Sure. If they can win 326 seats, they’ll have a majority in the Commons and a mandate for a vote. Good luck with that.
I’m so pleased for Scottish people that they are so free of any Socio-economic concerns that the SNP can repurpose a general election to a ‘de facto referendum’
A general election by definition cannot be a referendum, “de facto” or otherwise, if the other parties involved do not recognise it as such. Furthermore, if the SNP defends their record in government in any way, if they announce any new policies, if they campaign on *any* subject other than “Yes to independence”, then it’s not a referendum.
This strategy really only has risks for the SNP and no guaranteed upsides. There are only two outcomes: either they win 50%+1 of the vote or they don’t, by the SNP’s own reasoning. If they do win 50%+1 of the vote (which is far from obvious given that the best the SNP has ever achieved is 49.9% of the vote in 2015, when they were coming off the wave from the referendum, had Sturgeon as a new leader, and had the benefit of the “pro-SNP but anti-independence” vote), then all they have done is win a nonsense vote, the terms of which the opposition parties will not recognise, Westminster will not recognise, and the international community will not recognise. Westminster has no reason to initiate negotiations on such grounds and unilateral secession is just a stupid pipe dream for extremists, because it makes Scotland *persona non grata* as far as the EU and international community is concerned. No Prime Minister would ever get away with negotiating in those circumstances. The SNP aren’t going to abstain from Parliament and the Scottish Government almost certainly returns to the table when the UK Government prepares to review the Scotland Act or the Barnett Formula, de facto, to use a currently popular term, conceding defeat.
Failure to win 50%+1 of the vote means that the SNP have lost according to their own standards, and any future demand for a referendum can simply be met with the response, “You’ve had your second referendum.” It’s leverage in Westminster – support in a hung parliament in exchange for a Section 30 order – would be shot. They get all the stigma of having lost a referendum without having actually conducted a referendum. Nicola Sturgeon’s future would also be in question.
Best of 3?
5?
7?
…till I get the result I want?
Trying to turn a general election into a referendum is straight out of the Tory playbook, and is (in my opinion) an attempt to subvert democracy. General elections are about *so much more* than just one issue whether you like it or not, and an attempt to use it as proof of support for/against a single issue is absolutely ridiculous at best.
It was wrong when Johnson tried to make the 2019 election about Brexit (and he clearly failed given how it was also about Jeremy Corbyn and Labour not being wanted, etc). It is wrong now that Sturgeon is doing it.
That’s dangerous talk, saying you’re putting it in your manifesto is fine, go for it. You can’t just say you’re going to do something so huge in a general election.
[deleted]
So they are saying that if you agree with all SNP policies except independence then you shouldn’t vote for them? Seems farcical.
But which votes will count as independence votes aside from SNP votes according to her? Green? Alba? Independent candidates?
It’s quite handy to declare that, then you don’t have to face tough questions on health or education.
if we throw out the tories from parliment then that will resolve the issue
Recipe for disaster, nicola knows fine well it’ll never happen but as long as she keeps kicking up a fuss and keeps the independence talk going it’ll keep her voters happy and keep her in her job without putting any effort in actually fixing scotlands services, education etc.
The English hate foreigners unless they’re Scottish, then they won’t let them go.
how much money has this woman wasted. if and its a big IF they do get it and it all goes tits up who will bale them out ?.
This is great because it will mean more votes for Labour so we might stand a chance of getting rid of the Tories.
During the last referendum NO vote in 2014 55% voted no and 2015 SNP had 94.9% of seats so how would a general election be accurate indication if Scotland want independence? What am I missing
The SNP going to do their best to get the tories back in.
Astonishing she thinks with the SNP’s beyond terrible record of governing Scotland she actually thinks (a) independence is the only issue at the next GE and (b) that anyone in a million years would trust the SNP to govern an independent country.
Almost every single quantifiable outcome they have control over is worse in Scotland than it is in the rest of the U.K. in spite of similar levels of funding. It’s astonishing how mismanaged the country is in the sole pursuit of independence
At this point everyone knows she says that about every election, right?
Nicola S is a one trick pony – and that trick has now been taken away. All she has is sound bites and irrelevance. Time for her to move on.
Well that’s going to push some toward Labour isn’t it?
I’m guessing this is the establishment’s way of getting more labour seats
Would I be able to seek asylum from England to Scotland should it gain independence? I’m not into this norman lot myself
Unless I’m mistaken, the Scottish people have already had a vote on the issue if independence, which was voted in favour of staying part of the UK.
That Sturgeon woman is suggesting that not having a referendum is an attack on democracy. The same democracy that she is calling for to be used in a vote, that has already been used in a vote. Is it not democracy if the result isn’t what you wanted?
Do we now just keep having votes until she gets the result she wants?
Best two out of three?
Best over all average?
You had your shot and you failed. The reason you failed is because you only included the Scottish voters. I would think that the English and Welsh people are that fed up of hearing her shite, that if the latter two peoples were asked to put forward their votes, which has not yet been done, she might get her way.
Stop whinging, stop whining, get on with life. You forget that your smaller populous puts less in the pot, yet per head gets more out. Such as free prescriptions, more into education and the such. You are treated better than the English and Welsh. Your Scottish MP’s vote in both the Scottish Assembly and UK Parliament, thereby making decisions for both the greater UK and purely Scottish issues. There is no leaving out Scottish MP’s for purely English or Welsh issues.
Plus, good luck when you need to compete as Scotland instead of GBR at the sporting activities, as Scotland has never win anything, not even a vote😏
If you say so Nicola. Good way to divert from your policies I guess
26 comments
Sure. If they can win 326 seats, they’ll have a majority in the Commons and a mandate for a vote. Good luck with that.
I’m so pleased for Scottish people that they are so free of any Socio-economic concerns that the SNP can repurpose a general election to a ‘de facto referendum’
Most Scot’s don’t agree (https://imgur.com/a/kRLQBZ4)
A general election by definition cannot be a referendum, “de facto” or otherwise, if the other parties involved do not recognise it as such. Furthermore, if the SNP defends their record in government in any way, if they announce any new policies, if they campaign on *any* subject other than “Yes to independence”, then it’s not a referendum.
This strategy really only has risks for the SNP and no guaranteed upsides. There are only two outcomes: either they win 50%+1 of the vote or they don’t, by the SNP’s own reasoning. If they do win 50%+1 of the vote (which is far from obvious given that the best the SNP has ever achieved is 49.9% of the vote in 2015, when they were coming off the wave from the referendum, had Sturgeon as a new leader, and had the benefit of the “pro-SNP but anti-independence” vote), then all they have done is win a nonsense vote, the terms of which the opposition parties will not recognise, Westminster will not recognise, and the international community will not recognise. Westminster has no reason to initiate negotiations on such grounds and unilateral secession is just a stupid pipe dream for extremists, because it makes Scotland *persona non grata* as far as the EU and international community is concerned. No Prime Minister would ever get away with negotiating in those circumstances. The SNP aren’t going to abstain from Parliament and the Scottish Government almost certainly returns to the table when the UK Government prepares to review the Scotland Act or the Barnett Formula, de facto, to use a currently popular term, conceding defeat.
Failure to win 50%+1 of the vote means that the SNP have lost according to their own standards, and any future demand for a referendum can simply be met with the response, “You’ve had your second referendum.” It’s leverage in Westminster – support in a hung parliament in exchange for a Section 30 order – would be shot. They get all the stigma of having lost a referendum without having actually conducted a referendum. Nicola Sturgeon’s future would also be in question.
Best of 3?
5?
7?
…till I get the result I want?
Trying to turn a general election into a referendum is straight out of the Tory playbook, and is (in my opinion) an attempt to subvert democracy. General elections are about *so much more* than just one issue whether you like it or not, and an attempt to use it as proof of support for/against a single issue is absolutely ridiculous at best.
It was wrong when Johnson tried to make the 2019 election about Brexit (and he clearly failed given how it was also about Jeremy Corbyn and Labour not being wanted, etc). It is wrong now that Sturgeon is doing it.
That’s dangerous talk, saying you’re putting it in your manifesto is fine, go for it. You can’t just say you’re going to do something so huge in a general election.
[deleted]
So they are saying that if you agree with all SNP policies except independence then you shouldn’t vote for them? Seems farcical.
But which votes will count as independence votes aside from SNP votes according to her? Green? Alba? Independent candidates?
It’s quite handy to declare that, then you don’t have to face tough questions on health or education.
if we throw out the tories from parliment then that will resolve the issue
Recipe for disaster, nicola knows fine well it’ll never happen but as long as she keeps kicking up a fuss and keeps the independence talk going it’ll keep her voters happy and keep her in her job without putting any effort in actually fixing scotlands services, education etc.
The English hate foreigners unless they’re Scottish, then they won’t let them go.
how much money has this woman wasted. if and its a big IF they do get it and it all goes tits up who will bale them out ?.
This is great because it will mean more votes for Labour so we might stand a chance of getting rid of the Tories.
During the last referendum NO vote in 2014 55% voted no and 2015 SNP had 94.9% of seats so how would a general election be accurate indication if Scotland want independence? What am I missing
The SNP going to do their best to get the tories back in.
Astonishing she thinks with the SNP’s beyond terrible record of governing Scotland she actually thinks (a) independence is the only issue at the next GE and (b) that anyone in a million years would trust the SNP to govern an independent country.
Almost every single quantifiable outcome they have control over is worse in Scotland than it is in the rest of the U.K. in spite of similar levels of funding. It’s astonishing how mismanaged the country is in the sole pursuit of independence
At this point everyone knows she says that about every election, right?
Nicola S is a one trick pony – and that trick has now been taken away. All she has is sound bites and irrelevance. Time for her to move on.
Well that’s going to push some toward Labour isn’t it?
I’m guessing this is the establishment’s way of getting more labour seats
Would I be able to seek asylum from England to Scotland should it gain independence? I’m not into this norman lot myself
Unless I’m mistaken, the Scottish people have already had a vote on the issue if independence, which was voted in favour of staying part of the UK.
That Sturgeon woman is suggesting that not having a referendum is an attack on democracy. The same democracy that she is calling for to be used in a vote, that has already been used in a vote. Is it not democracy if the result isn’t what you wanted?
Do we now just keep having votes until she gets the result she wants?
Best two out of three?
Best over all average?
You had your shot and you failed. The reason you failed is because you only included the Scottish voters. I would think that the English and Welsh people are that fed up of hearing her shite, that if the latter two peoples were asked to put forward their votes, which has not yet been done, she might get her way.
Stop whinging, stop whining, get on with life. You forget that your smaller populous puts less in the pot, yet per head gets more out. Such as free prescriptions, more into education and the such. You are treated better than the English and Welsh. Your Scottish MP’s vote in both the Scottish Assembly and UK Parliament, thereby making decisions for both the greater UK and purely Scottish issues. There is no leaving out Scottish MP’s for purely English or Welsh issues.
Plus, good luck when you need to compete as Scotland instead of GBR at the sporting activities, as Scotland has never win anything, not even a vote😏
If you say so Nicola. Good way to divert from your policies I guess