Not surprised. German intelligence services were never the pride of Germany
He ain’t wrong but it is not exclusive to Germany, but rather Europe as a whole tbh.
The 5-eyes had all said Russia was invading and had shut down their embassies in Kyiv while nations like France were calling them out for it, and saying they are overreacting. Then France proceeded to fire their spy chief over “failure”.
Likewise, Denmark’s intelligence agencies also trusted America over their own government during the NSA spy scandal. The fact is the CIA just has a better grip, they just announced yesterday they know 24 political parties that take donations from Putin in Europe and so on.
The CIA however does not focus on Europe a lot and prioritizes it’s resources to other regions like South America. Nonetheless if they really wanted, they could influence regional affairs in Europe for years to come. After all, it was the CIA and MI6 who successfully established listening posts in East Berlin and intercepted countless messages from KGB assets in the area, poking deep holes into the iron curtain.
The gist of the article is that there are many good people in the German Intelligence, but that the Service as a whole is too bureaucratic and ineffective.
But the main part is the lack of focus on Russia due to the German Government’s Ostpolitik:
>One got the impression that they were so lax about Russia because they were afraid of finding out something they didn’t want to see. Because then maybe they should have done something. And they knew that the Chancellery and the German government did not want that.
Idk why the agency even exists if they have zero information about war on European soil — especially from Russia of all countries. Like y’all had one job.
Daaaaaaaaamn
Kinda obvious that German politicians don’t like to work with American intelligence since they hacked Merkels phone and and did major surveillance breaches against German law… But ye.. German intelligence unfortunately is limited by politicians
Chief of German Navy made this comment a couple of days before the invasion:
>”What he really wants is respect,” the vice admiral said, speaking in English in remarks that were posted on a video on YouTube.
>”And, my God, giving someone respect is low cost, even no cost. … It is easy to give him the respect he really demands – and probably also deserves,” Schönbach said, calling Russia an old and important country.
>Schönbach said Russia’s actions in Ukraine needed to be addressed, but added that “the Crimea Peninsula is gone: It will never come back – this is a fact.”
Luckily, he had to resign due to this. I’m against emotional Germany bashing, because the Government(s) had a decades-long erroneous Ostpolitik, but there is some serious soul-searching to be done due to this. And statements like this one are a symptom of how deep the myopic view of Putin’s Russia went.
I believe Germany needs to take a much more aggressive and proactive approach to arming and helping Ukraine. It needs to make up for this.
Germany is a shame after WWII. Country without character.
This is nothing new and maybe part of the system.
BND and Verfassungsschutz are treated like normal administrative officials. No “unlimited budget” like NSA. No exemptions from laws like the CIA. No “license to kill” as 007. Not even allowed to travel without permission – and if you travel to a conference you have the travel reimbursement by sending paper receipts to a secret address via post.
These positions have been cut down in budget rounds like the German army or any other administrative branch. They work like in the 1980s, salary is low.
Who works for them? Like cops they do not have the best or brightest. They take who is not clearly dumb and has enough motivation to play spy or cop. Take this in every level in the organization and you’ll see what we have.
Lessons from the CIA on arrogance, top r/nottheonion material, that.
I mean, can anyone blame us for not trusting our intelligence services after the Gestapo and the Stasi. Not even counting the hiring of ex SS, Gestapo and Wehrmacht personnel.
Has everyone already forgotten about the whole V-Mann disaster? Or more recently, Hans-Georg Maaßen?
Don’t trust your secret services people, those guys whatever they’ll get away with. So if you don’t want them to sell drugs to your populace to raise money for a terrorist-organization, make sure you still control them, not the other way around.
Americans lecturing others about arrogance, lmao
This is true
not enough guantánamos for their taste? not enough secret flights? not enough coupes? not enough torture?
I’m imagining some German spies bumbling around eastern Europe ‘Allo ‘allo style.
Sure, maybe, but I’m sure they never throw paper in the plastic bin. Very thoughtful people.
The CIA is the same agency that basically kidnapped a German citizen without a proper reason.
He was than flown to Afghanistan where he was held at a black site and routinely interrogated, beaten, strip-searched, sodomized, and subjected to other cruel forms of inhumane and degrading treatment and torture.
Given the former Head of the Verfassungsschutz being a right wing Nutter, I expected little else.While I presume that and the NSU affair to be exceptions to the Norm, we just don’t have the Cultural or political Basis for effective Intel Agencies.
Likely never will.
Useless German spies has been a long standing tradition for over a century.
I’m not exactly shocked that they didn’t want to. The BfV had (and probably still has) extensive contact to AfD and other far-right groups, and as we all know, they kinda stan hard for Putin.
They also massivly failed in Kabul. The German embassy was basicly calling Berlin that the Taliban were going to take over the city very soon and the German government choose to rely on the BND, which was a massive mistake.
A huge problem is the general attitude of taking it save, in a secret service. Basicly you get promoted by not having done anything wrong, which is a bad approach in this case. It has to be who delivers results.
​
Thats also the big difference between the Bundeswehr and the BND. The Bundeswehr has well trained soldiers, but lacks proper weapons. The BND is just bad.
24 comments
*Sypher*. Hmm.
Not surprised. German intelligence services were never the pride of Germany
He ain’t wrong but it is not exclusive to Germany, but rather Europe as a whole tbh.
The 5-eyes had all said Russia was invading and had shut down their embassies in Kyiv while nations like France were calling them out for it, and saying they are overreacting. Then France proceeded to fire their spy chief over “failure”.
Likewise, Denmark’s intelligence agencies also trusted America over their own government during the NSA spy scandal. The fact is the CIA just has a better grip, they just announced yesterday they know 24 political parties that take donations from Putin in Europe and so on.
The CIA however does not focus on Europe a lot and prioritizes it’s resources to other regions like South America. Nonetheless if they really wanted, they could influence regional affairs in Europe for years to come. After all, it was the CIA and MI6 who successfully established listening posts in East Berlin and intercepted countless messages from KGB assets in the area, poking deep holes into the iron curtain.
The gist of the article is that there are many good people in the German Intelligence, but that the Service as a whole is too bureaucratic and ineffective.
But the main part is the lack of focus on Russia due to the German Government’s Ostpolitik:
>One got the impression that they were so lax about Russia because they were afraid of finding out something they didn’t want to see. Because then maybe they should have done something. And they knew that the Chancellery and the German government did not want that.
Idk why the agency even exists if they have zero information about war on European soil — especially from Russia of all countries. Like y’all had one job.
Daaaaaaaaamn
Kinda obvious that German politicians don’t like to work with American intelligence since they hacked Merkels phone and and did major surveillance breaches against German law… But ye.. German intelligence unfortunately is limited by politicians
Chief of German Navy made this comment a couple of days before the invasion:
>”What he really wants is respect,” the vice admiral said, speaking in English in remarks that were posted on a video on YouTube.
>”And, my God, giving someone respect is low cost, even no cost. … It is easy to give him the respect he really demands – and probably also deserves,” Schönbach said, calling Russia an old and important country.
>Schönbach said Russia’s actions in Ukraine needed to be addressed, but added that “the Crimea Peninsula is gone: It will never come back – this is a fact.”
Luckily, he had to resign due to this. I’m against emotional Germany bashing, because the Government(s) had a decades-long erroneous Ostpolitik, but there is some serious soul-searching to be done due to this. And statements like this one are a symptom of how deep the myopic view of Putin’s Russia went.
I believe Germany needs to take a much more aggressive and proactive approach to arming and helping Ukraine. It needs to make up for this.
Germany is a shame after WWII. Country without character.
This is nothing new and maybe part of the system.
BND and Verfassungsschutz are treated like normal administrative officials. No “unlimited budget” like NSA. No exemptions from laws like the CIA. No “license to kill” as 007. Not even allowed to travel without permission – and if you travel to a conference you have the travel reimbursement by sending paper receipts to a secret address via post.
These positions have been cut down in budget rounds like the German army or any other administrative branch. They work like in the 1980s, salary is low.
Who works for them? Like cops they do not have the best or brightest. They take who is not clearly dumb and has enough motivation to play spy or cop. Take this in every level in the organization and you’ll see what we have.
Lessons from the CIA on arrogance, top r/nottheonion material, that.
I mean, can anyone blame us for not trusting our intelligence services after the Gestapo and the Stasi. Not even counting the hiring of ex SS, Gestapo and Wehrmacht personnel.
Has everyone already forgotten about the whole V-Mann disaster? Or more recently, Hans-Georg Maaßen?
Don’t trust your secret services people, those guys whatever they’ll get away with. So if you don’t want them to sell drugs to your populace to raise money for a terrorist-organization, make sure you still control them, not the other way around.
Americans lecturing others about arrogance, lmao
This is true
not enough guantánamos for their taste? not enough secret flights? not enough coupes? not enough torture?
I’m imagining some German spies bumbling around eastern Europe ‘Allo ‘allo style.
Sure, maybe, but I’m sure they never throw paper in the plastic bin. Very thoughtful people.
Makes sense, ‘member this? I ‘member https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/special-forces-evacuated-german-spy-chief-ukraine-focus-magazine-2022-02-25/
Meanwhile in France „thank god for Germany“
The CIA is the same agency that basically kidnapped a German citizen without a proper reason.
He was than flown to Afghanistan where he was held at a black site and routinely interrogated, beaten, strip-searched, sodomized, and subjected to other cruel forms of inhumane and degrading treatment and torture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri
Given the former Head of the Verfassungsschutz being a right wing Nutter, I expected little else.While I presume that and the NSU affair to be exceptions to the Norm, we just don’t have the Cultural or political Basis for effective Intel Agencies.
Likely never will.
Useless German spies has been a long standing tradition for over a century.
I’m not exactly shocked that they didn’t want to. The BfV had (and probably still has) extensive contact to AfD and other far-right groups, and as we all know, they kinda stan hard for Putin.
They also massivly failed in Kabul. The German embassy was basicly calling Berlin that the Taliban were going to take over the city very soon and the German government choose to rely on the BND, which was a massive mistake.
A huge problem is the general attitude of taking it save, in a secret service. Basicly you get promoted by not having done anything wrong, which is a bad approach in this case. It has to be who delivers results.
​
Thats also the big difference between the Bundeswehr and the BND. The Bundeswehr has well trained soldiers, but lacks proper weapons. The BND is just bad.