“If we charge one person for stealing we might have to apply that to lots of people. Where does it end?”
I’ve got a master’s in heritage and museum studies from Cambridge – i.e in this entire case study. Every argument is recycled and already shot down. We need to just give them back already.
We all know its the right thing to do, just give them back then they will be toured between museums anyway so its not like the british museum is going to be empty.
That’s a pretty good deal, if I pinched someone’s TV I wouldn’t get it dropped at my house with a plaque so I could use it for a couple of months every few years.
“If we return these things that we stole, we’d have to give back EVERYTHING that we stole and then there would be nothing left.” – Surely the British public isn’t onboard with this argument?
“doing right thing could lead to doing more right things, protest people from country with proud tradition of doing wrong thing”
I was ambivalent about what I had assumed were some little statues before going to the British museum.
As soon as I saw the enormous marble walls of the temple that we had ripped off and shipped back to Blighty, my immediate thought was:
“oh no- we have to give this back”
Possession is 9/10s of the law.
However England came to possess the things in the first place it was done in good faith in agreement with the appropriate authorities in Greece at the time. That’s just too bad for Greece.
Returning the Parthenon statues is popular with the public and MPs in all parties. It’s inevitable at this point. This woman is just squatting to raise her public profile.
[removed]
If England is really for the union then the marbles should be returned to Elgin where they belong
So what?
Make a copy and give them all back, unless the country in question isn’t in a stable state obviously.
Slippery slope is not a valid argument, but I’m sure the minister knows this
And? What do we need artefacts for? Give them back.
Just need to draw up some guidelines under what circumstances it makes sense. You know, do your job.
Good! I went to the Acropolis Museum in Athens recently and the amount of missing artefacts is heinous, plus there is an active campaign to have missing works brought back to their rightful place. Seeing the gaps in the Parthenon in person is infuriating.
Surely the approach is:
– concede that yes, it’s the right thing to do to give them back
– acknowledge that yes, it may reduce the amount of exhibits available
– ask very nicely about loaning back museum items in exchange for money or items other museums may want to exhibit of ours
Yeah, well, Ministers have long demonstrated themselves to be as if Caribbean pirates : Take what you can, give nothing back.
You make some points and although I don’t agree with all of them, I can see your reasoning.
The previous reasons about storage seem not to apply
The unspoken reasons that to return them would set an impossible precident for other objrcts would be unacceptable is probably one of the reality.
To let Greece buy them or even “borrow* them for *temporary” display might someday offer solutions.
It is irrefutable that they exist today in such great condition due to the diligence of British archaeologists.
Why not just make copies and give back the originals? I’m pretty sure most museum visitors won’t care if they’re copies and if you want to study the originals, go to where they are and see the whole thing!
Dippy goes on your around the UK from the natural history museum, why can we not do this with artifacts from other counties?
Return them back and try and build this awesome international community that has a load of artifacts going on tour around the place. Artifacts that just sit in place never really drum up as much interest or excitements all the time. I’m not suggesting for free, heck pay the people’s who’s artifacts they are either though ticket sales or though pre arranged ments, or more likely, both.
Just give people their shit back is a great idea for stable countries but what about unstable countries like Iraq and Afghanistan where history has already been erased because it does not fit Islamic revisionist dogma?
Of course a Tory minister knows all about slippery slopes doesn’t he? You take a couple of quid off an oligarch and pretty soon the Russians are running the country.
I must remember that response if I ever turn over a jewellery shop.
I’ll use this excuse next time I’m in court for Theft..
Sir Humphrey Appleby : Minister, if you block honours pending economies, you might create a dangerous precedent.
James Hacker : You mean that if we do the right thing this time, we might have to do the right thing again next time.
– Yes, Minister
Let’s say this together. They Are Not Our To Keep. We literally need to give back everything that we stole from other countries. How is this still a debate.
Like I do genuinely wonder weather half this stuff was actually stolen or it’s just people reneging on sales like, you can’t have the decedent of the watch maker of a family heirloom watch come and ask for it back, sure some was and that’s not great but at the same time if stuff was acquired fairly then it’s silly to act like we’re evil for not giving back
I think they’re missing a trick here. Give the Parthenon marbles back and turn that gallery into one of a recreation of the buried ship at Sutton Hoo. Have all the items found on display around it. The room is big enough – it would be spectacular
Greece is an allied country (member of NATO), as well as a relatively modern country in which there is no risk of damage to the artefacts. They have a museum built especially for these artefacts right next to the Parthenon, where they are originally from. There is no valid reason not to return to the Greeks, except the possible risk of damage in transit and, if done properly and respectfully, that risk is minimal.
I think they would be better placed at the acropolis, the only shame is the Greeks charge to visit the acropolis, whilst the British museum is free.
They don’t even tour the country london just hoards them, that’s not benefiting the nation
If we’d left them in Greece they’d have used them to build a goat pen.
Yeah ive heard giving things back that belong to other people is often dangerous
I don’t believe in this ‘people should return artefacts which they bought /looted /gifted etc hundred years ago’ thing. It was a different time, different set of morals, ethics. Different situations. It’s done. Get over it.
Besides it was ottoman land at that time, so Turkey has some claim too guess.
“You mean if we do the right thing this time… we might have to do so again?”
British Greek here. I was previously 100% pro returning the marbles to Greece, however I have to admit I’m now pretty torn. I think it’s important to look past nationalist tendencies, remove the emotion from the argument and look at this as shared, human history. The British Museum is one of the world’s greatest institutions, highlighting the magnificence of human civilisation. At the end of the day, more people around the world travel to London than they do to Athens. Part of me feel as though we are doing a better service to humanity by keeping them in the British museum.
I just want to make it clear, I’m not saying I’ve now completely switched my original viewpoint but my perspective has changed a little.
37 comments
“If we charge one person for stealing we might have to apply that to lots of people. Where does it end?”
I’ve got a master’s in heritage and museum studies from Cambridge – i.e in this entire case study. Every argument is recycled and already shot down. We need to just give them back already.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/11/23/9b053/2
No one cares, give them to Greece.
We all know its the right thing to do, just give them back then they will be toured between museums anyway so its not like the british museum is going to be empty.
That’s a pretty good deal, if I pinched someone’s TV I wouldn’t get it dropped at my house with a plaque so I could use it for a couple of months every few years.
“If we return these things that we stole, we’d have to give back EVERYTHING that we stole and then there would be nothing left.” – Surely the British public isn’t onboard with this argument?
“doing right thing could lead to doing more right things, protest people from country with proud tradition of doing wrong thing”
I was ambivalent about what I had assumed were some little statues before going to the British museum.
As soon as I saw the enormous marble walls of the temple that we had ripped off and shipped back to Blighty, my immediate thought was:
“oh no- we have to give this back”
Possession is 9/10s of the law.
However England came to possess the things in the first place it was done in good faith in agreement with the appropriate authorities in Greece at the time. That’s just too bad for Greece.
Returning the Parthenon statues is popular with the public and MPs in all parties. It’s inevitable at this point. This woman is just squatting to raise her public profile.
[removed]
If England is really for the union then the marbles should be returned to Elgin where they belong
So what?
Make a copy and give them all back, unless the country in question isn’t in a stable state obviously.
Slippery slope is not a valid argument, but I’m sure the minister knows this
And? What do we need artefacts for? Give them back.
Just need to draw up some guidelines under what circumstances it makes sense. You know, do your job.
Good! I went to the Acropolis Museum in Athens recently and the amount of missing artefacts is heinous, plus there is an active campaign to have missing works brought back to their rightful place. Seeing the gaps in the Parthenon in person is infuriating.
Surely the approach is:
– concede that yes, it’s the right thing to do to give them back
– acknowledge that yes, it may reduce the amount of exhibits available
– ask very nicely about loaning back museum items in exchange for money or items other museums may want to exhibit of ours
Yeah, well, Ministers have long demonstrated themselves to be as if Caribbean pirates : Take what you can, give nothing back.
You make some points and although I don’t agree with all of them, I can see your reasoning.
The previous reasons about storage seem not to apply
The unspoken reasons that to return them would set an impossible precident for other objrcts would be unacceptable is probably one of the reality.
To let Greece buy them or even “borrow* them for *temporary” display might someday offer solutions.
It is irrefutable that they exist today in such great condition due to the diligence of British archaeologists.
Why not just make copies and give back the originals? I’m pretty sure most museum visitors won’t care if they’re copies and if you want to study the originals, go to where they are and see the whole thing!
Dippy goes on your around the UK from the natural history museum, why can we not do this with artifacts from other counties?
Return them back and try and build this awesome international community that has a load of artifacts going on tour around the place. Artifacts that just sit in place never really drum up as much interest or excitements all the time. I’m not suggesting for free, heck pay the people’s who’s artifacts they are either though ticket sales or though pre arranged ments, or more likely, both.
Just give people their shit back is a great idea for stable countries but what about unstable countries like Iraq and Afghanistan where history has already been erased because it does not fit Islamic revisionist dogma?
Of course a Tory minister knows all about slippery slopes doesn’t he? You take a couple of quid off an oligarch and pretty soon the Russians are running the country.
I must remember that response if I ever turn over a jewellery shop.
I’ll use this excuse next time I’m in court for Theft..
Sir Humphrey Appleby : Minister, if you block honours pending economies, you might create a dangerous precedent.
James Hacker : You mean that if we do the right thing this time, we might have to do the right thing again next time.
– Yes, Minister
Let’s say this together. They Are Not Our To Keep. We literally need to give back everything that we stole from other countries. How is this still a debate.
Like I do genuinely wonder weather half this stuff was actually stolen or it’s just people reneging on sales like, you can’t have the decedent of the watch maker of a family heirloom watch come and ask for it back, sure some was and that’s not great but at the same time if stuff was acquired fairly then it’s silly to act like we’re evil for not giving back
I think they’re missing a trick here. Give the Parthenon marbles back and turn that gallery into one of a recreation of the buried ship at Sutton Hoo. Have all the items found on display around it. The room is big enough – it would be spectacular
Greece is an allied country (member of NATO), as well as a relatively modern country in which there is no risk of damage to the artefacts. They have a museum built especially for these artefacts right next to the Parthenon, where they are originally from. There is no valid reason not to return to the Greeks, except the possible risk of damage in transit and, if done properly and respectfully, that risk is minimal.
I think they would be better placed at the acropolis, the only shame is the Greeks charge to visit the acropolis, whilst the British museum is free.
They don’t even tour the country london just hoards them, that’s not benefiting the nation
If we’d left them in Greece they’d have used them to build a goat pen.
Yeah ive heard giving things back that belong to other people is often dangerous
I don’t believe in this ‘people should return artefacts which they bought /looted /gifted etc hundred years ago’ thing. It was a different time, different set of morals, ethics. Different situations. It’s done. Get over it.
Besides it was ottoman land at that time, so Turkey has some claim too guess.
“You mean if we do the right thing this time… we might have to do so again?”
British Greek here. I was previously 100% pro returning the marbles to Greece, however I have to admit I’m now pretty torn. I think it’s important to look past nationalist tendencies, remove the emotion from the argument and look at this as shared, human history. The British Museum is one of the world’s greatest institutions, highlighting the magnificence of human civilisation. At the end of the day, more people around the world travel to London than they do to Athens. Part of me feel as though we are doing a better service to humanity by keeping them in the British museum.
I just want to make it clear, I’m not saying I’ve now completely switched my original viewpoint but my perspective has changed a little.