In my 40+ yrs working as a supervisor in the unionized environment of very large employers – I can’t think of one union that wasn’t.
Oh fuck off with this crap already mate. Tired of it.
Why is it so hard not to be a jerk? If I did any of these things in my low paid job, I’d be fired. These guys are being paid public money and are still behaving like jerks. They’re probably all past their 30s and 40s, I would think in my 20s they’d be more wise, mature and empathetic. Certainly my parents lectured me constantly not to become the things I hate and be nice to those who are nice to you and only be bad if it’s your only option out of the situation and/or you can afford it. But I guess older people being wise is a stereotype. I’d hate to become guys like these when I’m at their age. They deserve bad things to happen to them and not be able to complain about it.
Anyone becoming inured to the phrase “institutional racism”. I remember 20 years with that Stephen Lawrence thing that phrase was a real shocking thing. Nowadays it seems everything is institutionally racist. Maybe we need better language for grading different levels. A part of me wonders if it gets more publicity to chuck that phrase in there.
The first step in solving a problem, is identifying the problem.
[deleted]
Is there any service in London that is not institutionally misogynist and racist? The Met, The Fire Brigade, The Tories…
Impossible the government released a report a couple of years ago that said there was zero institutional racism in the UK.
>Mayor of London Sadiq Khan said: “The findings of Nazir Afzal OBE’s review must be nothing short of a watershed moment for the London Fire Brigade. The details published today of institutional misogyny, racism and discrimination are abhorrent.”
I’m sure the report is entirely fair and unbiased, with these two involved.
This is a societal problem, not an institutional one. Every workplace has dickheads, but Gary the double-glazing salesman and his mate Barry the bricky aren’t hauled over the coals for making racist jokes or sexist remarks.
Until this is recognised and accepted, every decent-sized organisation will find itself branded as “institutionally misogynist and racist” and find themselves apologising for something ingrained into the culture of this country and society.
As far as the Fire Service goes, they literally bend over backwards trying to encourage women & people from minority backgrounds to join up and protect their communities, something which I’ve never known or seen in any other organisation which I’ve worked for – surely that can’t be a bad thing?
It’s certainly troubling but not all that surprising.
I don’t want to stereotype (lol) but it’s a working class white male dominated sector and having worked in similar fields I know how it can be as a woman/poc.
But this doesn’t mean we don’t support strikes and better working conditions/pay.
I’m of middle Eastern descent and applying to join the fire service.
Stuff like this does make me wonder if I’m making the right decision…
Next time you need rescuing from a fire, make sure you check the liberal credentials of the person risking their life to save you.
Nazir Afzal has a fantastic proud history of calling out racism :
Racism in cricket
Racism in the fire brigade
Racism in UK universities
Racism in grooming gang prosecutions
He also wrote a book on how to spot racism!
What did people expect? The fire brigade is mostly working class men who didn’t achieve educationally, and now work in a masculine and highly unionised environment where no one can lose their job. These are exactly the type of people I’d expect are living 20 years in the past
The only place where Nazir afzal didn’t find racism was the girls abused in Rotherham :
Here is the article for those that don’t want to click the link:
The London Fire Brigade (LFB) is “institutionally misogynist and racist” with a “toxic culture that allows bullying and abuse”, an independent review has found.
One black firefighter had a noose put above his locker while a female firefighter said she advised female friends not to let male firefighters in the house to check smoke alarms because they “go through women’s drawers looking for underwear and sex toys”.
She said the threshold for bullying is so high “you would have to gouge someone’s eyes out to get sacked”, adding: “Everything else is seen as banter.”
In another incident, a Muslim had bacon and sausages put in his coat pockets and a terrorist hotline sign posted on his locker.
The review’s author said he and his team “found dangerous levels of ingrained prejudice against women and the barriers faced by people of colour spoke for themselves”.
Nazir Afzal, the author of the review and a former chief crown prosecutor for the North West, said he and his team “found dangerous levels of ingrained prejudice against women and the barriers faced by people of colour spoke for themselves”.
People from ethnically diverse backgrounds were more likely to be subject to disciplinary action, less likely to be promoted and largely unrepresented at senior levels, and also frequently racially abused.
There was also “clear evidence of racism, misogyny and bullying, which made it hard for many firefighters to do their job and forced others out of the Brigade”.
“We found dangerous levels of ingrained prejudice against women and the barriers faced by people of colour spoke for themselves.
“Not only were they more likely to be subject to disciplinary action, less likely to be promoted and largely unrepresented at senior levels, but they were also frequently the target of racist abuse.
“We also saw examples of how this was driving some people of colour out of the brigade and there was evidence that talented people, committed to public service, were being lost as a result.”
Same level of operational bigotry as Met Police ‘not found’
Mr Afzal said he wished to draw an important distinction with similar issues experienced by the Metropolitan Police, which was put “on notice” earlier this year after evidence emerged of sexist, racist and homophobic behaviour among officers.
“Where there has been flagrant examples of police officers misusing power and allowing prejudice to shape their actions, we did not find the same level of operational bigotry,” he said.
The report said the disadvantage and discrimination affecting staff did not translate into its operations or affect the way it prevents and responds to incidents.
Over 10 months, Mr Nazir and his team heard the experiences of more than 2,000 current and former staff and the public, including members of the community affected by the Grenfell fire.
The report, which makes 23 recommendations, was established after the suicide of firefighter Jaden Francois-Espirit. His family were concerned he had been bullied because of his race, the report said.
Review ‘must be nothing short of watershed moment’
London Mayor Sadiq Khan said the review “must be nothing short of a watershed moment”.
He said for LFB to be trusted to protect all Londoners it must be a workplace free from discrimination, unfairness and inequality, where people of all backgrounds can thrive.
He said: “The details published today of institutional misogyny, racism and discrimination are abhorrent.
“Londoners, including firefighters and other staff, have been let down by those who should have supported them have every right to be angry, as I am.
“I fully supported the fire commissioner, Andy Roe, in commissioning this review and we both agree that all of its recommendations and findings must be acted upon with urgency and conviction to rebuild public trust and the confidence of LFB staff and firefighters who have been failed for far too long.”
‘A very sobering day’
London Fire Commissioner Andy Roe said: “Today is a very sobering day. There is no place for discrimination, harassment and bullying in the Brigade and from today it will be completely clear to all staff what behaviour isn’t acceptable and what the consequences will be.
“I am deeply sorry for the harm that has been caused. I will be fully accountable for improving our culture.”
Samuel Osborne
News reporter @samuelosborne93
Saturday 26 November 2022 07:00, UK
Your not in the cool club if your a public sector not labelled as institutionally misogynist and racist.
I don’t think this is a fire brigade issue. It’s a human issue.
Having worked in the Oil and Gas industry for 20 years there is nothing in this article that I haven’t seen before.
Some things have gotten better, in my industry but we are years behind.
20 years ago I never saw a female offshore. Now maybe 10% of the workforce is. Some of the issues that I have witnessed are from the ancient infrastructure on oil rigs. For example no female changing rooms or toilets. Same as female cabins. This is due to a lack of investment. A drilling rig is there to drill holes in the seabed. Not to accommodate the workforce. So they don’t improve older rigs. Females are then seen as a hassle. It means a lot of extra work. Have to juggle cabins, set up temporary changing rooms. Males and females can’t share a cabin. Not even on opposite shifts.
These tiny issues to the massive industry could be dealt with. But they are not. It’s seen as a hassle. On top of that female workers are often then segregated and herded together. Sanitary bins have to be placed in their bathroom. This is not dealt with dignity. Often men would use this as a point for persecution.
Men often resented females in the workforce because it looked like women got easier jobs. Manual handling etc. As soon as a woman was pissed off, the general response wasn’t of solidarity with your college, asking them what’s up ? It was, she must be on her period. Made me sick.
Most of these rigs were run by old men with no real grasp on reality. They were the king.
When I worked in Norway it changed though. Rigs and cabins are single in general. All bathrooms were single. All had sanitary bins etc. These minor changes along with inclusion and seeing females in supervisory roles showed me a better way. The future and I felt it was better. Not in a fairness or right way. But to extract oil from the ground.
Not every rig or male was sexist but 90% were. I am now not in that industry. I don’t support what I saw and couldn’t change.
In saying all that I don’t think it would be much different in jobs deemed as a female work force.
I mean, obviously it is. Name a fucking industry that isn’t.
Londons Burning had a storyline about this back in the 80 a…
The last photo I remember of the fire brigade was several of these “misogynist racists” almost collapsing from exhaustion to try and put out the Grenfell fire full of mostly low income minorities and women. Stuff like this must work wonders for their morale.
BBC reported an advert celebrating farmer suntans was dangerous and insensitive towards melanoma patients!
Clown world.
We behave like children crying because of a mild cold, or a 27 year old tv starlet talking about being oppressed.
Full report is here, don’t just read the headlines.
Having read it, it’s a fair report. Very little in there to disagree with as a London Firefighter.
He’s made a fair report noting the generally good standard across the brigade but highlighting the inconsistencies across watches. Some pretty awful specific examples in there.
It’s clear that a lot of the cultural and behaviour issues rest on management and he says as much explicitly.
Watches couldn’t be racist/misogynistic/etc. if managers were taking immediate and appropriate action rather than burying their head in sand.
Glad to see this isn’t an anti-firefighter hatchet job, but a fair review of where the brigade is letting its staff down.
‘institutionally’ at this point may as well largely be ‘mostly white people doing the job in a majority white country’.
Wait wait, is it the same Nazif Afzal that said that prosecuting rapegangs was racist?
Same tactic was used to breakup the “occupy” movement. It is not a coincidence that an industrial action is about to take place…
As far as I can see any large organisation is misogynistic and racist. This includes BBC, police, fire brigade, boohoo warehouse (other day), council’s etc.
Because it’s hard to prove categorically.
And usually ends up with positive discrimination and cash thrown at a minority. Job done!
I just know I’m going to be downvoted to hell and back for not immediately swallowing the headline as the unalienable truth straight from the mouth of god himself, but is the misogynist part based on anything other than hiring numbers?
Ok, yes, the underwear drawer thing is awful and obviously, needs to be stopped but I think if it was widespread, we’d hear more about it, since I doubt they look place things back with enough care to not be noticed. It seems likely it’s an individual (who needs to be fired) at a single fire station.
But this is a hard physical job. The gear is heavy, the job frequently requires breaking down doors and the like, carrying people while wearing all that gear – It feels like there are simply going to be fewer women who are physically capable of it, due to having to put in a lot more effort than a man to attain the level of physical strength required to lift the weight and apply the adequate amounts of force. The article doesn’t list anything else that could be classed as misogynistic, so it looks like this is purely based on hiring numbers.
I mean, if you’re a middle aged white man, you know, barely a day goes by where you don’t hear something from someone in your orbit.
In reality, if the country instituted a zero tolerance policy, a lot of companies would shut down overnight due to extreme labour shortages.
What we’re doing right now isn’t working I’m afraid.
We have to start giving out educative penalties, so offending workers get sent on courses that it is not easy to pass to keep their jobs and their wages are garnished to pay for them.
Companies shouldn’t be allowed to fire employees for bigotry unless they refuse to apologise/attend courses. If you create a world where the only place for bigots to go is to associate with other bigots, guess what happens.
30 comments
In my 40+ yrs working as a supervisor in the unionized environment of very large employers – I can’t think of one union that wasn’t.
Oh fuck off with this crap already mate. Tired of it.
Why is it so hard not to be a jerk? If I did any of these things in my low paid job, I’d be fired. These guys are being paid public money and are still behaving like jerks. They’re probably all past their 30s and 40s, I would think in my 20s they’d be more wise, mature and empathetic. Certainly my parents lectured me constantly not to become the things I hate and be nice to those who are nice to you and only be bad if it’s your only option out of the situation and/or you can afford it. But I guess older people being wise is a stereotype. I’d hate to become guys like these when I’m at their age. They deserve bad things to happen to them and not be able to complain about it.
Anyone becoming inured to the phrase “institutional racism”. I remember 20 years with that Stephen Lawrence thing that phrase was a real shocking thing. Nowadays it seems everything is institutionally racist. Maybe we need better language for grading different levels. A part of me wonders if it gets more publicity to chuck that phrase in there.
The first step in solving a problem, is identifying the problem.
[deleted]
Is there any service in London that is not institutionally misogynist and racist? The Met, The Fire Brigade, The Tories…
Impossible the government released a report a couple of years ago that said there was zero institutional racism in the UK.
>Mayor of London Sadiq Khan said: “The findings of Nazir Afzal OBE’s review must be nothing short of a watershed moment for the London Fire Brigade. The details published today of institutional misogyny, racism and discrimination are abhorrent.”
I’m sure the report is entirely fair and unbiased, with these two involved.
This is a societal problem, not an institutional one. Every workplace has dickheads, but Gary the double-glazing salesman and his mate Barry the bricky aren’t hauled over the coals for making racist jokes or sexist remarks.
Until this is recognised and accepted, every decent-sized organisation will find itself branded as “institutionally misogynist and racist” and find themselves apologising for something ingrained into the culture of this country and society.
As far as the Fire Service goes, they literally bend over backwards trying to encourage women & people from minority backgrounds to join up and protect their communities, something which I’ve never known or seen in any other organisation which I’ve worked for – surely that can’t be a bad thing?
It’s certainly troubling but not all that surprising.
I don’t want to stereotype (lol) but it’s a working class white male dominated sector and having worked in similar fields I know how it can be as a woman/poc.
But this doesn’t mean we don’t support strikes and better working conditions/pay.
I’m of middle Eastern descent and applying to join the fire service.
Stuff like this does make me wonder if I’m making the right decision…
Next time you need rescuing from a fire, make sure you check the liberal credentials of the person risking their life to save you.
Nazir Afzal has a fantastic proud history of calling out racism :
Racism in cricket
Racism in the fire brigade
Racism in UK universities
Racism in grooming gang prosecutions
He also wrote a book on how to spot racism!
What did people expect? The fire brigade is mostly working class men who didn’t achieve educationally, and now work in a masculine and highly unionised environment where no one can lose their job. These are exactly the type of people I’d expect are living 20 years in the past
The only place where Nazir afzal didn’t find racism was the girls abused in Rotherham :
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/03/nazir-afzal-there-is-no-religious-basis-for-the-abuse-in-rotherham
Here is the article for those that don’t want to click the link:
The London Fire Brigade (LFB) is “institutionally misogynist and racist” with a “toxic culture that allows bullying and abuse”, an independent review has found.
One black firefighter had a noose put above his locker while a female firefighter said she advised female friends not to let male firefighters in the house to check smoke alarms because they “go through women’s drawers looking for underwear and sex toys”.
She said the threshold for bullying is so high “you would have to gouge someone’s eyes out to get sacked”, adding: “Everything else is seen as banter.”
In another incident, a Muslim had bacon and sausages put in his coat pockets and a terrorist hotline sign posted on his locker.
The review’s author said he and his team “found dangerous levels of ingrained prejudice against women and the barriers faced by people of colour spoke for themselves”.
Nazir Afzal, the author of the review and a former chief crown prosecutor for the North West, said he and his team “found dangerous levels of ingrained prejudice against women and the barriers faced by people of colour spoke for themselves”.
People from ethnically diverse backgrounds were more likely to be subject to disciplinary action, less likely to be promoted and largely unrepresented at senior levels, and also frequently racially abused.
There was also “clear evidence of racism, misogyny and bullying, which made it hard for many firefighters to do their job and forced others out of the Brigade”.
“We found dangerous levels of ingrained prejudice against women and the barriers faced by people of colour spoke for themselves.
“Not only were they more likely to be subject to disciplinary action, less likely to be promoted and largely unrepresented at senior levels, but they were also frequently the target of racist abuse.
“We also saw examples of how this was driving some people of colour out of the brigade and there was evidence that talented people, committed to public service, were being lost as a result.”
Same level of operational bigotry as Met Police ‘not found’
Mr Afzal said he wished to draw an important distinction with similar issues experienced by the Metropolitan Police, which was put “on notice” earlier this year after evidence emerged of sexist, racist and homophobic behaviour among officers.
“Where there has been flagrant examples of police officers misusing power and allowing prejudice to shape their actions, we did not find the same level of operational bigotry,” he said.
The report said the disadvantage and discrimination affecting staff did not translate into its operations or affect the way it prevents and responds to incidents.
Over 10 months, Mr Nazir and his team heard the experiences of more than 2,000 current and former staff and the public, including members of the community affected by the Grenfell fire.
The report, which makes 23 recommendations, was established after the suicide of firefighter Jaden Francois-Espirit. His family were concerned he had been bullied because of his race, the report said.
Review ‘must be nothing short of watershed moment’
London Mayor Sadiq Khan said the review “must be nothing short of a watershed moment”.
He said for LFB to be trusted to protect all Londoners it must be a workplace free from discrimination, unfairness and inequality, where people of all backgrounds can thrive.
He said: “The details published today of institutional misogyny, racism and discrimination are abhorrent.
“Londoners, including firefighters and other staff, have been let down by those who should have supported them have every right to be angry, as I am.
“I fully supported the fire commissioner, Andy Roe, in commissioning this review and we both agree that all of its recommendations and findings must be acted upon with urgency and conviction to rebuild public trust and the confidence of LFB staff and firefighters who have been failed for far too long.”
‘A very sobering day’
London Fire Commissioner Andy Roe said: “Today is a very sobering day. There is no place for discrimination, harassment and bullying in the Brigade and from today it will be completely clear to all staff what behaviour isn’t acceptable and what the consequences will be.
“I am deeply sorry for the harm that has been caused. I will be fully accountable for improving our culture.”
Samuel Osborne
News reporter @samuelosborne93
Saturday 26 November 2022 07:00, UK
Your not in the cool club if your a public sector not labelled as institutionally misogynist and racist.
I don’t think this is a fire brigade issue. It’s a human issue.
Having worked in the Oil and Gas industry for 20 years there is nothing in this article that I haven’t seen before.
Some things have gotten better, in my industry but we are years behind.
20 years ago I never saw a female offshore. Now maybe 10% of the workforce is. Some of the issues that I have witnessed are from the ancient infrastructure on oil rigs. For example no female changing rooms or toilets. Same as female cabins. This is due to a lack of investment. A drilling rig is there to drill holes in the seabed. Not to accommodate the workforce. So they don’t improve older rigs. Females are then seen as a hassle. It means a lot of extra work. Have to juggle cabins, set up temporary changing rooms. Males and females can’t share a cabin. Not even on opposite shifts.
These tiny issues to the massive industry could be dealt with. But they are not. It’s seen as a hassle. On top of that female workers are often then segregated and herded together. Sanitary bins have to be placed in their bathroom. This is not dealt with dignity. Often men would use this as a point for persecution.
Men often resented females in the workforce because it looked like women got easier jobs. Manual handling etc. As soon as a woman was pissed off, the general response wasn’t of solidarity with your college, asking them what’s up ? It was, she must be on her period. Made me sick.
Most of these rigs were run by old men with no real grasp on reality. They were the king.
When I worked in Norway it changed though. Rigs and cabins are single in general. All bathrooms were single. All had sanitary bins etc. These minor changes along with inclusion and seeing females in supervisory roles showed me a better way. The future and I felt it was better. Not in a fairness or right way. But to extract oil from the ground.
Not every rig or male was sexist but 90% were. I am now not in that industry. I don’t support what I saw and couldn’t change.
In saying all that I don’t think it would be much different in jobs deemed as a female work force.
I mean, obviously it is. Name a fucking industry that isn’t.
Londons Burning had a storyline about this back in the 80 a…
The last photo I remember of the fire brigade was several of these “misogynist racists” almost collapsing from exhaustion to try and put out the Grenfell fire full of mostly low income minorities and women. Stuff like this must work wonders for their morale.
BBC reported an advert celebrating farmer suntans was dangerous and insensitive towards melanoma patients!
Clown world.
We behave like children crying because of a mild cold, or a 27 year old tv starlet talking about being oppressed.
Full report is here, don’t just read the headlines.
https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/media/7211/independent-culture-review-of-lfb-report953f61809024e20c7505a869af1f416c56530867cb99fb946ac81475cfd8cb38.pdf
Having read it, it’s a fair report. Very little in there to disagree with as a London Firefighter.
He’s made a fair report noting the generally good standard across the brigade but highlighting the inconsistencies across watches. Some pretty awful specific examples in there.
It’s clear that a lot of the cultural and behaviour issues rest on management and he says as much explicitly.
Watches couldn’t be racist/misogynistic/etc. if managers were taking immediate and appropriate action rather than burying their head in sand.
Glad to see this isn’t an anti-firefighter hatchet job, but a fair review of where the brigade is letting its staff down.
‘institutionally’ at this point may as well largely be ‘mostly white people doing the job in a majority white country’.
Wait wait, is it the same Nazif Afzal that said that prosecuting rapegangs was racist?
Same tactic was used to breakup the “occupy” movement. It is not a coincidence that an industrial action is about to take place…
As far as I can see any large organisation is misogynistic and racist. This includes BBC, police, fire brigade, boohoo warehouse (other day), council’s etc.
Because it’s hard to prove categorically.
And usually ends up with positive discrimination and cash thrown at a minority. Job done!
I just know I’m going to be downvoted to hell and back for not immediately swallowing the headline as the unalienable truth straight from the mouth of god himself, but is the misogynist part based on anything other than hiring numbers?
Ok, yes, the underwear drawer thing is awful and obviously, needs to be stopped but I think if it was widespread, we’d hear more about it, since I doubt they look place things back with enough care to not be noticed. It seems likely it’s an individual (who needs to be fired) at a single fire station.
But this is a hard physical job. The gear is heavy, the job frequently requires breaking down doors and the like, carrying people while wearing all that gear – It feels like there are simply going to be fewer women who are physically capable of it, due to having to put in a lot more effort than a man to attain the level of physical strength required to lift the weight and apply the adequate amounts of force. The article doesn’t list anything else that could be classed as misogynistic, so it looks like this is purely based on hiring numbers.
I mean, if you’re a middle aged white man, you know, barely a day goes by where you don’t hear something from someone in your orbit.
In reality, if the country instituted a zero tolerance policy, a lot of companies would shut down overnight due to extreme labour shortages.
What we’re doing right now isn’t working I’m afraid.
We have to start giving out educative penalties, so offending workers get sent on courses that it is not easy to pass to keep their jobs and their wages are garnished to pay for them.
Companies shouldn’t be allowed to fire employees for bigotry unless they refuse to apologise/attend courses. If you create a world where the only place for bigots to go is to associate with other bigots, guess what happens.
[removed]