The magic of statistics…. would be interesting to have more statistics like
* discrimination to foreigners in general
* discrimination versus people that don’t speak German
…
I mean, I am a foreigner with limited German (B1/B2) and I feel discriminated too. And I’m “white” though my skin color is probably closer to “latino”.
For example, when I was looking for an apartment, I once was ranked 12th by the owner even if I could definitely afford the place (rent was 1500, me and my wife made around 16000), we dont have animals, we work for a major company and I have been there 16 years…. and I’m French (it’s not like if I came from a mysterious country they never heard about).
Its not race in Germany its where your from. Germans are discriminating other Germans, ever live in Bayern. Plus Germany doesnt have a load of other ethnic groups, turks, Hispanics, Asians, etc…If so they among themselves.
I am sure racism and discrimination against black people in Germany is undeniable thing. Although I am not so sure if it is to this extend and self-reported data can be reliable to assess the numbers.
Source: non-white immigrant sociologist living in Germany.
interesting statistic
However, the subjective feeling is shown here, which does not always reflect the truth, regardless of the topic.
Respondents were asked about “perceived” frequency of discrimination independently of their personal experiences with discrimination.
​
The german source states: “Rund 6000 von ihnen haben das in einer Online-Befragung so zu Protokollben. Die anonyme, freiwillige Umfrage lief vom 20. Juli bis zum 6.
September 2020. ”
So we have an anonymous and voluntary online poll with a sample size of 6000.
I really can’t imagine taking this seriously because this is nowhere near a representative study.
I’d have personally assumed that the experienced discrimination in the Justice System and from Authorities would be way less, but way higher for the housing market and security personnel, but well, seems like I am wrong.
Tbh, I smell a self selecting bias in that data.
This is missing “entering a club as an all black male group”.
Am I living in a different country??? I have had a total of 4 or 5 incidents involving racism in my entire life … that’s 21 divided by 5, giving me about 1 incident every 4 years.
Can we stop treating online polls as serious? That’s the same source that elected Kim Jung Un as sexiest Man alive.
I do understand that it is difficult to get numbers as for good historical reasons it is difficult to get complete lists of fellow black citizens. But that does not mean we should just rely on unreliable data.
Comments here show that people will come up with any obscure reason to devalue an opinion that doesn’t suit their biased narrative about lack of racism in Germany. No concern about the fact that this survey, despite its inaccuracies, points to a deep rooted problem that should be addressed. All these armchair sociologists fail to see the biased evaluation of the study in this very comment section.
These people who keep dissing on immigrants for living in their own bubbles don’t realize the bubbles they’ve created around themselves that blind them to a clear problem that never really left their society.
Being a German that also grew up here and shit I can attest that there is a lot of latent and even quite some overt racism in our people, even though a lot of them don’t want to admit it or see it as funny to use the word “nigga” or “Kanacke”.
We had a new black employee who after 2 weeks wanted to walk over people that were there 5 years+ and were not only doing better work but also did not try to create internal conflicts.
Everything was “racism” towards him. Total Bullshit. Entitled.
Other case treated fairly, got into better position and then immediately abuses that position to do no work, listen to music on his phone and not doing anything.
So this “perceived” thing says nothing objectively.
Speak no german = people dont like it = makes you feel discrminated
speak german = people like it = all good in the hood
truth be told i couldnt care less where you come from or how you look but the attitude important. people immigrate to germany since forever and the ones who integrate dont face such problems. basically everything regarding foreigners got tainted since 2015.
Conversation I had in Stuttgart circa 99/00
Me and my pal Doug (a black American man) checking out wohnung rentals for Doug.
Landlord (white): “Here is the garden, here’s where you keep the trash cans…etc.. etc…also, I don’t rent to foreigners.”
Doug: “But, I’m a foreigner.”
Landlord: “Oh, but that’s different.”
This guy’s vibe was black folks from African nations? No good. Black folks from the United States? Fine.
It’s a racist country to begin with, and it hardly could change.
I’m Asian and always receive discrimination at the supermarket or even the University cafeteria. If you say its because of their hardship doing the minimum-wage job, they why is it that they are extremely polite with a German-looking person just 5 seconds before treating me with a heap of scorn accompanying by a frozen stare rivaling that of Antartica?
I have to say that very many responses here make this survey way more believable than I thought at first glance.
It’s appalling really.
It would be nice to have those numbers compared with other socioeconomic indicators like education, income, etc and see for example how many black people with high education/income still feel discriminated when apartment hunting.
Also it would be nice to have the questioned rate their experience from something like “passive, but noticeable racism” to “blantant racism” (ofc in more scientific terms).
As it is right now, it looks like the experience with racism is pretty much the same accross all these fields. For many of these categories I can imagine that a lot of black people in Germany have made very bad experiences, but for example when I thinking about the category “Education” I’m thinking of young black students getting treated passively racist / incensitive by school teachers with old mindsets who think it’s ok to ask “the black kid” about foreign cultures, when in reality they grow up in Germany as well. But maybe thats not at all what the questioned were thinking about and instead they were thinking of much more blantant racism they experienced in the education system.
Still, it’s always very interesting to data from the affecteds position and ofc these results paint a pretty bad picture either way!
Looks like bs to be honest
ITT: White Germans / Europeans talking about how this poll shouldn’t be taken seriously because of X, Y, and Z and essentially trying to downplay the racism and microaggressions that minorities have to deal with in this country.
Holy shit, the majority of people in this thread are racist as fuck and completely oblivious to it to boot. I don’t know what that says about Germany as a whole, but it’s certainly not a good look.
“It’s the people not the system”…
A system that is run by people…
Everything just sucks.
Just want to share my story of being discriminated here, while we’re at it.
I’m Asian and I could speak better than average German, and I always approach them in German (never in English), even though I clearly have an accent. The discrimination I receive is that they never say “Hi, Hallo” or “schoenen Tag” or even “Tschuess”, even though I always make sure to greet them with those phrases. They barely look at me, and when they do, it’s often the most soul-piercing stare that penetrates through my eyes.
One epic story is when I was going with a friend (F), and we were about to use the stair after an old lady. She turned back and shouted at us “ZURUECK BLEIBEN CHING” and we were aghast. Then my friend started bursting into tears, and as much sad and terrified as I was, I tried my best to comfort her. Even though at that moment, I felt my soul just left my body and I didn’t know how *should* I respond to that.
I should add that there is one clerk at Rewe that is always nice to me and to everybody. She is of Turkish origin, though. The best “native” I met in Germany after 2 years living here are always Turk-Deutscher. Props to them, they make Germany more livable for foreigners.
The reaction to this poll sheds more light on the problem than the poll itself ever could.
As a brown person in Germany, I can certainly say that I feel it. My fav comes from old german white ladies when Im walking past them down the street… Like bish, I don’t want you or your dog.
Can confirm even without the skin color, tried to get a apartment and was told upfront that the Landlord doesn’t like “Ausländer” just because of my name. I look and talk like a 120% buerocrat german.
I wont say we dont have racism here, but when its so terrible, why do we have so much immigrants and still lot of people that literally risk their lifes to come here? Our media make everything that isnt sucking poc peoples dick to a huge rasicm problem. In fact you cant name more than 5 countrys, that are more friendly to migrants. You will always have a minority of racist or homophobic retards in every society, but there is no need to make them bigger than they already are.
No racism in germany, only einzelfälle
Talking as someone with only second-hand experience, I do not think this survey is unrealistic.
I’ve been doing volunteer work with international students for a good amount of time. Many of them do end up with the perception that they are not equally treated, and this is not to be discounted.
I’ve seen international groups treated harsher by security and police, I’ve seen them excluded in university work, I’ve heard about their problems trying to rent out a flat.
While some of these issues are amplified by skin color, the main problem that seems prevalent is the simple fact of non-Germanness. If you don’t speak PERFECT German, you’ll be treated differently. If you’re looking foreign, people will be more likely to stare, and less likely to be willing to approach you and engage with you on equal terms.
The main problem is that the lack of diversity in Germany, in combination with Germany’s history, has made Germans hesitant to approach people that seem foreign. Stereotyping is one giant problem there. Many have never had to engage with people from different backgrounds, and then they often fuck up if they do.
Genuine interest from a German may also quickly be read as culturally inappropriate, while stemming from cluelessness. Germans are very direct, and impatient, which may be read as rudeness. And many Germans don’t even try to engage, leaving you with the German stare in your neck.
I’d personally not call it racism, but rather xenophobia. In both senses of the word. For one, there’s the fear of the unknown, but also often disdain born from stereotypes. It’s insecurity paired with cluelessness, which makes people go back to stereotyping. And amplified by the fear of being seen as a Nazi, it makes for a very awkward atmosphere that foreigners have to suffer through in Germany.
The silver lining is, that once Germans get to know you as a person, it’ll be a lot more pleasant to be around them. If you’re fighting for your integration into German culture, you’ll be met with a lot of respect and help. But it is an uphill battle to get to that point, which is why many people give up, and rather form a sub-culture in Germany than try to be part of Germany as a whole. Which then in turn keeps Germans in their nice, safe bubble, where foreign people are simply a curiosity to be stared at, and to whom you’ll not need to have any point of contact.
It’s a whole-ass problem which I don’t know how to fix. Hell, even after several years of extensive contact with loads of different cultures, I still sometimes catch myself judging people for things that are simply happening due to cultural differences and getting annoyed.
Not just black. Im a German, born here, habe a PhD and it’s such a pain in the ass just because I have an Arab touch (im half half). Since I always had problems im now inclined to sign with Dr. Just to have a chance to get an apartment. It’s ridiculous.
Without wanting to relativize what this census is specifically trying to say (Racism does undoubtedly exist in Germany), it’s an objectively bad census. Online only, only 6000 votes and that over such a long time to collect data, and anonymous? That’s a recipe for non-credibility.
32 comments
[Source English](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-30/black-people-in-german-survey-report-extensive-discrimination)
[Source 2 German](https://www.dw.com/de/afrozensus-verbreiteter-rassismus-gegen-schwarze-in-deutschland/a-59977715)
Can’t say I’m surprised.
The magic of statistics…. would be interesting to have more statistics like
* discrimination to foreigners in general
* discrimination versus people that don’t speak German
…
I mean, I am a foreigner with limited German (B1/B2) and I feel discriminated too. And I’m “white” though my skin color is probably closer to “latino”.
For example, when I was looking for an apartment, I once was ranked 12th by the owner even if I could definitely afford the place (rent was 1500, me and my wife made around 16000), we dont have animals, we work for a major company and I have been there 16 years…. and I’m French (it’s not like if I came from a mysterious country they never heard about).
Its not race in Germany its where your from. Germans are discriminating other Germans, ever live in Bayern. Plus Germany doesnt have a load of other ethnic groups, turks, Hispanics, Asians, etc…If so they among themselves.
I am sure racism and discrimination against black people in Germany is undeniable thing. Although I am not so sure if it is to this extend and self-reported data can be reliable to assess the numbers.
Source: non-white immigrant sociologist living in Germany.
interesting statistic
However, the subjective feeling is shown here, which does not always reflect the truth, regardless of the topic.
Respondents were asked about “perceived” frequency of discrimination independently of their personal experiences with discrimination.
​
The german source states: “Rund 6000 von ihnen haben das in einer Online-Befragung so zu Protokollben. Die anonyme, freiwillige Umfrage lief vom 20. Juli bis zum 6.
September 2020. ”
So we have an anonymous and voluntary online poll with a sample size of 6000.
I really can’t imagine taking this seriously because this is nowhere near a representative study.
I’d have personally assumed that the experienced discrimination in the Justice System and from Authorities would be way less, but way higher for the housing market and security personnel, but well, seems like I am wrong.
Tbh, I smell a self selecting bias in that data.
This is missing “entering a club as an all black male group”.
Am I living in a different country??? I have had a total of 4 or 5 incidents involving racism in my entire life … that’s 21 divided by 5, giving me about 1 incident every 4 years.
Can we stop treating online polls as serious? That’s the same source that elected Kim Jung Un as sexiest Man alive.
I do understand that it is difficult to get numbers as for good historical reasons it is difficult to get complete lists of fellow black citizens. But that does not mean we should just rely on unreliable data.
Comments here show that people will come up with any obscure reason to devalue an opinion that doesn’t suit their biased narrative about lack of racism in Germany. No concern about the fact that this survey, despite its inaccuracies, points to a deep rooted problem that should be addressed. All these armchair sociologists fail to see the biased evaluation of the study in this very comment section.
These people who keep dissing on immigrants for living in their own bubbles don’t realize the bubbles they’ve created around themselves that blind them to a clear problem that never really left their society.
Being a German that also grew up here and shit I can attest that there is a lot of latent and even quite some overt racism in our people, even though a lot of them don’t want to admit it or see it as funny to use the word “nigga” or “Kanacke”.
We had a new black employee who after 2 weeks wanted to walk over people that were there 5 years+ and were not only doing better work but also did not try to create internal conflicts.
Everything was “racism” towards him. Total Bullshit. Entitled.
Other case treated fairly, got into better position and then immediately abuses that position to do no work, listen to music on his phone and not doing anything.
So this “perceived” thing says nothing objectively.
Speak no german = people dont like it = makes you feel discrminated
speak german = people like it = all good in the hood
truth be told i couldnt care less where you come from or how you look but the attitude important. people immigrate to germany since forever and the ones who integrate dont face such problems. basically everything regarding foreigners got tainted since 2015.
Conversation I had in Stuttgart circa 99/00
Me and my pal Doug (a black American man) checking out wohnung rentals for Doug.
Landlord (white): “Here is the garden, here’s where you keep the trash cans…etc.. etc…also, I don’t rent to foreigners.”
Doug: “But, I’m a foreigner.”
Landlord: “Oh, but that’s different.”
This guy’s vibe was black folks from African nations? No good. Black folks from the United States? Fine.
It’s a racist country to begin with, and it hardly could change.
I’m Asian and always receive discrimination at the supermarket or even the University cafeteria. If you say its because of their hardship doing the minimum-wage job, they why is it that they are extremely polite with a German-looking person just 5 seconds before treating me with a heap of scorn accompanying by a frozen stare rivaling that of Antartica?
I have to say that very many responses here make this survey way more believable than I thought at first glance.
It’s appalling really.
It would be nice to have those numbers compared with other socioeconomic indicators like education, income, etc and see for example how many black people with high education/income still feel discriminated when apartment hunting.
Also it would be nice to have the questioned rate their experience from something like “passive, but noticeable racism” to “blantant racism” (ofc in more scientific terms).
As it is right now, it looks like the experience with racism is pretty much the same accross all these fields. For many of these categories I can imagine that a lot of black people in Germany have made very bad experiences, but for example when I thinking about the category “Education” I’m thinking of young black students getting treated passively racist / incensitive by school teachers with old mindsets who think it’s ok to ask “the black kid” about foreign cultures, when in reality they grow up in Germany as well. But maybe thats not at all what the questioned were thinking about and instead they were thinking of much more blantant racism they experienced in the education system.
Still, it’s always very interesting to data from the affecteds position and ofc these results paint a pretty bad picture either way!
Looks like bs to be honest
ITT: White Germans / Europeans talking about how this poll shouldn’t be taken seriously because of X, Y, and Z and essentially trying to downplay the racism and microaggressions that minorities have to deal with in this country.
Holy shit, the majority of people in this thread are racist as fuck and completely oblivious to it to boot. I don’t know what that says about Germany as a whole, but it’s certainly not a good look.
“It’s the people not the system”…
A system that is run by people…
Everything just sucks.
Just want to share my story of being discriminated here, while we’re at it.
I’m Asian and I could speak better than average German, and I always approach them in German (never in English), even though I clearly have an accent. The discrimination I receive is that they never say “Hi, Hallo” or “schoenen Tag” or even “Tschuess”, even though I always make sure to greet them with those phrases. They barely look at me, and when they do, it’s often the most soul-piercing stare that penetrates through my eyes.
One epic story is when I was going with a friend (F), and we were about to use the stair after an old lady. She turned back and shouted at us “ZURUECK BLEIBEN CHING” and we were aghast. Then my friend started bursting into tears, and as much sad and terrified as I was, I tried my best to comfort her. Even though at that moment, I felt my soul just left my body and I didn’t know how *should* I respond to that.
I should add that there is one clerk at Rewe that is always nice to me and to everybody. She is of Turkish origin, though. The best “native” I met in Germany after 2 years living here are always Turk-Deutscher. Props to them, they make Germany more livable for foreigners.
The reaction to this poll sheds more light on the problem than the poll itself ever could.
As a brown person in Germany, I can certainly say that I feel it. My fav comes from old german white ladies when Im walking past them down the street… Like bish, I don’t want you or your dog.
Can confirm even without the skin color, tried to get a apartment and was told upfront that the Landlord doesn’t like “Ausländer” just because of my name. I look and talk like a 120% buerocrat german.
I wont say we dont have racism here, but when its so terrible, why do we have so much immigrants and still lot of people that literally risk their lifes to come here? Our media make everything that isnt sucking poc peoples dick to a huge rasicm problem. In fact you cant name more than 5 countrys, that are more friendly to migrants. You will always have a minority of racist or homophobic retards in every society, but there is no need to make them bigger than they already are.
No racism in germany, only einzelfälle
Talking as someone with only second-hand experience, I do not think this survey is unrealistic.
I’ve been doing volunteer work with international students for a good amount of time. Many of them do end up with the perception that they are not equally treated, and this is not to be discounted.
I’ve seen international groups treated harsher by security and police, I’ve seen them excluded in university work, I’ve heard about their problems trying to rent out a flat.
While some of these issues are amplified by skin color, the main problem that seems prevalent is the simple fact of non-Germanness. If you don’t speak PERFECT German, you’ll be treated differently. If you’re looking foreign, people will be more likely to stare, and less likely to be willing to approach you and engage with you on equal terms.
The main problem is that the lack of diversity in Germany, in combination with Germany’s history, has made Germans hesitant to approach people that seem foreign. Stereotyping is one giant problem there. Many have never had to engage with people from different backgrounds, and then they often fuck up if they do.
Genuine interest from a German may also quickly be read as culturally inappropriate, while stemming from cluelessness. Germans are very direct, and impatient, which may be read as rudeness. And many Germans don’t even try to engage, leaving you with the German stare in your neck.
I’d personally not call it racism, but rather xenophobia. In both senses of the word. For one, there’s the fear of the unknown, but also often disdain born from stereotypes. It’s insecurity paired with cluelessness, which makes people go back to stereotyping. And amplified by the fear of being seen as a Nazi, it makes for a very awkward atmosphere that foreigners have to suffer through in Germany.
The silver lining is, that once Germans get to know you as a person, it’ll be a lot more pleasant to be around them. If you’re fighting for your integration into German culture, you’ll be met with a lot of respect and help. But it is an uphill battle to get to that point, which is why many people give up, and rather form a sub-culture in Germany than try to be part of Germany as a whole. Which then in turn keeps Germans in their nice, safe bubble, where foreign people are simply a curiosity to be stared at, and to whom you’ll not need to have any point of contact.
It’s a whole-ass problem which I don’t know how to fix. Hell, even after several years of extensive contact with loads of different cultures, I still sometimes catch myself judging people for things that are simply happening due to cultural differences and getting annoyed.
Not just black. Im a German, born here, habe a PhD and it’s such a pain in the ass just because I have an Arab touch (im half half). Since I always had problems im now inclined to sign with Dr. Just to have a chance to get an apartment. It’s ridiculous.
Without wanting to relativize what this census is specifically trying to say (Racism does undoubtedly exist in Germany), it’s an objectively bad census. Online only, only 6000 votes and that over such a long time to collect data, and anonymous? That’s a recipe for non-credibility.