So: SRF has [an article about “Menstruationsurlaub”](https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/pilot-menstruationsurlaub-freitage-waehrend-der-regel-enttabuisierung-oder-unnoetige-idee).
Women complain about unequal pay, although most of the difference is explained by individual choices, such as taking time out of their careers to raise kids.
There is discrimination, of course: Any hiring manager is very aware of that young women may take maternity leave, which can cause serious problems for smaller companies. It may be illegal to discriminate on that basis, but be assured that it happens. That’s reality.
So now the women’s movement wants to give companies yet another reason to discriminate against young women: They publish a study showing that women are less productive when menstruating, and use this as a reason for women to get extra vacation days.
Do these people understand that they are going to \*cause\* discrimination? They are giving companies reasons to avoid hiring young women?
ETA: I’m surprised at how controversial this is. IMHO we’re supposed to be striving for equality, not creating special privileges for one gender. Making women *explicitly* more expensive to employ seems like a really bad idea, if equality is your goal.
40 comments
Yes, they should be able to take it. It’s not a choice and it can get pretty bad. This is just common sense, it has nothing to do with social movements. Just have some empathy.
What I don’t understand is why you’re trying to paint your argument as benevolent. If you really believe it, stand by what you say.
If someone is suffering from Endometriosis like I do, I can understand why they would want to take 1-2 days off from work as this disease is indeed incredibly painful. And a lot of women suffer from this disease still undiagnosed.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/endometriosis
Are you aware that some women can barely leave the bed during their period, despite taking the strongest painkillers??
I don’t believe that many women who don’t need it would make use of these days and the ones that do are probably of the sort who have no shame in pretending to be sick to get off work anyways.
It would be fair if AHV would compensate this, but not the employer. That would reduce the reasons for discrimination. Of course the social contributions would have to be a bit higher for everyone in this case.
AHV is already paying the maternity leave. So, the only problem for the employer is that someone else needs to do the job.
I agree. If you have a medical problem you can get a doctors note saying so and you won’t have to go to work, that has existed for decades and it works. Additional days off for potential medical problems are redundant and will undoubtedly add to more discrimination from employers.
I’m a male and I’m totally for the Menstruationsurlaub! I’m glad I don’t have to go through such pain. On another note; I love how you try to twist it at the end, as If you’d care.
>Women complain about unequal pay, although most of the difference is explained by individual choices, such as taking time out of their careers to raise kids.
How in gods name does raising a kid explain the pay gap? Care to explain it to my kidless coworker why she makes 10k less per year than me, while literally doing the exact same work?
Don’t you just love it when men discuss these issues. If it gets bad enough women should absolutely get the time off. We stay home for all sorts of things, a cold, nausea, throat pain. If you aren’t a woman, you simply have to concede that you know nothing about their pain levels. I have met women who don’t suffer much, and others who are crippled by the pain for a few days straight. I do sincerely hope that this becomes a thing, as it’s a matter of fairness.
I dont see how this shouldn’t just fall under any sick leave regulations and perks that already exist. Either symptoms are bad enough to warrant sick leave as with any other sickness, or they aren’t. What’s the rationale for a special kind of leave just for this?
Good luck when the first case of dystymia without menstruation due to hypothalamic amenorrhea being denied menstruationsurlaub pops up.
You’re the beacon of hope the feminist movement needs, seeing through the fog and realising how awful this policy would be for women, causing only more discrimination.
Well done lad!
/s
Lol of course a Walliser would come up with such sexist garbage
Ah the old swiss argument of “but think of the companies” this is why we don’t have 5 weeks of vacation as a standard
If you feel bad you should be able to call in sick without having to fear negative feedback from your employer.
This is not just for woman but people with chronical illnesses.
It’s not like I’m going to do a good job if I’m in pain or feel like crap otherwise.
So you support creating a hostile work environment for the role of having children in Switzerland. This is crazy woman are everyday are regretting having kids because of the institution comments and views towards woman working and having small kids.
If you carry on with this less woman will be having children or leaving to move to countries with more understanding and tolerances.
You know nothing about the issues woman have dealing with the medical practices or judgements so these comments of yours are terrible.
Good luck with the future of this lovely countries it views, judgement and finger pointing like yours prevail.
Working with people who are in pain, whoever they are (male or female) is difficult. People might be angry, sensitive, have difficulties taking the right decisions and so on. Relationships are affected, quality of work is affected.
No one who is in pain should come working. I prefer knowing that a colleague is on leave rather than having to deal with how they feel. This should totally be possible to take.
Lots of Companies have unlimited sick days, there’s not really large abuse
We’ve reached a level of stupidness ever seen… It’s crazy…
Feminists should keep doing what they’re doing… In a few years, they’ll be back in the kitchen…
Reality is If you are a team leader or manager you will get rid of people who don’t comen to work the most often. As a company you don’t care about gender you care about money.
They can cry for empathie as much as they want but If you work a job where you can’t afford to just let the work sit for some days somebody else has to do it otherwise money will be lost.
A company is not your husband. It doesn’t have to care to the same extend about your well beeing.
The corporat world is cold and brutal.
“Individual choices”, like not getting the job because the average manager thinks that you are less qualified. Yes. This entire attitude of “sexism is only when a guy grabs her ass” is so incredibly naive and harmful. It’s along the same lines of “black people in the US are poorer because of their own choices since they choose not to go to a good school”.
*’Women complain about unequal pay, although most of the difference is explained by individual choices, such as taking time out of their careers to raise kids.’*
You give the impression that you are really not very well read on this issue at all. This argument is a non-starter. Feel free to reach out if you need an explanation as to why.
*’Do these people understand that they are going to *cause* discrimination?’*
If men had a biological cycle that could potentially put them out of action for 5 days every month, do you really think we wouldn’t have factored that in to basic employment law? Again, sounds like you really haven’t thought any part of your argument through. Might be time to read a couple of books that aren’t written by Jordan Peterson.
I would prefer if doctors improved the treatments. I don’t see any medical efforts in that sense.
I have a “perfectly healthy uterus” but still have a lot of pain, I can manage to go to work if I take ibuprofen correctly on time. Still not 100% productive as a normal day, but at least my boss does not notice.
Doctors are always dismissive when I ask for ablation, and I can’t even dream of asking for hysterectomy having a “perfect uterus”.
The only improvements in the last 30 years have been stronger drugs, better pads and underwear with thick layers. **None of these things solve the problem thou.**
What are the doctors doing?
Well if this goes through I am definitely going to have to stop hiring women or cut their yearly pay by a month. If they have endometriosis or something like that they can get a doctors note once and then they can take their days off already now without getting a new note every time in my company.
I’m not going to let myself be forced by the state to this. The current system works, this opens up abuse.
Eh, depends, if it’s really bad, then sure.
If it’s manageable, then not.
Im not so well versed if this would seriously affect the hiring of women negatively but it kinda looks like it would.
I also think if all women could take payed sick leave for menstruation it would cause a bit more sexism because most dudes would just think „another privilege fo them“
Ironically, this implies that women work less days on average, and therefore do not earn equal pay.
But feminism hasn’t been about equal rights for a few decades anyways. It’s only about more privileges, more power, and discrimination of men. Not that that was still needed, but the recent ban for men to run for federal council by the socialdemocrats has made that crystal clear.
Imagine having all the responsibility for our species continuity resting on your gender’s shoulders (and consequently our retirment funds as well, since money is all that seems to matter in this post), for which you’re subjected to monthly bleeding and severe pain only to then, after millenia of male abuse, when some people start discussing how to make their participation in society more equitable (**equal rights =/= equitable regulation of labor in order for equal opportunity pursuit of happiness and realisation**), be told all that shit is just “special previledges”.
By your logic, maybe we, men, should be sat down in a period cramp simulator every month for a few days in order for society to be equal then.
Men don’t get discriminated against because they have to do military service… how much does the average guy take for that vs women for maternity leave? 36 weeks total… the equivalent of 3 births.
​
That said, take a sick day.
Oh look, I wonder what your predisposition is on this issue:
“Women complain about unequal pay, although most of the difference is explained by individual choices, such as taking time out of their careers to raise kids.”
I wonder what your gender is *licks finger, raises it overhead* The wind tells me you’re an alpha male.
Ah yes, it’s choices made by women themselves. I have always been amazed by the autogamy abilities of human females. I also suspect it’s pheromones that signal the male superior looking for an employee to promote that the female, despite verbally saying she wants the job and can do it, that she, in fact, isn’t. It certainly isn’t men who do not believe women can lead. All the studies that show that women face structural discrimination in education and employment are lies. /s
Do you know that the work day, Monday to Friday, 8-6 is based off of a man’s hormones and not a woman’s?
I wholeheartedely agree that women should have a max of 1-2 days of menstruation leave per month given the fact that for most women, my girlfriend included experience a very painful menstruation period. Atleast one day where it can get so bad she cannot focus due to the discomfort and pain.
I say this with empathy and compassion for women having to deal with this. Just saying if I did own my own company. Employed women would be granted this as a company policy.
I don’t think it’s necessary to get a holiday for this but I would appreciate home office on those days😄
> Women complain about unequal pay, although most of the difference is explained by individual choices, such as taking time out of their careers to raise kids.
Those “choices” often have other factors play a role. Including typical “male” jobs often not offering less than 80% work pensum on top of being paid more. So it’s often just a financial question. As long that’s still the case I don’t think it’s fair to label this as “individual choice”.
>IMHO we’re supposed to be striving for equality, not creating special privileges for one gender.
This. As long as everyone is just shouting for equality, we should drive for real equality, not just picking the things that you like.
it just creates another thing that might make it less attractive to hire women. also even if u have a headache or smtng you often cant just take time off
Discrimination is by default unjust. If you pick someone that is more qualified and more likely to be a high performer that is not discrimination. Is a sane businesses decision.
And now the woke people will come and tell me that it is fair to pick the high performer, as long as the low performer is a man. If the low performer is a woman and the high performer a man, THEN it is discrimination to pick the high performer…..
Well I do see the problem, I’m not sure if Menstruationsurlaub is the right way to do that. I’d be more for a kind of “regular” doctor’s note, for the people who need it.
The whole part about “women earning less is an individual choice” is just really stupid and is mostly showing your own sexism, though. I’ll probably never have kids, but I have had future employers ask about kids etc. in a lot of talks. I know it is illegal, and I know I can lie – but it’s still a systemic problem that I have to deal with it even if it doesn’t have anything to do with my life at all. It’s basically assumed that because I’m female I’ll be having kids, will want to make different career choices than a man in my exact position. It’s just something that men don’t really have to deal with ever.
Also, about the whole “women need to negotiate their salary better” – there is a lot of evidence that shows that women will be considered problematic if they do that, and they actually hamper their careers if they are seen as “too aggressive”. It’s something that as an individual person you don’t really have a choice about. I’m – as a woman – always judged against societal expectations of how I should be behaving, and I’ll be judged a lot more negatively than a man making similar demands.
There are also a lot more things I could be talking about, such as mental load, care/social load etc., that are systemic problems that cannot really be influenced by a single person, and will impact the career and salary chances of women negatively.
i think its a good idea. Not a woman, but being in terrible pain once month while still having to work doesn’t sound fun. Its also affects their co-workers.
As most of the men, you just don’t how painful it can be for some women
Do you have a uterus? Are you medically qualified to give an opinion on this?
>Women complain about unequal pay, although most of the difference isexplained by individual choices, such as taking time out of theircareers to raise kids.
This is plane wrong and fake news. One google search will lead you to an article by the EBG with statistics from the BFS. There is a 7-8% pay gap, that can not be explained by objective factors.
[https://www.ebg.admin.ch/ebg/de/home/themen/arbeit/lohngleichheit/grundlagen/zahlen-und-fakten.html](https://www.ebg.admin.ch/ebg/de/home/themen/arbeit/lohngleichheit/grundlagen/zahlen-und-fakten.html)
I don’t neccessarily disagree with the rest that you said. It’s a sad truth that discrimination happens and that we might create more “reason” to do it.
Yet I find it highly unreasonable to revolve our policy making around “well some/a lot of people might be bad and will do bad things based on this”. That’s a slippery slope to very conservative and unprogressive politics.
I’m completely against a law that may say: any menstruating person can get X days off every month.
The current situation about sick days should already cover women who have difficult periods. As far as i understand, most women have normal periods and many have painful ones, but that pain can usually be attributed to an underlying medical condition. So then it would absolutely qualify for standard sick leave, and i believe that’s completely fair.
If you have a condition that causes painful periods, you absolutely qualify for a few days off each month under the current normal medical system, and you wouldn’t have to disclose this to your employer before employment!
But, I’m completely FOR any system that better recognizes these conditions, because as far as i understand, they are very under diagnosed.
What’s not fair is handing out holidays to one gender, even if most people in that gender do not require the days off. As you say, it makes them less employable. We need a better medical system, not some dumb woke (in)/equality laws.
I would rather see paternity leave and better joint parental leave options.
Then I wouldn’t feel like moving back to Switzerland would risk my career chances because I want to have kids in a few years.
I have endometriosis, as do more than 1 in 10 women, and it does make work hard sometimes. But there are more important things which will improve working life for women and having flexible options for home office already are a huge help.
Nothing in the world screams „you are right to pay me less, because 5 days of the month i am not able to work properly anyway“ more than this stupid demand.
100 years worth of fighting fot equality , destroyed with one stupid demand. Greatest job ever!