Discussion Thread for the popular vote on 28 November 2021

20 comments

1. It will be interesting to see how the nursing initiative will be implemented if it passes (which seems likely). As far as I am aware there’s very little precedent there.

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3. Voted yes on all three, while I think the Justiz-Initiative isn’t perfect, it certainly is better to pick the judges “randomly” than what we currently have where they actually have to pay their party to get enough votes.

   Also nursing initiative is a given for me since I have a lot of relatives working in that area and know first-hand how stressful and demanding of a job it is. Lots of people get burnouts, change careers or get other health issues. And the things they have to see and do during that job are also pretty harsh, definitely something I could never do myself and that I have a lot of respect for – so yes.

   The COVID-19 act is also obviously a yes for me.

   Not sure about the Energiegesetz in Zurich though, there are good arguments on both sides.

4. Only thing I’m not sure about is the Judge initiative, the other two are clearly a yes for me.

5. Elire un juge par tirage au sort ! Du grand n’importe quoi 😡

6. For me the interesting issue with the Justice by lottery initiative is that it’s kinda in between.

   What we have now is an imperfect system. By more or less allotting seats on the federal courts according to party strength, we guarantee that they more or less mirror, in their entirety, the politics and values of the population.

   On the other hand, we could have something like the German system of ‘professional’ justices, who do this as a career, and can be sanctioned if necessary.

   The justice initiative does something in between, in having some body pre-select who qualifies…. and then doing a lottery on who specifically gets it. THat seems to me to just have the issues of both solutions and none of the advantages.

7. Yes to judges: Political parties shouldn’t have the power to elect judges.

   Yes to the covid act: we have done the contact tracing (when the ITdepartment worked), we have studied this virus, we can control it best when some immunity is in place, be it “natural” or through vaccination.

   Yes to the nursing initiative: this one shouldn’t need an explanation.

8. [The RTS did a small fact checking on the COVID law](https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/12615165-vrai-ou-faux-nous-avons-verifie-six-affirmations-des-partisans-et-des-opposants-a-la-loi-covid.html)

   TLDR:
   – If rejected, foreign travel with a certificate would be impossible.
   – There’s no personal data that is stored by the federal administration nor the cantons, so no means of “global surveillance”. And the information stored: Names, date of birth and status of certificate are only usable for comparison with an ID (which the governement already has.)
   – The vaccin works. You’re not as contagious when vaccinated and you reduce drastically your risk of severe case.
   – There’s no additional power given to the Federal Council. Their actual powers comes from the 2013 law.
   – The FC didn’t hold their promise of letting everyone go free with the certificate. Well partially true. Unfortunately, the situation is not clear and with the winter arriving, the risk of a new wave should not be ignored. And we are seeing a rise of hospitalisations since mid October.
   – Restaurant and hotels saw a drop in occupency. Yes for Restaurant, during the 2 weeks after the certificate was established, they saw a drop of 13%. But refusing would not change anything for them as the current situation will still valid over the winter (19 March 22), therefore GastroSuisse is neutral on the vote. Hotels and the tourist industry on the other hand are in favour arguing the certificate allows better control and a clearer situation.

   Without the certificate, the alternative is a new lockdown in case of a new wave overwhelming our infrastructure.

   [On the Federal Judge vote, they also published a query in each party revenus for the different parties with their judges.](https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/12612119-les-juges-federaux-rapportent-plus-de-400000-francs-par-an-aux-partis.html)

   In it, the SVP refuse to answer but indicate that they do receive money, the Centre has it entirely voluntary, the FDP is against these contributions overall, gaining only about 1000 CHF per judge. The Greens and Socialist have a percentage of revenus (depending on positions and situation) between 3 and 6%.

9. The only thing I’m currently torn about is the nursing initiative. Judges is a no and Covid is a yes.

   How is it better to vote yes on something that lacks concrete information on how it should be implemented vs. what I think seems like a reasonable counterproposal? The two things that I question the most in particular at the moment are:

   * It seems like there’s a lot of potential for massively increasing health care costs for everyone depending on how it’s implemented
   * How is it better that the federal government determines fair working conditions vs. if the cantons do it?

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11. I will vote yes on all 3.

    * **Nursing.** Health care workers are in DESPERATE need of some care themselves. Even before covid their working conditions where shit. I have two dear folks working in that sector and the economic pressures they’re under are perverse. Nurses in elderly care are little more than robots these days, rushing from one room to another because they are not allocated enough time and resources. Meanwhile old folks are little more than battery hens laying money until they croak. There’s no time left to have any sort of personal interactions with them anymore. It has become a business about keeping them alive instead of keeping them living. I know fuck all about what the initiative actually plans to do. All I know is that the government doesn’t think anything needs to be done.
    * **Judges.** Party politics should have no role in selecting judges. The proposed system isn’t perfect but a popularity contest among the political elite sounds even worse to me.
    * **Covid.** I’ve read through pretty much the whole text particularly in regards to the criticisms of surveillance and restriction of personal freedoms. There’s none of that in it. What’s in it: Aid payments, deeper cooperation and more money for pandemic taskforce aspects like contact tracing and data analysis to make faster more fact based decisions.

12. Another idea for the nursing initiative (I already voted yes):

    Vote No, but vote yes in the surely sometime upcoming initiative for a bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen. I know, very unpopular opinion but hear me out. This would address in a way problems like caring for elderly or sick on a voluntary basis or raising children. This would address working poor jobs (cleaning, but also nurses on assistance level). This would give taxing professions like nursing a little bit more flexibility in choosing a part time job only. Also it would force us to develop ideas for great incentives to work instead of just punishing people who don’t work. Social welfare as a system has kinda failed and people stay in this system far too long. There’s still gonna be lazy folks, probably getting into debt or whatever but I think the bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen has interesting aspects.

13. If you’re unsure about the judge initiative, Republik wrote a piece on the current setup (in German). I’m appalled.

    https://www.republik.ch/2021/11/12/gebt-damit-euch-gegeben-wird

14. Yes to nurses no to judges and of course yes to all covidiots.

15. Are there people out there campaigning for the so called “Justizinitiative” apart from Mr Gasser himself? There was no debate on this matter on Infrarouge “because of the lack of backing for this initiative”, from their own words. I had to use my (limited) skills in German and watch Arena to make up my opinion, which is better than nothing but still…

16. My family and I voted last weekend. All three voted Yes COVID, No judges, and they voted No nurses and me yes.

17. Voted Yes Covid, Yes Nurse, No Judges.

18. I voted No to covid no to judge and no to nurses

19. i voted no on covid, no on nurses, and no on judges

20. One more hour. Get out of bed and cast that vote.

    We get a new sticky at 12?