is, but you have to be realistic about what you want to achieve and the best way to get there.

  29. In regards to sport in a competitive arena it should be about your biological sex. Period.

    I know that sucks for trans people and I wish we could do something about it but it’s just the way it is…. It can’t be anything different.

  30. Isn’t sport itself essentially unfair. It seeks out the gifted and celebrates their abilities but those gifts are largely genetic (putting aside the whole gender issue). Regardless of how hard I train and dedicate myself to high jump, the scar on my forehead attests itself to my genetic limitations. I’m not tall and so will not be a swimmer and no one will ever watch me play basketball. I’m not strong so will never lift weights. I’m just average and unremarkable in pretty much everything. Is it unfair? I could think I just haven’t found my sport but that’d be delusional. I was listening to a podcast about the technology of timing sprints and how to assess a jump start when performance and victory is measured in single milliseconds. Is it time to realise that we can’t keep improving the 100m time forever and that records can’t be broken endlessly. Sport is supposed to be entertainment and pleasure for both the audience and participants and being out our best and the argument over gender based advantage seems to miss the whole point.

  31. Very interesting reading. Mostly interested in the performance side of things and the age of transitioning is hardly mentioned.

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