I wonder if this will also be improving the relocation from people to remote areas, as I assume those institutions will most likely won’t will charging for it.
But also, if doing so, will affect the common idealization of high quality and free education that exists abroad about Finland.
Don’t really know if the sacrifice is worth it.
Time and time again someone suggests this…
I hope it never comes to pass, as free higher education is one of the best things we have in Finland. Giving it up would be total madness.
Can we just leave tuition fees to the USA?…
Definitely good idea. Now you have to pay for universities on your taxes even if you never got accepted into it.
That 8.1 billion deficit will cause a lot more changes than this in the future. The deficit will keep growing, and hard changes will be made.
Unbelievable that this was caused by a single cabinet. Not even a full time government, that.
So Germany tried that about 15-20 years ago. It failed spectacularly, because while the universities were allowed and did charge tuition (up to 500 per semester), they actually weren’t allowed to use the money on anything that was state business to provide: facilities, equipment, staff.
So, while many students would not have minded to pay if it meant receiving better education (more teachers, smaller courses, more course choices for mandatory modules, more courses later in the evening or weekend for flexibility), they minded very much paying for the random shit many universities did for the lack of options on how to use the money (some bought laptops and bicycles for first semesters and gave them away as “immatriculation gifts”).
The result were massive student protests that lead to an abolishment of tuition in Germany.
How is the law in Finland? Isn’t education here state business too? Would universities be allowed to use the money as they see fit and would have students a say in how to use the money?
If you read into it, it makes a lot of sense in a limited situation. A quote from the article: “The rectors were positive about a tuition fee model that would see students pay for their second degrees.” This would be a reasonable expectation for someone doing a second degree in my opinion.
Fuck no.
The Finnish welfare model is unsustainable in the long term, however I would expect that education and healthcare will be the things to remain because it’s a “everyone benefits and needs” element.
It’d be kinda worrisome if they go for education first, rather than redundancies and bureocratic innefficiencies which should be the first to go like none could disagree (that involves firing a lot of the public sector nevertheless), followed by most forms of “free money” welfare and lowering of many benefits. Going for education first paints a very gray picture, and it’s kind of worrying.
Tuition fees make sense if you only think of education on an individual level. People should themselves be responsible for the investments that they make for their future, no? If you get the benefit, you should also pay the fee.
But this approach overlooks the massive positive externalities that a high national education level provides. First, free higher education increases the pool of available labour force for companies, resulting in better allocation of work for a higher number of socially profitable jobs.
Second, education improves the level of political discussion and understanding, resulting in better justified voting behavior and other political activities. This is true even for degrees with less obvious economic benefits within humanities etc. Different ways of looking at the world gained through education also spread among social groups and through the media, improving collective understanding of society and the world even for people without a certain academic degree. One can think of this as a value in itself, but it also has obvious economic benefits through stabilizing society as conflicts can be resolved through more intellectual means.
Third and most obvious, tuition fees would work to deepen class divides and increase how economical and social status is practically inherited. A richer family can afford to pay for any degree for their children, while less well-of students would need to risk a loan for their degree. That goes against at least my morals, as in practice your expected education (and thus income) level would be highly determined by what kind of a family you are born into. Of course this is the case to some degree today already, as statistically you are much more likely to get a degree if your parents have one, but increasing fees would widen this gap even further. Tuituon fees go against the principle of “equality of opportunities”, let alone equality of outcome, regardless of which you think should rather be the goal of politics.
I’m wouldn’t be opposed to tuition fees on second degrees. These are typically people who’ve already spent time in the working life and are looking to change careers. Charging them wouldn’t be unreasonable, and wouldn’t compromise social mobility.
Before the budget is balanced, a lot of MUCH more painful things will get done, including cuts to things poor people really need. The people most in need will bear most of the pain.
By contrast, here we’d only be taking a little away from people who are already, by definition, doing quite well in life.
Australia has tuition fees and I have heard it being viewed as fair system. Finnish system at the moment is unfeasible on cost side and unfairly transfer wealth to top earning echelons of society when they could pay it themselves.
Now there is game theory sense incentive to study in finland but not stay. Dominant strategy is to leave right after graduation to better paying and-or lower taxes country
Slippery slope for citizens as the wages are low and the high taxes are already in Finland. You would be paying for it twice once with the tuition fee and then the tax when you are working. You shouldn’t have young people starting life in debt.
The question should be asked if why arent the students finishing their studies? What are they doing instead? Are they going to return back to the course?
An educated society is really important especially since your population size is so small. This seems like a way of dividing society which doesn’t seem very Finnish.
If we want keep our whole society competitive, we should offer free education to everyone who wishes it. If we don’t, we’ll get some individuals who are able to study, but on a national level doesn’t contribute that much back to the society, and a whole lot more of those people who skip the education and go work on some basic level jobs with no education needed.
This doesn’t help companies who are dependent of educated workforce. Therefore, not reaching their potential to growth. And that’s not good for the whole society, if progress is hindered because of lack of educated people.
If you give out free buckets, you’re gonna have people standing in line for buckets that they dont actually need.
Same is true for education, or anything else for that matter. Supply and demand.
Same time, it is valuable that anyone can get an education.
I suspect there is balance to be found here. I would add some cost just so people dont spend 7 years in university (or if they want to then atleast pay something for it).
Finland is facing quite big economic headwinds, nothing should be off limits.
There already is a tuition fee in real universities called “ylioppilaskunnan jäsenmaksu”, granted its less than 100 euros a year but real higher education is not free. There is no fee to study in ammattikorkeakoulu, which really should not have been allowed to use ‘university’ in their translated name.
As a non-Fin, I believe that this should pass, at least for non-Fins, regardless of being EU or non-EU citizens.
I don’t think it makes sense for me as a Portuguese having to pay 6k for a Master degree herein Portugal but having the chance to study for free in Finland paid by Finnish tax-payers.
If this idea ever actually comes to pass I’ll have some spicy mail for the people responsible in minecraft
This happens every other year
I feel quite sad about this. Pretty much everything that we have been feeling quite proud in Finland is getting cut. Take for example our healthcare, public transport, etc. To me it would make much more sense to charge full tuition on students who are not graduating on time. However, its quite interesting to see whether and which universities would charge tuition.
They could introduce a progressive fee, for non Finnish/Swedish degree. Students would get a discount or waiver if they prove fluency (native or test)
That would have the added benefits of forcing the universities to manage the fact that many graduates will have a problem without the language if they intend to stay.
Same for non EU, raise the price, and provide a discount on language test result.
In addition, you can also limit the amount of years it take to graduate, and charge a late fee, if you take more years than needed (you lowing for pause of course)
Koulutuksesta ei leikata tai minä menen käyttämään vapauttani protestoida asiaa vastaan >:(
Just a side question, how often do Finns take student loans?
Can goverment give loans to pay tuition fees and write them off if students graduate on time? This will give university some money to improve the quality right away and students some motivation to finish their degree.
As you all know, every year, universities have to write to students literally begging them to finish the remaining credits. Some students are not in a hurry because they want cheaper beer.
Oh boy…
None of the people who think this is a good idea have looked across just 2 neighbours and a small sea; to the UK, where it all started with low tuition, then higher for foreigners, then higher again, and now £20.000+/year for Englishmen. The situation is different in Scotland but…
#history repeats itself, let’s learn from mistakes already made and not get ourselves in obvious slippery slopes while we’re in time
Thinking my kid will have to deal with this does not make me very happy. I want my children to have the same opportunities I had.
Education for the rich people, ‘murican way – f’yeah!
/s
As someone working in such an establishment, I wish they never start charging tuition, as that will just be the same as everything from electricity to water; the prices will go up and up and up and in the end it’ll be tens of thousands per year and fuck you poor people…
Makes you wonder where all your tax money goes to, used to be education and health care etc, doesn’t seem to be so anymore.
After several decades of financial mismanagement eventually you have to face the consequences. There is no such thing as “free” education, health care, child care, and etc. Somebody has to pay for the things so many people have falsely believed to be “free” in Finland or Sweden or Germany or elsewhere in Europe. Finland as almost all European counties is heavily indebted and leveraged due to financial nonsense that took place for decades. They simply cannot keep on borrowing money to pay budgets that are higher than the income from taxes. Taxes are already as high as the can get. Thus, the decision to add tuition fees is the most logical one. I don’t know if teachers or professors want to start working for free, but I don’t think that is possible to keep on this current system otherwise. I also don’t know why so many people write here that they are disappointed. How exactly do they think the huge public sector engine will be maintained otherwise? Money doesn’t grow in trees and somebody has to pay for all the puclic services. Just because a service is public, doesn’t mean it’s “free”.
Norway recently got rid of free education, and now Finland is thinking of a possibility? 🥲 I was thinking of applying to Finnish universities with the hope of getting 50-100% scholarship, and if this bill is passed then my dreams will be shattered.
I would support this, as long as the tution fees stay reasonable.
Say 200-800/year
And I wouldn’t mind if it would be somewhat higher for those that come from a nation that does not provide free / Cheap / equally priced education for Finns.
This is a terrible idea. Didn’t we learn anything from the terrible damage that tuition fees and student loans in the US? Why to copy that!?
No thanks. Taxation in Finland is already at such a high level that removing free education, which is one of the main pros of the tax rate, is insane.
It doesn’t need to be free for everyone. It could be income based.
I am finish. If they do this I will live and make sure my children are not born here. It’s a sign that things will continue down hill and I won’t live in false hopes that will continue to promise
No. A bad move and politically I’m often right-of-centre.
I’ve less of a problem with fees in principle for non-Finns (but can see benefits in return too) but we should not make educating our youngsters a class issue. It should be a merit-only thing. You have the smarts regardless of income & background.
The Yle/STT article fails to clarify that this is not the official position or suggestion of the Finance Ministry (Treasury) and the minister.
Instead, it’s a proposal listing all potential budget saving/expanding measures prepared by the ministry staff, the career officials and experts, giving one fiscal estimate of the cuts needed in the next two government terms.
Sloppy journalism, as usual.
Moreover, the proposal is inherently based on the austerity model, and not every economist agrees with that approach at all. UK for one country provides a warning example of more than a decade of austerity policies: instead of getting more competitive, the economy is falling behind other G7 countries. We never get that kind of both sides, bigger picture discussion in Finnish media.
Another Yle piece today on the raging inflation didn’t give any figures for other European countries for comparison. That would have been obvious context information. Finland’s inflation is actually the third lowest in the eurozone, better than EU average. But I guess we can’t have positive things like that included in the news. Because reasons.
37 comments
I wonder if this will also be improving the relocation from people to remote areas, as I assume those institutions will most likely won’t will charging for it.
But also, if doing so, will affect the common idealization of high quality and free education that exists abroad about Finland.
Don’t really know if the sacrifice is worth it.
Time and time again someone suggests this…
I hope it never comes to pass, as free higher education is one of the best things we have in Finland. Giving it up would be total madness.
Can we just leave tuition fees to the USA?…
Definitely good idea. Now you have to pay for universities on your taxes even if you never got accepted into it.
That 8.1 billion deficit will cause a lot more changes than this in the future. The deficit will keep growing, and hard changes will be made.
Unbelievable that this was caused by a single cabinet. Not even a full time government, that.
So Germany tried that about 15-20 years ago. It failed spectacularly, because while the universities were allowed and did charge tuition (up to 500 per semester), they actually weren’t allowed to use the money on anything that was state business to provide: facilities, equipment, staff.
So, while many students would not have minded to pay if it meant receiving better education (more teachers, smaller courses, more course choices for mandatory modules, more courses later in the evening or weekend for flexibility), they minded very much paying for the random shit many universities did for the lack of options on how to use the money (some bought laptops and bicycles for first semesters and gave them away as “immatriculation gifts”).
The result were massive student protests that lead to an abolishment of tuition in Germany.
How is the law in Finland? Isn’t education here state business too? Would universities be allowed to use the money as they see fit and would have students a say in how to use the money?
If you read into it, it makes a lot of sense in a limited situation. A quote from the article: “The rectors were positive about a tuition fee model that would see students pay for their second degrees.” This would be a reasonable expectation for someone doing a second degree in my opinion.
Fuck no.
The Finnish welfare model is unsustainable in the long term, however I would expect that education and healthcare will be the things to remain because it’s a “everyone benefits and needs” element.
It’d be kinda worrisome if they go for education first, rather than redundancies and bureocratic innefficiencies which should be the first to go like none could disagree (that involves firing a lot of the public sector nevertheless), followed by most forms of “free money” welfare and lowering of many benefits. Going for education first paints a very gray picture, and it’s kind of worrying.
Tuition fees make sense if you only think of education on an individual level. People should themselves be responsible for the investments that they make for their future, no? If you get the benefit, you should also pay the fee.
But this approach overlooks the massive positive externalities that a high national education level provides. First, free higher education increases the pool of available labour force for companies, resulting in better allocation of work for a higher number of socially profitable jobs.
Second, education improves the level of political discussion and understanding, resulting in better justified voting behavior and other political activities. This is true even for degrees with less obvious economic benefits within humanities etc. Different ways of looking at the world gained through education also spread among social groups and through the media, improving collective understanding of society and the world even for people without a certain academic degree. One can think of this as a value in itself, but it also has obvious economic benefits through stabilizing society as conflicts can be resolved through more intellectual means.
Third and most obvious, tuition fees would work to deepen class divides and increase how economical and social status is practically inherited. A richer family can afford to pay for any degree for their children, while less well-of students would need to risk a loan for their degree. That goes against at least my morals, as in practice your expected education (and thus income) level would be highly determined by what kind of a family you are born into. Of course this is the case to some degree today already, as statistically you are much more likely to get a degree if your parents have one, but increasing fees would widen this gap even further. Tuituon fees go against the principle of “equality of opportunities”, let alone equality of outcome, regardless of which you think should rather be the goal of politics.
I’m wouldn’t be opposed to tuition fees on second degrees. These are typically people who’ve already spent time in the working life and are looking to change careers. Charging them wouldn’t be unreasonable, and wouldn’t compromise social mobility.
Before the budget is balanced, a lot of MUCH more painful things will get done, including cuts to things poor people really need. The people most in need will bear most of the pain.
By contrast, here we’d only be taking a little away from people who are already, by definition, doing quite well in life.
Australia has tuition fees and I have heard it being viewed as fair system. Finnish system at the moment is unfeasible on cost side and unfairly transfer wealth to top earning echelons of society when they could pay it themselves.
Now there is game theory sense incentive to study in finland but not stay. Dominant strategy is to leave right after graduation to better paying and-or lower taxes country
Slippery slope for citizens as the wages are low and the high taxes are already in Finland. You would be paying for it twice once with the tuition fee and then the tax when you are working. You shouldn’t have young people starting life in debt.
The question should be asked if why arent the students finishing their studies? What are they doing instead? Are they going to return back to the course?
An educated society is really important especially since your population size is so small. This seems like a way of dividing society which doesn’t seem very Finnish.
If we want keep our whole society competitive, we should offer free education to everyone who wishes it. If we don’t, we’ll get some individuals who are able to study, but on a national level doesn’t contribute that much back to the society, and a whole lot more of those people who skip the education and go work on some basic level jobs with no education needed.
This doesn’t help companies who are dependent of educated workforce. Therefore, not reaching their potential to growth. And that’s not good for the whole society, if progress is hindered because of lack of educated people.
If you give out free buckets, you’re gonna have people standing in line for buckets that they dont actually need.
Same is true for education, or anything else for that matter. Supply and demand.
Same time, it is valuable that anyone can get an education.
I suspect there is balance to be found here. I would add some cost just so people dont spend 7 years in university (or if they want to then atleast pay something for it).
Finland is facing quite big economic headwinds, nothing should be off limits.
There already is a tuition fee in real universities called “ylioppilaskunnan jäsenmaksu”, granted its less than 100 euros a year but real higher education is not free. There is no fee to study in ammattikorkeakoulu, which really should not have been allowed to use ‘university’ in their translated name.
As a non-Fin, I believe that this should pass, at least for non-Fins, regardless of being EU or non-EU citizens.
I don’t think it makes sense for me as a Portuguese having to pay 6k for a Master degree herein Portugal but having the chance to study for free in Finland paid by Finnish tax-payers.
If this idea ever actually comes to pass I’ll have some spicy mail for the people responsible in minecraft
This happens every other year
I feel quite sad about this. Pretty much everything that we have been feeling quite proud in Finland is getting cut. Take for example our healthcare, public transport, etc. To me it would make much more sense to charge full tuition on students who are not graduating on time. However, its quite interesting to see whether and which universities would charge tuition.
They could introduce a progressive fee, for non Finnish/Swedish degree. Students would get a discount or waiver if they prove fluency (native or test)
That would have the added benefits of forcing the universities to manage the fact that many graduates will have a problem without the language if they intend to stay.
Same for non EU, raise the price, and provide a discount on language test result.
In addition, you can also limit the amount of years it take to graduate, and charge a late fee, if you take more years than needed (you lowing for pause of course)
Koulutuksesta ei leikata tai minä menen käyttämään vapauttani protestoida asiaa vastaan >:(
Just a side question, how often do Finns take student loans?
Can goverment give loans to pay tuition fees and write them off if students graduate on time? This will give university some money to improve the quality right away and students some motivation to finish their degree.
As you all know, every year, universities have to write to students literally begging them to finish the remaining credits. Some students are not in a hurry because they want cheaper beer.
Oh boy…
None of the people who think this is a good idea have looked across just 2 neighbours and a small sea; to the UK, where it all started with low tuition, then higher for foreigners, then higher again, and now £20.000+/year for Englishmen. The situation is different in Scotland but…
#history repeats itself, let’s learn from mistakes already made and not get ourselves in obvious slippery slopes while we’re in time
Thinking my kid will have to deal with this does not make me very happy. I want my children to have the same opportunities I had.
Education for the rich people, ‘murican way – f’yeah!
/s
As someone working in such an establishment, I wish they never start charging tuition, as that will just be the same as everything from electricity to water; the prices will go up and up and up and in the end it’ll be tens of thousands per year and fuck you poor people…
Makes you wonder where all your tax money goes to, used to be education and health care etc, doesn’t seem to be so anymore.
After several decades of financial mismanagement eventually you have to face the consequences. There is no such thing as “free” education, health care, child care, and etc. Somebody has to pay for the things so many people have falsely believed to be “free” in Finland or Sweden or Germany or elsewhere in Europe. Finland as almost all European counties is heavily indebted and leveraged due to financial nonsense that took place for decades. They simply cannot keep on borrowing money to pay budgets that are higher than the income from taxes. Taxes are already as high as the can get. Thus, the decision to add tuition fees is the most logical one. I don’t know if teachers or professors want to start working for free, but I don’t think that is possible to keep on this current system otherwise. I also don’t know why so many people write here that they are disappointed. How exactly do they think the huge public sector engine will be maintained otherwise? Money doesn’t grow in trees and somebody has to pay for all the puclic services. Just because a service is public, doesn’t mean it’s “free”.
Norway recently got rid of free education, and now Finland is thinking of a possibility? 🥲 I was thinking of applying to Finnish universities with the hope of getting 50-100% scholarship, and if this bill is passed then my dreams will be shattered.
I would support this, as long as the tution fees stay reasonable.
Say 200-800/year
And I wouldn’t mind if it would be somewhat higher for those that come from a nation that does not provide free / Cheap / equally priced education for Finns.
This is a terrible idea. Didn’t we learn anything from the terrible damage that tuition fees and student loans in the US? Why to copy that!?
No thanks. Taxation in Finland is already at such a high level that removing free education, which is one of the main pros of the tax rate, is insane.
It doesn’t need to be free for everyone. It could be income based.
I am finish. If they do this I will live and make sure my children are not born here. It’s a sign that things will continue down hill and I won’t live in false hopes that will continue to promise
No. A bad move and politically I’m often right-of-centre.
I’ve less of a problem with fees in principle for non-Finns (but can see benefits in return too) but we should not make educating our youngsters a class issue. It should be a merit-only thing. You have the smarts regardless of income & background.
The Yle/STT article fails to clarify that this is not the official position or suggestion of the Finance Ministry (Treasury) and the minister.
Instead, it’s a proposal listing all potential budget saving/expanding measures prepared by the ministry staff, the career officials and experts, giving one fiscal estimate of the cuts needed in the next two government terms.
Sloppy journalism, as usual.
Moreover, the proposal is inherently based on the austerity model, and not every economist agrees with that approach at all. UK for one country provides a warning example of more than a decade of austerity policies: instead of getting more competitive, the economy is falling behind other G7 countries. We never get that kind of both sides, bigger picture discussion in Finnish media.
Another Yle piece today on the raging inflation didn’t give any figures for other European countries for comparison. That would have been obvious context information. Finland’s inflation is actually the third lowest in the eurozone, better than EU average. But I guess we can’t have positive things like that included in the news. Because reasons.
o