It’s essentially an attempt to say “here are the potential trade offs” and “here’s how policy makers could go about studying them, for example in a pilot scheme”.
“The report raises concerns that it could lead to some people withdrawing from the labour market.”
Haha, no shit.
So, UBI income to all, paid for by tax, income neutral except for the removal of bureaucracy thats currently needed to manage unemployment benefits and tracking and enforcement.
No suprise.
So I’d be paying 40% tax, but getting back ~€15k pa from UBI. I can see the appeal.
Assuming every worker would also be getting an extra €14,400 per year(€1,200 per month) and the limit for 20% tax before credits applied is €8,000, everyone would have more income but lower paid workers would see the largest increase.
So 40-50pc tax, plus USC at 8%, plus PRSI at 4%, ya, no shit people would stop working. So that’s potentially over 60% tax on ALL income for the higher brackets.
Anyone on a high ish wage in a mobile job would leave the country, good chance I would at them rates, crazy to think people will just accept nearly 2/3 of every penny they earn being taken from them
All the complainers saying that we should try some radical ideas like the Nordic countries are now complaining that we’re considering a radical idea.
What UBI and decriminalisation of weed do best is reducing the cost of enforcement generally. Like if everyone in the country gets X amount of money by default and working adds money to that you don’t need to worry about enforcement or even college grants…etc. Reducing waste in government should be the first option for everything instead of increasing enforcement or bureaucracy. Even just automation of certain tasks in government should be easier, like for example if I want to get glasses for free, the government will give them to me but I have to login to the social welfare site, click apply and then it will automatically approve me. Why not just have that be at point of sale and not have layers you have to go through and actually knowing that support is available. Reduce friction and reduce cost, remove unnecessary shit. It is incredibly simple.
UBI itself actually tracks with the 4 day work week idea as well. 4 day work week only works well because people cut out meetings, cut out enforcement of shit they don’t need and generally people are much happier for it.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Keep your UBI and just give me a 4 day work week.
If I’m understanding this right, that’s tax on your pay **after** your own UBI, so this headline is fairly misleading.
Funny how the list of likely benefits is quietly tucked into the latter half of the article, because they seem pretty notable.
I’m agnostic on the subject until I’ve sat down and looked at the costs vs benefits, but there’s no mistaking the slant on this presentation of it here.
This was talk of tin-foil hat donning conspiracy buffs a few years ago.
So, based on what has been becoming very apparent in recent years.. There will be more steps towards a complete digital currency next, and a potential social score system like China in a few years?
i mean.. What’s wrong with heavily taxing the rich, corporate entities, and introducing major tax reliefs for low earners? Bringing energy back into the public realm, rather than selling it to international price gougers, and a whole swathe of other more reasonable approaches..
Oh, right, I forgot.. We have a right wing, neoliberal government who only represent the rich.
No one wants to disrupt the generous welfare system. This isn’t going to get people working again.
As soon as you earn enough to be sustainable you are entitled to nothing in this country. I get to pay more tax and live week to week for it. While my sister lives in a brand new citywest apartment and goes on multiple holidays a year on FIS.
‘A Green Party plan.’
Ah yes, of course.
Genuine question which might be outside of the scope of this reddit to answer. On paper it looks good right, I think everyone deserves to live comfortably, you read stories on here of people working full time jobs in penny’s but they can barely afford rent and food. Someone working 40hrs a week should surely have money for enjoyment, we need people to do entry level jobs.
But.
What stops this from happening:
Basic income 15k a year. Economy realizes people have more money, they put up prices for basic stuff. Suddenly 15k a year is a complete struggle fest (already would be, in some places 70% of that is rent for the year). So then people can’t live on it and we need to up basic income again to say 20k. Then the shops put up prices again. How does it stop? Its basically whats happening now without the basic income bit, but I don’t see how basic income helps or hinders the situation. Is this just a capitalist hellscape spiraling, how do we all get out of this cycle back to semi affordable shit for everyone?
It’d be great to have a payment like this while you’re in a retail or hospitality job. If you’re not desperate and stuck in the job, more people could tell Karen to go fuck herself.
well i’m already paying 52%…so i’d be left with 8% ??
So high earners will get stung.
I’m nowhere near a high earner.
So yeah let’s do it. Legalise weed too and tax the hell out of it.
Fantasy economics. Everyone gets magic money and no one pays for it
You know as soon as UBI is implemented, you’ll have parasitic landlords raise rents proportionately. “But muh rent controls!?” Everytime they find a work around for this, they’ll change ownership on it, take the capital gains tax hit, and reabsorb that loss by increased asset sale price. Then, before you know it, Irish property doubles in price in under for years. UBI won’t fix housing. Only building housing will fix housing.
What about workers who already face 40% tax 🤔
Man I love the idea of folks getting more money and everyone benefiting.
I can’t imagine we’d keep the well performing sectors of the economy with such a high level of tax.
Purchasing power for well paid jobs would drop drastically.
Irish civil servants will be implementing this plan so I’m going to assume they’d cock it up horribly, bankrupt the country and somehow get wealthy in the process
Can’t wait to see every business and landlord double or triple the prices of goods and rent in Ireland purely because they knew people have more money. Its the Irish way.
“Do you want more inflation Lana? Because that’s how you get more inflation!”
Great now instead of paying an actual tax rate of 45% I can pay even more?? Some people in this country won’t be happy until this country is Cuba.
Get your hands off other peoples’ money!
This needs to 100% happen. Stop the hoops for people on welfare, stop the discrimination on what your payment is. Stop the stress of timeframes, stop the wasted money checking if the junkie sent out enough CV’s etc.
And this will also encourage people to work more than having a jobseekers payment. Because there is no “well why would I work for €400 when I can get over €200 for doing nothing” when everything you get paid is a big bonus on top of your existing payment. You get €1,200 a month already, but you can get another €1,200 if you go and get a job.
I would say though, there should be a limit on where the UBI cuts off at. We don’t need someone on 200k a year collecting his free 15k.
My conspiracy theory is that this will happen in our lifetime because there isn’t enough work in a post-industrial society.
For UBI to work you have to tax the means of production. While at the moment that means workers, it also means taxing the hourly / monthly “Labour” of software and machines.
There will be more and more machines to tax while they take jobs from the Labour force. Corporation taxes will have to be a LOT higher for UBI to work.
If you are paying for UBI through income tax alone, then there’s a very simple formula. Those who are earning less than the median income will gain money, those earning more will lose money.
It’s as simple as that. Forget about the tax rate numbers, they aren’t important.
36 comments
I’m really not sold on UBI.
I want the money but no extra taxes. Make it happen Leo baby!!!
Assessing corporate taxes fully, on all businesses that declare profits here, regardless of size, would go a long way towards funding UBI.
Government departments minimising waste and maximising value when spending the tax take would go a long way towards funding UBI.
Both combined, would pay for UBI.
No, thank you.
Here’s the actual paper: https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/RS146_0.pdf
It’s essentially an attempt to say “here are the potential trade offs” and “here’s how policy makers could go about studying them, for example in a pilot scheme”.
“The report raises concerns that it could lead to some people withdrawing from the labour market.”
Haha, no shit.
So, UBI income to all, paid for by tax, income neutral except for the removal of bureaucracy thats currently needed to manage unemployment benefits and tracking and enforcement.
No suprise.
So I’d be paying 40% tax, but getting back ~€15k pa from UBI. I can see the appeal.
Assuming every worker would also be getting an extra €14,400 per year(€1,200 per month) and the limit for 20% tax before credits applied is €8,000, everyone would have more income but lower paid workers would see the largest increase.
So 40-50pc tax, plus USC at 8%, plus PRSI at 4%, ya, no shit people would stop working. So that’s potentially over 60% tax on ALL income for the higher brackets.
Anyone on a high ish wage in a mobile job would leave the country, good chance I would at them rates, crazy to think people will just accept nearly 2/3 of every penny they earn being taken from them
All the complainers saying that we should try some radical ideas like the Nordic countries are now complaining that we’re considering a radical idea.
What UBI and decriminalisation of weed do best is reducing the cost of enforcement generally. Like if everyone in the country gets X amount of money by default and working adds money to that you don’t need to worry about enforcement or even college grants…etc. Reducing waste in government should be the first option for everything instead of increasing enforcement or bureaucracy. Even just automation of certain tasks in government should be easier, like for example if I want to get glasses for free, the government will give them to me but I have to login to the social welfare site, click apply and then it will automatically approve me. Why not just have that be at point of sale and not have layers you have to go through and actually knowing that support is available. Reduce friction and reduce cost, remove unnecessary shit. It is incredibly simple.
UBI itself actually tracks with the 4 day work week idea as well. 4 day work week only works well because people cut out meetings, cut out enforcement of shit they don’t need and generally people are much happier for it.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Keep your UBI and just give me a 4 day work week.
If I’m understanding this right, that’s tax on your pay **after** your own UBI, so this headline is fairly misleading.
Funny how the list of likely benefits is quietly tucked into the latter half of the article, because they seem pretty notable.
I’m agnostic on the subject until I’ve sat down and looked at the costs vs benefits, but there’s no mistaking the slant on this presentation of it here.
This was talk of tin-foil hat donning conspiracy buffs a few years ago.
So, based on what has been becoming very apparent in recent years.. There will be more steps towards a complete digital currency next, and a potential social score system like China in a few years?
i mean.. What’s wrong with heavily taxing the rich, corporate entities, and introducing major tax reliefs for low earners? Bringing energy back into the public realm, rather than selling it to international price gougers, and a whole swathe of other more reasonable approaches..
Oh, right, I forgot.. We have a right wing, neoliberal government who only represent the rich.
No one wants to disrupt the generous welfare system. This isn’t going to get people working again.
As soon as you earn enough to be sustainable you are entitled to nothing in this country. I get to pay more tax and live week to week for it. While my sister lives in a brand new citywest apartment and goes on multiple holidays a year on FIS.
‘A Green Party plan.’
Ah yes, of course.
Genuine question which might be outside of the scope of this reddit to answer. On paper it looks good right, I think everyone deserves to live comfortably, you read stories on here of people working full time jobs in penny’s but they can barely afford rent and food. Someone working 40hrs a week should surely have money for enjoyment, we need people to do entry level jobs.
But.
What stops this from happening:
Basic income 15k a year. Economy realizes people have more money, they put up prices for basic stuff. Suddenly 15k a year is a complete struggle fest (already would be, in some places 70% of that is rent for the year). So then people can’t live on it and we need to up basic income again to say 20k. Then the shops put up prices again. How does it stop? Its basically whats happening now without the basic income bit, but I don’t see how basic income helps or hinders the situation. Is this just a capitalist hellscape spiraling, how do we all get out of this cycle back to semi affordable shit for everyone?
It’d be great to have a payment like this while you’re in a retail or hospitality job. If you’re not desperate and stuck in the job, more people could tell Karen to go fuck herself.
well i’m already paying 52%…so i’d be left with 8% ??
So high earners will get stung.
I’m nowhere near a high earner.
So yeah let’s do it. Legalise weed too and tax the hell out of it.
Fantasy economics. Everyone gets magic money and no one pays for it
You know as soon as UBI is implemented, you’ll have parasitic landlords raise rents proportionately. “But muh rent controls!?” Everytime they find a work around for this, they’ll change ownership on it, take the capital gains tax hit, and reabsorb that loss by increased asset sale price. Then, before you know it, Irish property doubles in price in under for years. UBI won’t fix housing. Only building housing will fix housing.
What about workers who already face 40% tax 🤔
Man I love the idea of folks getting more money and everyone benefiting.
I can’t imagine we’d keep the well performing sectors of the economy with such a high level of tax.
Purchasing power for well paid jobs would drop drastically.
Irish civil servants will be implementing this plan so I’m going to assume they’d cock it up horribly, bankrupt the country and somehow get wealthy in the process
Can’t wait to see every business and landlord double or triple the prices of goods and rent in Ireland purely because they knew people have more money. Its the Irish way.
“Do you want more inflation Lana? Because that’s how you get more inflation!”
Great now instead of paying an actual tax rate of 45% I can pay even more?? Some people in this country won’t be happy until this country is Cuba.
Get your hands off other peoples’ money!
This needs to 100% happen. Stop the hoops for people on welfare, stop the discrimination on what your payment is. Stop the stress of timeframes, stop the wasted money checking if the junkie sent out enough CV’s etc.
And this will also encourage people to work more than having a jobseekers payment. Because there is no “well why would I work for €400 when I can get over €200 for doing nothing” when everything you get paid is a big bonus on top of your existing payment. You get €1,200 a month already, but you can get another €1,200 if you go and get a job.
I would say though, there should be a limit on where the UBI cuts off at. We don’t need someone on 200k a year collecting his free 15k.
My conspiracy theory is that this will happen in our lifetime because there isn’t enough work in a post-industrial society.
For UBI to work you have to tax the means of production. While at the moment that means workers, it also means taxing the hourly / monthly “Labour” of software and machines.
There will be more and more machines to tax while they take jobs from the Labour force. Corporation taxes will have to be a LOT higher for UBI to work.
If you are paying for UBI through income tax alone, then there’s a very simple formula. Those who are earning less than the median income will gain money, those earning more will lose money.
It’s as simple as that. Forget about the tax rate numbers, they aren’t important.